Really Really Traditional Mead

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WVMJ

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Has anyone made a really old time mead the way the ancestors did by fermenting the whole comb crushed with everything in it. As I understand it, the first mead makers scraped out whatever comb they could dig out of a hive in a tree, comb, pollen, bee bread, brood and whatever else was in there including old blackened comb used for brood rearing and then crushed it all up, added a splash of water and let it ferment from the native yeasts in the beebread (I assume that is where most of the wild yeast came from). They didnt know what yeast were then so they enjoyed the marvel of spontaneous fermentation. I wouldnt want to go quite so far, crushing up honeycomb, no brood comb, adding nutrients and a yeast starter just to be sure a good yeast go it going. Anyone in the mead group done one of these or is it a sure way to bring some strange flavor from the combs into the mead?

WVMJ
 
Beeswax serves to hold chemicals pretty readily (not sure what source I got that from), such as herbicides, pesticides, and anything a beekeeper treats his hive with... which is why its suggested to have the bees make new comb every couple years. The ability to pick up chemicals and hold them for years might be a possible contribution to off flavors. I don't know that they build up to any significant levels to actually harm us, I've had honey straight from a frame of a commercial beekeepers hives so many times.


That said, the wax itself is not going to contribute any flavor, its flavor neutral. So if you were to do this I would make sure you are only using 1st year comb. Which I assume you are probably going to be buying cut comb, so it shouldn't be a problem.

The thing you could consider adding is propolis, "bee glue". Its sap mixed with beeswax from a few studies iirc, but depending on the time of year its smell changes. I've never actually ate any but after digging through hives late spring I can't complain about the spicey smell.
 
I have some hives on our farm and am going foundationless so I thought what a good oppurtunity to go real full traditional old time. We do all soft treatments so our miteticides shouldnt get absorbed by the wax. We are in mostly pasture, woodland and some corn and soybeans so there is a potential for some in the comb but we are planning on using only white first year comb. WVMJ
 
I'm curious, do you know how they used to get the honey in the first place back then? Obviously they didn't have suits to protect themselves. The old grab and run method maybe?
 
They used to smoke the old time skeps killing the bees and then removed all the comb. Also, they were very tough back then and didnt need no suits or gloves. There are some people nowadays that say your shouldnt wear a suit, that is until they accidentally knock a hive over and ALL the bees come after them. WVMJ
 
How about going with a show mead? You know, no nutrients, starters, etc. Just honey, water, yeast and time. Mix up the must to a lower OG than you would otherwise and then add the additional honey as it slows down. Otherwise, what you described doing is a pretty standard traditional mead method. Nothing different than what many of us do. I've not needed to make a starter for any of my me ads yet, but I might at some point. :D
 
THanks GD, is KM allowed for a show mead? It sounds to me like the hardest way to make mead, I have to stick with the nutrients and acid additions even if doing a comb honey mead just to keep the yeast happy. Maybe no point in really doing a comb fermentation other than it would make cool pictures for a story for people who havent done it. WVMJ
 
Just made a mead tonight that's only ingredients are honey yeast water one pomegranate and a cup of fresh brewed green tea. The Pom and tea are for nutrients mostly. Not an hour after pitching she was bubbling away. Didn't take a gravity reading figured I was doing it old school, I'll take a final to make sure she's dry, but other than that I just wanted a traditional.
 
THanks GD, is KM allowed for a show mead? It sounds to me like the hardest way to make mead, I have to stick with the nutrients and acid additions even if doing a comb honey mead just to keep the yeast happy. Maybe no point in really doing a comb fermentation other than it would make cool pictures for a story for people who havent done it. WVMJ

A show mead is (from what I've read) with no additions beyond honey, water and yeast. I'm sure you can aerate/degas it since that's not an actual substance addition. If you don't like the idea of not adding any other source of nutrition for the yeast, then it will be a traditional mead. I'm also pretty sure you cannot chemically stabilize a show mead. It's not an easy category to make, but it can be done. You'll just need to give it even more time than you thought, so that it actually finishes. Probably need to aerate/degas it more until the 1/3 break too.

How strong were you looking to make this?
 
I've tried a couple meads recently that I called "whole hive" meads, with the idea from the book Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers, which while flawed in some ways, really opened my eyes to looking at brewing and wine making in a new light.

The author's perspective is that the ancient meads were actually made by cutting down a whole hive and boiling/crushing the hive itself. This would include many ingredients that are now sold as health supplements in the mead (royal jelly, bee pollen, propolis, bee venom, etc).

