Competition Questions for BJCP Judges

I want to enter a couple of my beers in an upcoming competition and I'm wondering how much attention is given to serving temperature by judges in competitions like this.

I mean, I'm sure that it is a consideration since these are BJCP judges and they realize the importance of serving temperature, but I'm wondering how closely they look at the temp when judging a beer.

I'm entering serveral stouts and a mild and these need to be served pretty "warm" in order to have the real character of the style come out. They taste like totally different beers if served even 6 or 7 degrees colder.

Anyone have insight into this? Thanks!

In competitions I have judged the beers were stored on ice until ready to serve. Good judges don't complete their notes/score until they have tried the beer cold and warm. Unfortunately you can't stipulate that it has to be judged at a certain temperature. So if your beer is a 12 at a lower temp but is a 50 at a higher temp, I would expect a score to reflect somewhere in the middle...probably high 20's to low 30's.

Most likely the beer will be stored on ice, or refrigerated before it goes to a judge. A good judge will ask for a few bottles to be brought out at once if they notice the first one is way too cold. Also, they are judging a small sample of beer. What we have learned so far in my BJPC study group is to get some initial impressions cold (taste, smell appearance), then to use your hands to warm it up some. A judge should know the beer will open up and change when warmed, especially in the stout category.

A good judge or steward will make sure those beers are served at an appropriate temperature. When I am judging, I will always come back to a cold beer after it has warmed to make sure that the profile hasn't changed. I don't think you have much to worry about.

mrtrav said:

In competitions I have judged the beers were stored on ice until ready to serve. Good judges don't complete their notes/score until they have tried the beer cold and warm. Unfortunately you can't stipulate that it has to be judged at a certain temperature. So if your beer is a 12 at a lower temp but is a 50 at a higher temp, I would expect a score to reflect somewhere in the middle...probably high 20's to low 30's.

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this doesnt sound right to me. why would they average out the score of the two tasting temps if only one of those temps is the one its INTENDED to be drunk at.

If I buy a beer from the store that says to drink it at one temp, and I drink it at a different temp, its my own fault that I probably didnt like it. Why should it be any different for this?

I am sure if you tell them to drink it at a certain temp, then thats the temp they will judge it at.

Pivot said:

this doesnt sound right to me. why would they average out the score of the two tasting temps if only one of those temps is the one its INTENDED to be drunk at.

If I buy a beer from the store that says to drink it at one temp, and I drink it at a different temp, its my own fault that I probably didnt like it. Why should it be any different for this?

I am sure if you tell them to drink it at a certain temp, then thats the temp they will judge it at.

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The judges won't have a thermometer. A judge shouldn't be doing 2 scores on a cold and warm beer and averaging them either. What they should be doing is recognizing "hey this beer is way too cold, I'll warm it a bit in my hand".

Mrtrav, are you a BJCP judge?? This averaging of warm and cold scores seems odd to me and I can't believe that they don't warm stouts before tasting them. Makes no sense to me.

The averaging of the scores just sounds ridiculous.

"I don't get it the ice cream was good cold but now that I heat it up I don't like it"

The temperature has more to do with the stewards than the judges, they are the ones who decide when to bring them out of the cooler. The only thing the judges could do is ask for a bottle to be set out early if they wanted. However the stewards, at least in my experience, tend to pay quite a bit of attention to this and it has never been an issue for me.

They do not tend to have different temperature storage units for different styles though, they are all stored and brought out at the same temp and if it's a style that should be served warm it will have to be left at room temp for a bit first.

If I am stewarding, which I have a few times int he past, I will generally bring several bottles while the judges are setting up so they can begin to warm up slightly(depending on style). They generally will wait until the beer is at a proper temperature or they will warm their sample with their hand.

Judges are generally trained to know what temps are proper for the style they are judging and they do their best to sample the beer at that temperature. All of the judges I have worked with revisit the beer before moving on to the next beer to make sure the characteristics have not changed. If they have, they adjust the scoresheets.

In other words, both judges and stewards generally know what temp the beers need to be, and they try to make it happen.

Edcculus said:

The judges won't have a thermometer. A judge shouldn't be doing 2 scores on a cold and warm beer and averaging them either. What they should be doing is recognizing "hey this beer is way too cold, I'll warm it a bit in my hand".

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haha well yeah when I say the temp I dont mean down to the degree. I figured that was implied

Any attempt to dictate temperature compromises anonymity.

david_42 said:

Any attempt to dictate temperature compromises anonymity.

