Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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Damn, why did I have to open this thread again. I drank my one and only bottle of the original (2008) last summer and have had this on my want list for some time anyway. Looks like I'll be brewing this up in March when my pipeline allows it...
 
I brewed the New World Recipe twice last year with the second one just getting finished. The second time I used WLP550 instead of 530 and liked the results better, seemed to have a bigger yeast profile. It will be one of the first beers I brew this spring, great recipe with either yeast.
 
For brewing this the second time (1st time had no temp control, turned into banana beer), I think I am going to stick with your original recipe grain bill but do a slightly smaller starter as you had menitoned. Last time i did a big stir plate starter I couldn't decant it, after 24 hours in the fridge it was still making bubbles so there was plenty still suspended.

Wouldn't the 3lb of candi syrup up your OG, and thus throw off you ABV away from the actual Westy? I was thinking of going with D2 rather than D1, is easier to get a hold of where I am, would this be ill-advised? Trying to make it as close to the Westy as possible.
 
Stan wrote a response to a thread, (I'll dig it up), stating he thought the sugars were created in house. I think he used the term 'brown sugar' as this is the term the monks use but qualified it in the thread as 'candi syrup'. I don't think I mentioned it was in BLAM did I?

Based on the 2 W12's I've evaluated, I have reservations about the syrup ingredient being common "Belgian Candi Syrup" as distributed here in the US. I have always found the flavor profile notably off with both D and D2 syrups. Many have tried and failed but maybe its time to try another approach to "authentic" Belgian Abbey syrups?
 
Thanks Hermit,

"Vistflaytren" is indeed the correct Flemish pronunciation...

To pronounce this beer as the French or British do "Westflayteren" seems like a sort of injustice, (as good as the ale truly is).
 
Yep, and Westvleteren will not divulge the secrets of the sugar sources so we do not know.
If you want to get that anal though it is impossible for anyone to "clone" a real Westvleteren 12 because nobody has the exact same brewery setup as them, the same fermenter geometry, barometric pressure of their brewing facility, altitude, magnetic fields from the earths core, etc etc etc so we might as well not even try right? @_@

Given how much time it takes to make dark candi syrup I doubt they do it themselves, it would be cheaper/easier/more consistent for them to buy it from somebody who manufactures it in the volumes they need.

However I have found a combination of D1 and D2 create the necessary flavor combination that an actual bottle has. Either of them alone have different things lacking. A lot of other people I know who brew Westy style quads have also come to this conclusion.
I have never had a homemade candi syrup that tastes anything close to what D1 / D2 taste like.
 
If you want to get that anal though it is impossible for anyone to "clone" a real Westvleteren 12
Click to expand...

I have never had a homemade candi syrup that tastes anything close to what D1 / D2 taste like.
Click to expand...

We have produced an exact replica of D2 and are quickly exceeding the import quality in our testing. These 'superior' syrups have more intense and fresh flavors than the imports using natural ingredients and methods. What we can tell you is that the "candy making by-product" description for Candi Syrups is probably a ruse. It's been a year in the making and close to 800 lbs of sugar trials, but well worth it.

I think adjuncts are as important as careful method and malt selection. Compromise is fine but just not when it comes to Belgian Ale's.
 
That's pretty intense. You planning some sort of business venture with that stuff? Or can you divulge techniques?
 
If you've got some good stuff I'd be more than happy to listen to how its made or try some of it out myself!
 
Skyforger said:
That's pretty intense. You planning some sort of business venture with that stuff? Or can you divulge techniques?
Click to expand...

Yes, we are planning to provide a commercial product and are soliciting equipment bids and designing production engineering now. I think American brewers deserve a consistent product that is always available and high quality. As we progress we'll keep all of the boards informed. Some free 1 lb carafes of our products will also be made available for the craft industry and home brewers to trial.
 
saq said:
If you've got some good stuff I'd be more than happy to listen to how its made or try some of it out myself!
Click to expand...

saq, certainly. When we begin production we will also offer sample 1 lb carafe's of our three initial syrups. We will be glad to send out samples to you.

Although planning and marketing will be ongoing we will only ask for recipients to pay flat-rate shipping charges for the free sample pack (3 lbs of syrup per flat rate box...$5-6).