Since I'm not willing to go cut down and boil a whole hive myself, the author suggests making a mead with wildflower honey (since wild bees don't have just one flower source), and use store-bought supplements to make the rest. You can buy royal jelly, propolis, and bee pollen at any health food store. I have to say it's quite tasty in the its young state (I just started these meads in the last 2 months) despite the propolis in particular being quite odd-smelling to start out.

The author makes a compelling case for the health benefits of these ingredients, particularly after they've been fermented.

Incidentally (or perhaps not incidentally?) royal jelly contains all the b-complex vitamins which act as a yeast nutrient that honey lacks.
 
I go for raw wildflower honey. It's slightly filtered in that large hunks of bee are not present. :D Great tasting stuff in both it's original form, and when turned into the elixir of the gods called MEAD!! :rockin:
 
damdaman said:
...The author makes a compelling case for the health benefits of these ingredients, particularly after they've been fermented.

Incidentally (or perhaps not incidentally?) royal jelly contains all the b-complex vitamins which act as a yeast nutrient that honey lacks.

What a great thread to find! I'm preparing to make my first mead, and would like to go and do it as naturally and traditionally as possible. Which is great considering I found a video on YouTube last night of a man using bee pollen as a nutrient for his yeast. How much royal jelly would suffice for a 5 Gallon batch?

I'm personally thinking of do this: using an unpasteurized Summer Blossom honey(a mix of clover and summer florals), yeast(with the exception of bee pollen and royal jelly to help keep the yeast healthy), and water. No staggered nutrient addition, or outside nutrient/energizer products. I even plan on allowing it to sit properly until its clarified, as to not use any bentonite. I don't even want to use potassium sorbate before bottling.

What are your thoughts, guys?
 
I'm curious, do you know how they used to get the honey in the first place back then? Obviously they didn't have suits to protect themselves. The old grab and run method maybe?

I have read stories of tribes in Africa that commonly visited trees which had interior hives established and it would rain, filling tree with water, and add heat of Africa and you had mead. They stumbled across this during a trip to harvest honey, but it had rained recently...and there you have it. They commonly used smoke and there was almost always a honey gatherer amongst the tribe, someone who was at one with the bees, like a horse whisperer.
 
I wonder if the addition of royal jelly would take it out of the "show mead" category since its a natural byproduct of bees and honey production
 
I would suggest you make a first mead the modern way, with nutrient, acid blend, sulfites etc and then get into the minimal intervention tradtional mead making, at least you would have one batch to drink while waiting for the other one to clear and then you could compare a modern vs minimalist mead. I have not done the wild mead yet, need to have more honey and some extra combs before I commit them to destruction to make this the right way. WVMJ
 
Even early beekeepers used the whole hive ( from woven skeps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive) and sacrificed the hive each year. So in addition to all the goodies mentioned above, there were probably lots of bee parts mixed in as well. Probably lots of nutrients! They used smoke to calm the bees. The soggy mess was left to drain. Royalty was given the first clearest honey; the beekeepers were left with the sweet dregs which they mixed with water; hence the recommendation for boiling for hours (water was all really nasty in those days), and taking off the "scum" off the top.
"Natural" yeast is really hit and miss; that would likely be the most difficult part. Also no hydrometers. So probably a really mixed bag. But should also be noted our forebears had few sweeting agents, and were a whole lot tougher than we are (and died a whole lot earlier, usually from infection, if not war), so were probably pretty ecstatic to get inebriated on pretty much anything.
Let us know how this turns out; sound like fun!
Great fun reading is the closet of Sir Kelem Digby opened, which is chock full of scary and interesting Mead and other recipes from the 1500s.http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16441
Cheers!:mug:
Mad Doc
 
maltzanc said:
I'm curious, do you know how they used to get the honey in the first place back then? Obviously they didn't have suits to protect themselves. The old grab and run method maybe?

my dad used to not wear a suit when checking his hives.. but one of his hives last year got aggressive (they suspected Africanized) as in they chased him back to the house and stayed there for several hours. they eventually calmed down, but they ALWAYS wear suits now.

my point is, with the exception of Africanized bees, they are quite docile during twighlight times of the day.
 
I second the recommendation to go with a "Modern" mead before you jump head first into a traditional show mead....

1 key reason... Time...

It was nothing special for one of those ancient meads to take 10-20 years (Yes, years) to ferment out and age out to the point where it was good to drink....

Personally - I would also shy away from pouring a bunch of trash into a carbouy.... While wax doesn't dissolve much in water - some things will permeate back out of the wax in 14% alcohol.... Also - ground up hive - aka a gooey slush of Bee parts can't help the flavor much... Personally - I would be worried more about weird infections and TERRIBLE off flavors from all the protein, guts, and bee poo....