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Not really. You just serve all the stouts for instance, at a warmer more appropriate temperature. No anonymity compromised.

He is saying dictating temperature in the notes about the beer, not judges or stewards controlling temperature.

I shall name my beer "Serve Warm Stout"... seriously the only way to get notes to a judge is to enter it into a specialty category. Those are the only ones that judges get any special notes from the brewer (i.e. ingredients, style, etc). Otherwise, the judges only know what base style you are in.

I really don't think you need to worry; most of these people took a test regarding beer styles and a lot of information about each beer style.

There are a number of categories in which the judges see entrants' notes (specialty, S/H/V, fruit beers, smoked & wood-aged, to name most of them). However, the organizer or Head Judge should go through and scrub out any notes that have nothing to do with identifying guidelines for the judges (i.e., the judges need to know it's a raspberry sweet stout if they are going to judge it). I would expect any note about serving temperature to be removed. Judges should never, ever see beer names until after all judging for the competition is concluded.

As for serving temperature, as it's been mentioned, good judges are aware of the issue and deal with it as they see fit. As also mentioned, you usually judge about 3 ounces of beer, so it's not like the bottles need to come out a half hour before judging. You can do it all right then and there, after pouring. You just may need to take a little extra time to get it right.

Many times, judges will not pull a bunch of bottles out at once, because they want to keep a fairly level field. Often, the next bottle will come out to warm a bit while they judge the current bottle.

Just as an aside, I have to chuckle a little when y'all assume there is a steward on the flight. I've judged many, many more flights without a steward than with. We call that "auto-stewarding" or "stewarding off."


TL

Or the stewards get dragooned into judging.

I'm sure that mrTrav did not literally mean a 2 score average.
I believe that he is talking about human nature's penchant for averaging things out in your mind.

olllllo said:

I'm sure that mrTrav did not literally mean a 2 score average.
I believe that he is talking about human nature's penchant for averaging things out in your mind.

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I wouldnt have any inclination to average these out in my mind. Any educated beer connoisseur judging this competition, like stated above, would obviously know about temprature issues. Hell, if everyone here knows it then I would hope to God the actual judges would know it.

And thats what worries me about a post like that. He said he had judged previously and this was at least somewhat his mentality when doing so. if the judge drank it warm, then warmed it and tried it again and got slapped in the face by a delicious beer, there would be no human nature leading him to think "well it is excellent warm, but the first time I tried it cold it wasnt as good so Ill go somewhere in between" I personally think thats kind of sloppy and shady judging

Pivot said:

I wouldnt have any inclination to average these out in my mind. Any educated beer connoisseur judging this competition, like stated above, would obviously know about temprature issues. Hell, if everyone here knows it then I would hope to God the actual judges would know it.

And thats what worries me about a post like that. He said he had judged previously and this was at least somewhat his mentality when doing so. if the judge drank it warm, then warmed it and tried it again and got slapped in the face by a delicious beer, there would be no human nature leading him to think "well it is excellent warm, but the first time I tried it cold it wasnt as good so Ill go somewhere in between" I personally think thats kind of sloppy and shady judging

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I think you still are missing the point. Are you familiar with the saying, "You can't step in the same river twice"? That is to say that your initial perception colors subsequent perceptions.

olllllo said:

I think you still are missing the point. Are you familiar with the saying, "You can't step in the same river twice"? That is to say that your initial perception colors subsequent perceptions.

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I understand what your saying, but then if this is the case, then something needs to change because its not really acceptable. If people are just prone to do this, then there should be preventative measures to ensure it doesn't happen, because obviously the beer is going to be better at one temprature then it is at the other correct? Im sure this is true with any beer presented to them. If every beer is judged in this fashion, the entire judging will be completely inaccurate and sloppy.

The beer should be judged only one time at the temprature that the brewer intended it to be experienced at. Otherwise, like olllllo said, their "initial perception colors subsequent perceptions." This is no way to judge a competition.

One one of my score sheets the judge noted differences as it warmed up.

There is a whole section in the study materials on the primacy and recency effect.
Also there is a range of temperatures with which beers can be enjoyed.

If you beers have any flaws, warming them up will only expose them. It's just not reasonable to expect that a brewer can dictate what the temperature for drinking should be.

You would get requests for light lagers to be served at 32 to mask any DMS and gain full aroma points (for subtle aroma).

For reference:

Instructions for stewards

Maintain proper serving temperatures during judging. 50° F is a good temperature for ales. Lagers may be served colder. Use ice as needed to maintain proper serving temperature.