We'll keep all of the brewing boards informed.
 
Since_Uuz_Up said:
saq, certainly. When we begin production we will also offer sample 1 lb tetra-packs of our three initial syrups. We will be glad to send out samples to you.

Although planning and marketing will be ongoing we will only ask for recipients to pay flat-rate shipping charges for the samples (3 lbs of syrup per flat rate box...$5-6).

We'll keep all of the brewing boards informed.
Click to expand...

Nice, I'm down for brewing another batch and letting you know how it turns out.
What are the details on your product you are aiming for? SRM? Flavor profile?
 
Candi Syrups cannot be done with standard kitchen equipment. We tried dozens of permutations using stove top methods and simply could not approximate D2, (the most difficult by far). Without discussing the process in too much detail, (we've spent a fair amount of capital doing this), we use only 3 natural ingredients. We also went through quite a few Maillard catalysts all of which did "work" but the compounds produced were either a mismatch or in the wrong mole density, (my brother-in-law's words not mine). We found only one which provided the flavor profile that matched up and even exceeded our expectations.

Since I'm an analyst not a chemist and also a home brewer, (6 year anniversary next week!), my job has been to set up the permutation trials then test the syrups in Belgian brews. In a month we'll have our Westvletern 12 trial clones ready to taste, (first one ended too high FG at 1.0194).
 
I'm glad to hear about this. I've taken to making my own stovetop maillard syrups and have gotten good flavors, but I'd love to have the option of having something more consistent and/or authentic.
 
saq said:
Nice, I'm down for brewing another batch and letting you know how it turns out.
What are the details on your product you are aiming for? SRM? Flavor profile?
Click to expand...

saq, that's the interesting part. We have the ability to target SRM exactly based on the thermal process we've trialed. We will likely not be naming our Syrups after the Belgian imports. The SRM will initially be slightly darker by design. The D2 will become D180 at 180 SRM. D1 will become D90 as expected.

Flavor profiles will be richer and more up front on the palate. They have dried-fruit, fig, prune, caramel, dark-toffee, coffee, and dark chocolate flavors.

Also, we've found that the flavor profiles are so rich that you can use 15%-20% less syrup if you choose and still get the intense flavor profile. This will give the home-brewer more leeway if the gravity comes up a point or two high due to an unexpected bump in BH efficiency.
 
Skyforger said:
I'm glad to hear about this. I've taken to making my own stovetop maillard syrups and have gotten good flavors, but I'd love to have the option of having something more consistent and/or authentic.
Click to expand...

I hope I didn't mis-speak. Certainly very flavorful syrups can be made on the stove-top and they do make fine beer but there are a number of issues and problems related to these. We hope our syrups will be an eye opener and a means to up the stakes in the 16E category.
 
I'm planning on brewing this next week although I'm not sure which recipe I'm going to use. Have people been brewing the new world or the traditional? They seem so very different. It's surprising to me that they produce similar beers. I guess it's surprising to me in general that many belgian brewers have pretty simple recipes in terms of malts used but end up with such complex flavors.
 
gio said:
I'm planning on brewing this next week although I'm not sure which recipe I'm going to use. Have people been brewing the new world or the traditional? They seem so very different. It's surprising to me that they produce similar beers. I guess it's surprising to me in general that many belgian brewers have pretty simple recipes in terms of malts used but end up with such complex flavors.
Click to expand...

saq would be the expert on this but we brewed the Pious Traditional recipe due to its closer-to-Abbey authenticity but I must admit the time and effort this HBT team did on the Pious New World was impressive. If fermentation temp control and ramping is possible on your setup the simple grain bill will result in an intensely complex brew. We built up a 3rd generation Westmalle from a slant and under-pitched a little. Now that we have this sighted in, the FG should be exact.

saq can better give you the pros and cons of each.
 
Since_Uuz_Up said:
saq would be the expert on this but I brewed the Pious because of its closer-to-Abbey authenticity but I must admit the time and effort this HBT team did on the Traditional was impressive. That being said, if fermentation temp control and ramping is possible on your setup I would always lean toward the Pious recipe. To me it is a remarkably simple grain bill that results in an intensely complex brew. I built up a 3rd generation Westmalle from a slant and under-pitched a little too much. Now that I've got this sighted in, my next batch should be spot on.

saq, can better give you the pros and cons of each.
Click to expand...