Thanks
 
Yes. And me and my girlfriend are drinking it waaaay too quickly, it's very tasty.[/QUOT


Has any of this cleared, or are you drinking it the ancient way?

Yeah it clears in the bottle, you can drink it like homebrewed beer and leave the layer in the bottom of the bottle, or mix it in as you drink it by pouring haphazardly.

Lately I've come a little more back to liking it mostly clear, so my "whole hive" meads I let clear a little more before bottling. But I don't worry if a little gets in there.
 
When I bottle beer, I leave a 1/2' in the bottom, swish and drink the yeast from the bottom. That book has given me traditions that I will never let go.(I also flick a small amount of my first runnings to the north, so that the gods give my beer good flavor and fermentation)(I'm not a hippy)for my next mead I will be using propolis, royal jelly and some pollen.
 
Has anyone made a really old time mead the way the ancestors did by fermenting the whole comb crushed with everything in it. As I understand it, the first mead makers scraped out whatever comb they could dig out of a hive in a tree, comb, pollen, bee bread, brood and whatever else was in there including old blackened comb used for brood rearing and then crushed it all up, added a splash of water and let it ferment from the native yeasts in the beebread (I assume that is where most of the wild yeast came from). They didnt know what yeast were then so they enjoyed the marvel of spontaneous fermentation. I wouldnt want to go quite so far, crushing up honeycomb, no brood comb, adding nutrients and a yeast starter just to be sure a good yeast go it going. Anyone in the mead group done one of these or is it a sure way to bring some strange flavor from the combs into the mead?

WVMJ
I have made mead for 8 or 9 years. The only kind I make is a Whole Hive Mead ( minus any dead bees of course ). I use raw unfiltered honey with some of the wax cappings added back in and then add back royal jelly, propolis, and bee pollen. I don't let it naturally ferment though, didn't want to take the chance. I may experiment with that this year. I use Lalvin K1-V1116 yeast and my mead has a beautiful color, not hazy, and has an excellent flavor. I bulk age for close to a year and then bottle and don't sample til one year old in the bottle. The longer it ages the better it is.
 
What a great thread to find! I'm preparing to make my first mead, and would like to go and do it as naturally and traditionally as possible. Which is great considering I found a video on YouTube last night of a man using bee pollen as a nutrient for his yeast. How much royal jelly would suffice for a 5 Gallon batch?

I'm personally thinking of do this: using an unpasteurized Summer Blossom honey(a mix of clover and summer florals), yeast(with the exception of bee pollen and royal jelly to help keep the yeast healthy), and water. No staggered nutrient addition, or outside nutrient/energizer products. I even plan on allowing it to sit properly until its clarified, as to not use any bentonite. I don't even want to use potassium sorbate before bottling.

What are your thoughts, guys?
I use only hive products (royal jelly, pollen, propolis ) as additives. No finings or sulphites of any kind. My mead turns out fantastic, but I am very patient, it takes a while....
 
I have made mead for 8 or 9 years. The only kind I make is a Whole Hive Mead ( minus any dead bees of course ). I use raw unfiltered honey with some of the wax cappings added back in and then add back royal jelly, propolis, and bee pollen. I don't let it naturally ferment though, didn't want to take the chance. I may experiment with that this year. I use Lalvin K1-V1116 yeast and my mead has a beautiful color, not hazy, and has an excellent flavor. I bulk age for close to a year and then bottle and don't sample til one year old in the bottle. The longer it ages the better it is.

That's really cool, I actually was just gifted some comb from my local beekeepers today, would you say it adds any additional flavors or nutirents for the yeast? Not whole hive but close enough for some uniqueness I hope.

That's quite some patience you have, I've yet to save a mead past 4 months though I haven't been doing this very long.

Edit: I'm sorry I thought this was from 2021!
 
That's really cool, I actually was just gifted some comb from my local beekeepers today, would you say it adds any additional flavors or nutirents for the yeast? Not whole hive but close enough for some uniqueness I hope.

That's quite some patience you have, I've yet to save a mead past 4 months though I haven't been doing this very long.

Edit: I'm sorry I thought this was from 2021!

Since this thread was brought back from the dead like some kind of zombie, I will add, prickly pears have a high concentration of pectin, so pectic enzyme is essential for reducing haze and probably removing the viscous mouth feel. I am giving a thought to adding some in my secondary in a batch I started today (13 pounds mesquite honey with 4 gallons spring water). If I do, I am not going to cook them. Rather I will dice and let them sit overnight in the fridge with the pectic enzyme, then toss them in the bucket. This might help retain some of their color.
 

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