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olllllo said:

There is a whole section in the study materials on the primacy and recency effect.
Also there is a range of temperatures with which beers can be enjoyed.

If you beers have any flaws, warming them up will only expose them. It's just not reasonable to expect that a brewer can dictate what the temperature for drinking should be.

You would get requests for light lagers to be served at 32 to mask any DMS and gain full aroma points (for subtle aroma).

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That does make alot of sense, and I definitely understand what you mean. My main arguement here simply is that the beer score should not be an average of cold and warm. But I understand what your saying. This entire thing is very confusing to me haha. I dont really know a reasonable way to judge beer anymore that will satisfy me haha.

olllllo said:

It's just not reasonable to expect that a brewer can dictate what the temperature for drinking should be.

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They're not asking this. They're asking that they be served ACCORDING TO STYLE.


If a beer is supposed to be served at 50 degrees, what it tastes like at 35 shouldn't be judged.

They're not asking this. They're asking that they be served ACCORDING TO STYLE.

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If you read the posts, some were suggesting just that.

olllllo said:

If you read the posts, some were suggesting just that.

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Maybe I'm misreading, but I don't see any like that.

Well I was saying that the brewer should dictate the temp yea, but its basically what i was getting at; that the beer should be judged at one temp, the temp its meant to be consumed at, and that would obviously be in relation to the style. I do understand now why the beers temp should not be picked by the brewer, but I still dont think it should be tasted twice.

Competitions are competitions just like gymnastics or football.

I believe that a good deal of the rules are objective like football, but no matter what there will always be some subjectivity. We'll always have the WTF holding penalty or the "upon further review" moments..

This is why it is always impressive when a Gordon Strong or a Jamil Zanichef strings together multiple wins in a comp.

Or take Ben Miller who won the SA Longshot and the GABF Pro-Am with 2 different beers on the same day!

There is still some great confusion about how the judging process typically works. The serving temperature isn't really important unless a beer is served too warm (generally never the case). If a beer arrives too cold, any good judge will immediately recognize this and allow the beer to warm while they judge it. You can check the colour, clarity, and the head while the beer warms. You can also start to get a good impression of the carbonation and mouthfeel. I often make some notes on initial impression of flavour and aroma, as well.

Once the beer is warmed sufficiently, I evaluate aroma and flavour again, and double-check my notes on mouthfeel. Once my notes are complete, I *THEN* assign a score. If required flavour or aroma components weren't there when the beer was cold, but they did appear as it warmed, then they do qualify as being present. There is no 'averaging' involved. It is only if something is missing across the entire temperature range, or if a flaw appears at any temperature, that you ding points. I don't think anyone would mentally average the performance of the beer at varied temperatures -- instead, you simply try to provide every opportunity for the beer to perform and for the character of the beer to emerge.

I'm not sure how many BJCP judges actually chimed in on this one. I'm an active judge and have taken the BJCP examination (rank pending). In my experience the vast majority of competitions care greatly that beers are served in appropriate temperature ranges. A BJCP judge is taught to evaluate the beer fully and to understand the best temperature for the type of beer judged.

For me, if I'm judging a beer which should be served a bit warmer, stouts, english barleywine, some belgians, the steward (or self stewarding) will present the bottle for inspection. We look at fill level, cap, etc. In that time, it's easy to assess if the bottle is ice cold, too warm, or just right An initial evaluation of aroma, taste, color, etc., will follow. If I feel the beer is too cold, I will warm it with my hands taking in any changes in the flavor/aroma which follow and looking for any offs which become apparent as the temperature changes. I try to form my "primary" opinion of the beer when I feel it is at a representative temperature for the style. Most judges spend 10-15 minutes per beer in evaluating it. With a 2-3 oz pour the average tasting size, even if the beer is served too cold, inevitably it will warm up to the correct temperature during the tasting process. Beers are "tasted" several times through the tasting process. If the beers are being served too warm, the head judge for the table should notify the competition organizer so that the beers may be chilled before proceeding with the judging. Whether the beer is "served" according to style should have little effect on the overall score of the beer as a quality judge will know what to do if a beer is served too warm or too cold. I'm a very strong believer that the vast majority of beer judges care greatly about the beer they are judging and giving back the most beneficial review possible for the particular competition.

Ok, this is off topic from the original post but I have a question for a beer judge, and rather than open a whole new thread I will submit it here.