I assume you are talking about the traditional, and not the new world? Both recipes seem to be called "the pious"? Both have the same fermentation schedule. Or is there another recipe in this thread that I have missed?

Right now I am leaning towards the pious new world. I can do the ramping that is neceassary. I ferment in my bedroom, which I keep at 64 degrees. I ramp up the heat by keeping the fermenter in my bedroom closet with a space heater and by adjusting the thermo on the heater, and the amount I open on the door on my closet, I can control the temp pretty accurately. I used it with some success on my ommegang clone which I started at 68 and slowly raised to the high 70s.

I can't mash more than 10lbs of grain unfortunately, so I'm going to convert one of the recipes to a partial mash, probably with 10lbs grain and 3.5lbs pilsner DME (late addition). Hopefully it will still taste somewhat authentic. I'm debating halving the recipe and starting with a smaller batch so I can go AG but if this beer turns out good, it will go fast and I know I will regret not having made more.
 
Since_Uuz_Up said:
I hope I didn't mis-speak. Certainly very flavorful syrups can be made on the stove-top and they do make fine beer. We hope ours will be an eye opener and cause for the Belgians to begin taste testing "American" Belgian Ales!
Click to expand...

I don't think you mis-spoke. I wasn't complaining about the quality of the syrups I make at home, I'm just curious to see what sort of different effects I could get from something like you describe.
 
gio said:
I assume you are talking about the traditional, and not the new world? Both recipes seem to be called "the pious"? Both have the same fermentation schedule. Or is there another recipe in this thread that I have missed? .
Click to expand...

Yes, you're right, (-1 for me). The Pious Traditional was the recipe I was attempting to reference. We haven't tested the Pious New World. The Traditional really surprised us with its complexity using only 2 grains in the bill. I think following saq's advice using D2 is an important factor.

Having a stir-plate that can handle 1.5L - 2L starters is probably another key factor. We under-pitched a little too radically at first but WLP530 seems to be holding up well in 10% ABV.
 
After checking the gravity on our test of the Traditional recipe, (a batch that I had written off), it looks like good the gravity is moving. After nearly 3 weeks in what appeared to be a stuck fermentation at 1.020 the gravity has edged down to 1.015 and has added some nice pear flavors to the already complex mix. I'm holding the temp at 69-70F for another week to see if the gravity edges down to target. Has anyone else experienced this with a low pitch Westmalle starter?
 
No, even with a smaller starter the beer ferments out pretty completely in a week if you let it get hot enough. If you do not get it hot enough you will not get the necessary flavor profile and your attenuation will be lower.
 
Greetings everyone. First time poster, long time reader.

I brewed the New World recipe about a week ago (smaller batch, 16 liter) and hit a higher efficiency then I expected. I didnt adjust with extra water which made me end up with a gravity of 1.098. I pitched a 2L starter into (that had 2 jars of WLP530 in it just to be on the safe side).

After 5 days in the fermenter at 80-81F I took a sample and read 1.030. Any suggestions from here? Should I continue with the same temperature or lower it to 65-70? Will a longer fermentation with a high fermentation temperature hurt the beer?
 
Hey guys, quick update on my brew. Every couple bottles I get one that is VERY fruity and is overwhelmingly banana in both aroma and taste. I think I let mine get too hot. Am I on the right track for thinking that, or am I crazy?
 
Gorbi,
If its not at 1.018 I'd let it sit in the fermenter warm for a few more days and let it sit. Leaving it at ~80f for an extended period of time isn't going to hurt.

victorzamora,
If not all of your bottles are coming out the same you are lacking in proper sanitation techniques somewhere in your process and you are getting an infection.
 
I'm going to brew the traditional version this weekend. I was going to convert to a partial mash (9.5lb of grain and 4lb of DME) but I figured it would be better if I just did a smaller AG batch.

I'm going to cut the recipe down to 60% and make 3.3 gallons using 9.6lb of grain and 1.8lb D2. I'll primary in a 5 gallon carboy and secondary in a 3 gallon.