What would you classify a breakfast stout as in a BJCP competition? I am guessing it would be an oatmeal stout, but it says nothing about coffee in the guidlines other than that it should have a coffee like flavor.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Ok, this is off topic from the original post but I have a question for a beer judge, and rather than open a whole new thread I will submit it here.

What would you classify a breakfast stout as in a BJCP competition? I am guessing it would be an oatmeal stout, but it says nothing about coffee in the guidlines other than that it should have a coffee like flavor.

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The style guidelines are qualitative, so it is impossible to say without knowing the qualities of the beer and if you know the qualities of the beer the style guidelines are fairly clear.

In general though, if coffee was clearly added 21A (several commercial breakfast stouts are listed as classic examples). Otherwise it could be anywhere between 13B and 13F depending.

Ah, I see it now under 21. Guess I didn't think that it would be under spice/herb/vegetable beer, and didn't look there. Thanks

Fly and KellyK - I'm in a study group right now for the exam, and this is consistent to what we have talked about, and how we evaluate beer in the class.

For the non judges who have expressed confusion, I suggest you go to the BJCP website and read up on the judging process. I think some of you are still confused about the process, and even how to evaluate beer properly. When it comes down to it, you are at the mercy of the judges when you send your beer in. If you have a problem with that, become a judge and stop bitching. Start a revolution.

Edcculus said:

Fly and KellyK - I'm in a study group right now for the exam, and this is consistent to what we have talked about, and how we evaluate beer in the class.

For the non judges who have expressed confusion, I suggest you go to the BJCP website and read up on the judging process. I think some of you are still confused about the process, and even how to evaluate beer properly. When it comes down to it, you are at the mercy of the judges when you send your beer in. If you have a problem with that, become a judge and stop bitching. Start a revolution.

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I wasn't aware that anyone was bitching?? Sounded like people curious about the process to me.

FlyGuy said:

You can check the colour, clarity, and the head while the beer warms. You can also start to get a good impression of the carbonation and mouthfeel. I often make some notes on initial impression of flavour and aroma, as well.

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I think the issue I have, (and I'm sure others do) is that if you taste it while its not at its correct temp, it IS going to affect your opinion of what the beer tastes like at correct temp.

There's nothing you can do to avoid this, as the human mind determines what the senses perceive as much as the senses themselves do. Essentially, by even smelling or tasting the beer off-temp, you're poisoning the well.

Synovia said:

I think the issue I have, (and I'm sure others do) is that if you taste it while its not at its correct temp, it IS going to affect your opinion of what the beer tastes like at correct temp.

There's nothing you can do to avoid this, as the human mind determines what the senses perceive as much as the senses themselves do. Essentially, by even smelling or tasting the beer off-temp, you're poisoning the well.

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I totally agree.

Synovia said:

I think the issue I have, (and I'm sure others do) is that if you taste it while its not at its correct temp, it IS going to affect your opinion of what the beer tastes like at correct temp.

There's nothing you can do to avoid this, as the human mind determines what the senses perceive as much as the senses themselves do. Essentially, by even smelling or tasting the beer off-temp, you're poisoning the well.

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Then you misunderstand the judging process and the purpose of BJCP-sanctioned beer competitions.

The BJCP judging process is meant to determine how successful a brewer has been at achieving a specific target style of beer. It is not a beer 'popularity contest'. I agree that if we were judging a beer purely on aesthetics or enjoyment, then a first impression might bias ones evaluation.

However, this is not how beer judging works. BJCP judges basically have a checklist of objective criteria that they are looking for. These include things like colour of the beer, presence of various aromatic characters (e.g., hop character), flavour constituents, senses perceived in the mouth, etc. The judge notes all of these things that they are trained to recognize, then determines whether or not they are appropriate to the target style. The BJCP style guidelines provide exceptionally detailed descriptions of these characters against which the judge can evaluate each beer they score. If certain characteristics are not to style, then the beer is scored down. If the beer characters closely align with the target style guidelines, they score high.

If you are interested to see the characters that BJCP judges evaluate when they score a beer, here is a really good 'cheat sheet' meant for rapid evaluation (not feedback). You can compare them to what is required for each style in the BJCP style guidelines here.

Now of course, not every evaluation can be entirely objective, and there is room for 'intangibles' in the scoring. But it is only a small component of the overall score. Perhaps this component might be biased by first impressions, but any experienced judge would not be easily swayed. If a beer improves as it warms, any judge will score it up. Again the concept here is not to score a beer based on enjoyment or some other subjective criteria, but rather, to make as much of the evaluation based on objective criteria and a target style. It is much harder to bias the latter.