This will be my first attempt at a decoction mash. I understand the concept but I'm unsure of the times involved. When you remove mash to boil it, how long do you boil it for? It seems this can vary from 0 to an hour or more and it doesn't say how long in the recipe. Finally, am I correctly in assuming there is no mash out step since I don't see it mentioned and I should sparge immediately when the mash is complete?
 
saq said:
No, even with a smaller starter the beer ferments out pretty completely in a week if you let it get hot enough. If you do not get it hot enough you will not get the necessary flavor profile and your attenuation will be lower.
Click to expand...

Not sure I buy that entirely.

We initially had the temps up to 82-83 per BLAM, (5 days), developing some interesting flavors. The following week lower temps added fresh pear-like flavors at 70-71F. The FG is edging down slowly to target but it's getting there. We're holding it at room temp since the complex flavor profile is well-established already. Holding at higher-than-spec temps after a week to get the FG down is probably risking heavy banana phenols. Better to let Westmalle yeast ease the gravity down at lower final temps, (took us 3 weeks to get to 1.014 but it's still moving down and the flavors/aromas are a surprising blend of fruit). We've used the Westmalle strain quite a bit over the years and it's pretty tolerant of alcohol at this level.
 
you guys could just buy it...
http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=346&pid=342

or another company
http://www.candico.be/index2.htm

other market names>
Primesuc - Siromix S75 - Siromix B12 - Belgogluc HM70

-
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Siromix+S75&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Siromix+B12&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Belgogluc+HM70&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame][/QUOTE]
 
Houblon said:
you guys could just buy it...
http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=346&pid=342

or another company
http://www.candico.be/index2.htm

other market names>
Primesuc - Siromix S75 - Siromix B12 - Belgogluc HM70
Click to expand...

After having tasted a bottle of dark kandij siroop last year, (182 SRM), I knew the US imports were not up to par. The down side: shipping syrups from Holland and Belgium is crazy-prohibitive. For some reason the US Postal system will not receive foreign liquids for shipment inside the US. Liquids have to ship FedEx, UPS, etc. and the cost strays way out of bounds from there. Another problem we ran into is that even with 3rd party shippers the parcel gets hung in customs, (every time). These are a few of the due-diligence reasons we decided to take the time and money to replicate the genuine syrups and offer it here in the US. In addition we'll also be offering a line of traditional American brewing syrups for Porters and higher gravity Stouts among others.

More coming this Fall...
 
Here is the modified version for 3.3 gallons of the traditional recipe that I am going to brew this weekend (I can't do AG with more than 10lbs of grain):

4.8lbs Belgian Pale Malt
4.8lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt
1.8lbs D2 Belgian Candi Syrup (5 min)
5 AAU Northern Brewer (90min)
2.5 AAU Styrian Goldings (20min)
0.75 AAU Hallertauer Hersbrucker (20min)
IBU: 36.87
SRM: 33.8
OG: 1.092
Boil Size: 4.5 gallons
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 3.3 gallons

Decoction Mash:
Add 19.6 qts water @ 141 to 9.6lbs grain for protein rest @ 132 for 10min
Decoct 5.2 qts mash and boil it for sacch rest @ 151 for 30 min
Decoct 2.85 qts mash and boil it for sacch rest @ 159 for 30 min

Chill to 65 and then pitch Wyeast 3787, ferment in 5 gallon carboy, let rise to 82, hold until SG is 1.018, chill back down to 65. Seconday for 6-8 weeks in 3 gallon carboy @50. Re-pitch yeast and bottle (carb to 3 vols??) or keg and force carb.
 
gio said:
Here is the modified version for 3.3 gallons of the traditional recipe that I am going to brew this weekend (I can't do AG with more than 10lbs of grain):

4.8lbs Belgian Pale Malt
4.8lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt
1.8lbs D2 Belgian Candi Syrup (5 min)
5 AAU Northern Brewer (90min)
2.5 AAU Styrian Goldings (20min)
0.75 AAU Hallertauer Hersbrucker (20min)
IBU: 36.87
SRM: 33.8
OG: 1.092
Boil Size: 4.5 gallons
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 3.3 gallons

Decoction Mash:
Add 19.6 qts water @ 141 to 9.6lbs grain for protein rest @ 132 for 10min
Decoct 5.2 qts mash and boil it for sacch rest @ 151 for 30 min
Decoct 2.85 qts mash and boil it for sacch rest @ 159 for 30 min

Chill to 65 and then pitch Wyeast 3787, ferment in 5 gallon carboy, let rise to 82, hold until SG is 1.018, chill back down to 65. Seconday for 6-8 weeks in 3 gallon carboy @50. Re-pitch yeast and bottle (carb to 3 vols??) or keg and force carb.
Click to expand...

Nice micro-batch! This may be minor but we use Brewers Gold rather than Northern Brewer for bittering. Brewers Gold, (grown in nearby Poperinge), is arguably the actual bittering hops for Westvleteren 12, (with due respect to Stan Heironomous). Also, a protein rest may not be necessary. Both the Pils and Pale are well-modified malts.

OLT, the higher saccharification temp you have may create more longer chain saccharides than will be consumable within the fermentation schedule as defined in this thread. Maybe it's just me but I would ditch the protein rest, lower the first infusion (low-saccharification) to 148F and lower the high saccharification to 154-155F. This way you're better positioned to retain good body and have high fermentability as well. Also, because this is such a high gravity ale it's better to use a flatter fermenter to decrease barometric pressure on the yeast, (although home brewing equipment shouldn't be a problem). Just some passing thoughts.
 
After 14 days in the fermenter I'm stuck at 1.029. It dropped 1 pin in 1 week. I've been able to hold it stable at 80F and 7 days ago I even tried to stir up the yeast cake carefuly. Not sure what to do now. Should I try adding a pack of dry yeast? Getting a bit anxious :(

Gorbi said:
Greetings everyone. First time poster, long time reader.

I brewed the New World recipe about a week ago (smaller batch, 16 liter) and hit a higher efficiency then I expected. I didnt adjust with extra water which made me end up with a gravity of 1.098. I pitched a 2L starter into (that had 2 jars of WLP530 in it just to be on the safe side).

After 5 days in the fermenter at 80-81F I took a sample and read 1.030. Any suggestions from here? Should I continue with the same temperature or lower it to 65-70? Will a longer fermentation with a high fermentation temperature hurt the beer?
Click to expand...
 
16 liters is 4.22 gal. Plug .098 into Mr. Malty, with a yeast pack 1 month old you would need 3 packages and almost 2 liters of starter. 2 Packages and you should have had almost 3 liters of starter.

Sounds like a slight underpitch


The best advice I can give is forget that you brewed it.. try it in 3-5 months.
 
Mine got stuck at 1.040. I pitched a packet of t58 and it started fermenting again and chugged on for a few days. I have not measured the FG yet, plan to bottle it this week.
 
Gorbi said:
After 14 days in the fermenter I'm stuck at 1.029. It dropped 1 pin in 1 week. I've been able to hold it stable at 80F and 7 days ago I even tried to stir up the yeast cake carefuly. Not sure what to do now. Should I try adding a pack of dry yeast? Getting a bit anxious :(
Click to expand...

This recipe has been notorious for slow fermentation and I'm not convinced it's supposed to be fast fermentation given the OG and the phenols in such a complex brew. The best advice I've gotten so far was from Jamil. He and Chris White (White Labs, same guy), wrote the book on beer fermentation (literally). Since this is a brew well worth saving and the added time will actually enhance the quality of the finished product don't sweat it. You're still ok. If you need to re-pitch, (which is fine), then here's the advice that worked for me on one stubborn batch. Jamil's email went something like this:

1. Re-culture a clean stir-plate starter of Westmalle WLP 530...(Jamil suggested using a lager and it does make sense, however, I was concerned about the lager flavor creeping in). You make the call on cell count but I would pitch a MrMalty calc new starter entirely. Won't hurt a thing. (I use only top-cropped yeast and baby it with O2 and nutrients). This type clone requires that you have a stir-plate or you'll go broke buying yeast.

2. Just at high krausen, (12-18 hrs), give the new starter a shot of O2 and for Pete's sake do it over the fermenter because it's be spewing yeast everywhere, then let the yeast absorb the O2 for 30-45 minutes.

3. Pitch the whole thing and agitate it into your fermenter, (yes, it will reduce your final ABV a little).

4. (My advice) Still keep the brew at 81-82F and agitate it to keep the yeast in suspension. In about 2 weeks you'll hit your gravity and it'll be amazing. (You'll wonder how it survived and did so well).

Westmalle is a tough yeast. It will live for some time in 14-15% ABV. Underpitching just slows things down a bit and this might be a good thing in the end.

There are probably 3 reasons the gravity is getting stuck for some of us: Not using Servomyces, under-pitching yeast, and under-oxygenation. For this gravity you need pure O2 at about 10 ppm and this means a pure 02 shot for about 80-90 seconds at least. Shaking or aquarium stones won't 'ever' get it there.

My troublesome Westy clone fermentation took just over 5 weeks to come down to 1.012 from 1.092. The flavors were worth the sleepless nights :)

P.S. In order to avoid any flavor conflicts on another pitch I always use harvested wort from a previous batch of the same recipe.
 
gio said:
Here is the modified version for 3.3 gallons of the traditional recipe that I am going to brew this weekend (I can't do AG with more than 10lbs of grain):

4.8lbs Belgian Pale Malt
4.8lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt
1.8lbs D2 Belgian Candi Syrup (5 min)
5 AAU Northern Brewer (90min)
2.5 AAU Styrian Goldings (20min)
0.75 AAU Hallertauer Hersbrucker (20min)
IBU: 36.87
SRM: 33.8
OG: 1.092
Boil Size: 4.5 gallons
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 3.3 gallons

Decoction Mash:
Add 19.6 qts water @ 141 to 9.6lbs grain for protein rest @ 132 for 10min
Decoct 5.2 qts mash and boil it for sacch rest @ 151 for 30 min
Decoct 2.85 qts mash and boil it for sacch rest @ 159 for 30 min

Chill to 65 and then pitch Wyeast 3787, ferment in 5 gallon carboy, let rise to 82, hold until SG is 1.018, chill back down to 65. Seconday for 6-8 weeks in 3 gallon carboy @50. Re-pitch yeast and bottle (carb to 3 vols??) or keg and force carb.
Click to expand...

I brewed this on Saturday. It was my first time doing a decoction mash (and I do BIAB). It went really well, but my efficiency was WAY higher than I expected. I got 82% efficiency on the mash and I didn't even add in half of the sparge water (I only added in 6 quarts instead of 12). Had I added it in my efficiency probably would have been 85% or higher. I kept the percentages the same by bumping up the D2 from 1.8 to 2.1lbs. In the end I ended up with nearly 4 gallons of wort instead of the estimated 3.3. I guess I'm not going to secondary in a 3 carboy.

Are decoction mashes usually this efficient? My normal BIAB single infusion and step mashes usually give me 70-75% efficiency.

Everything else went as planned, pitched about a 1.6 liter starter in 66 degree wort. Fermentation started within 12 hours, its now almost 24 hours from pitching and the temp has risen to 69.
 
gio said:
I brewed this on Saturday. It was my first time doing a decoction mash (and I do BIAB). It went really well, but my efficiency was WAY higher than I expected. I got 82% efficiency on the mash and I didn't even add in half of the sparge water (I only added in 6 quarts instead of 12). Had I added it in my efficiency probably would have been 85% or higher. I kept the percentages the same by bumping up the D2 from 1.8 to 2.1lbs. In the end I ended up with nearly 4 gallons of wort instead of the estimated 3.3. I guess I'm not going to secondary in a 3 carboy.

Are decoction mashes usually this efficient? My normal BIAB single infusion and step mashes usually give me 70-75% efficiency.

Everything else went as planned, pitched about a 1.6 liter starter in 66 degree wort. Fermentation started within 12 hours, its now almost 24 hours from pitching and the temp has risen to 69.
Click to expand...

Your starter sounds about right, (stirplate?). Do you use Servomyces?

For all intents stepped decoction mashing should not increase BE but it does...it does in our mashes also. Let us know how the ferm goes.
 

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