Is there really a diff between batch sparging and Mash out?

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jacksonbrown

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I was just thinking about this. And I'm curious what people think. Is there really a difference between performing a batch sparge and a mash out? The goal in both is to raise you grain bed temp to 168. In the mash out, you add hot water, rest, drain, add water, drain. In the batch sparge you drain the first wort, and sparge twice. So, where does the difference lie? What does one method do for you that the other does not?
 
Mashout raises the mash temp to around 168F. This can be done with an infusion of hot water or by heating the mash. At that point you start the sparge either a batch sparge or a fly sparge.

With a batch sparge you drain the lauter tun 1 or more times. After each draining you add additional sparge water then drain again.

The two steps are not exclusive nor do they have to be done together. After a mashout you can either fly or batch sparge. And you do not have to mashout before starting a batch sparge. I use a 5gal cooler and my larger beers completely fill the MLT. So I have to drain the mash water before I can add any additional water. This means I cannot perform a mashout, though I do batch sparge.

Craig
 
The goal of sparging is to rinse the converted sugars from your grains. The goal of Mash Out is to stop the enzymes from converting sugars. This "freezes the clock" on your SG and prevents your wort from bumping up an extra .01 or .02 to fine tune your brews.
 
Isn't a mash out just a throw back from when fly sparging was the only accepted method? I dunno....I just have seen from contributers on this site that do batch sparge: that mash out is indeed not as noticable. I do fly sparge, so I find I get the best results doing a step mash with fly sparging (start off with a 30 min protein rest at 135, 30 min mash at 153, then 10 min mashout at 168....mashout just means to raise the temp enough to stop the "mash" process that the enzymes are doing). I would think that time is the only factor about when to get your grains up to 168 (so that you can stop those enzymes: otherwise, it might alter the characteristics of your beer). If you're not puttering around with your runnings, then maybe you can get what is effectively a mashout with your second batch sparge: and hence why the batch folks here say they see no difference with/without mashout.
 
I've been batch sparging for years, but rarely ever do a mash-out. So, for me they aren't the same thing. I control unfermentables and maltiness with the recipe and not worry about stopping the enzymes at a specific point.
 
I have been doing batch sparges since I began AG. I did a couple Mash outs the last few times though just to see if I noticed a diff. I did not.

The goal of Mash Out is to stop the enzymes from converting sugars.
When I batch, my first half of the sparge water goes in around 180-190 in order to raise my mash temp and stop converstion. So what's the difference? I let it sit for 5-10 min before drianing.
 
I have been doing batch sparges since I began AG. I did a couple Mash outs the last few times though just to see if I noticed a diff. I did not.


When I batch, my first half of the sparge water goes in around 180-190 in order to raise my mash temp and stop converstion. So what's the difference? I let it sit for 5-10 min before drianing.

You are doing a mashout, then a batch sparge. If you were like me and didn't have room to add additional water before starting the sparge then you would skip the mashout step. Since you are adding water then it makes sense to add in such a way to become a mashout.

So basically your batch sparge technique accomplishes a mashout. But that does not mean that a mashout and batch sparge are the same thing.

Craig
 
Wow, I think I've been doing it wrong all the time. I put in my strike water and hold for 60mins, drain. Then add 168º water and let sit for 10 - 15mins. Repeat as necessary. From what I'm reading my first sparge water should be higher than 168º? Same holds true for each additional sparge?
 
Wow, I think I've been doing it wrong all the time. I put in my strike water and hold for 60mins, drain. Then add 168º water and let sit for 10 - 15mins. Repeat as necessary. From what I'm reading my first sparge water should be higher than 168º? Same holds true for each additional sparge?
That's an acceptable method, but you may get some more efficiency by using sparge water hot enough to raise the mash to 168º.
 
You are doing a mashout, then a batch sparge. If you were like me and didn't have room to add additional water before starting the sparge then you would skip the mashout step. Since you are adding water then it makes sense to add in such a way to become a mashout.

So basically your batch sparge technique accomplishes a mashout. But that does not mean that a mashout and batch sparge are the same thing.

I should have been more clear. I drain my first runnings, then batch sparge. My my first half of the sparge is 180-190, sits for 5-10 min, drains, then repeat with 168 deg water. When I did mash outs I would not drain the first run, but add 180-190 deg water, sit, drain, sparge once with 168 deg water. Now I'm just getting confused. So, I think what you're telling me, is that my first half of the batch sparge does not need to be at 180-190, but can be at 168. Which would effectively make them two different things.
 
The way I see it, a mashout has two purposes: (1) Raise the grain bed to 168F or above to denature the amylase enzymes and prevent further conversion, (2) Raise the wort temperature to dissolve sugars and other desirables into the sparge water.

For batch spargers (like myself), #1 is less important than for fly spargers, because our wort goes into the boil kettle faster, so additional conversion from start of sparge to boil isn't as big of a factor. #2 is important in that the more sugars you dissolve, the better you can approach "ideal" efficiency.

I don't perform a mashout per se. I, like many others, heat my sparge water to 175F before batch sparging. My process is mash, drain, sparge twice with 175F water. With this method, I'm getting 75-78% efficiency, which is acceptable to me. Once I complete construction of my direct-fired mash tun, I'll probably experiment with adding a mashout step, just to see if I can get into the 80% range.
 
Yea, what jds said :
When I batch sparge, my first running's/collection goes right into the boil pot that I'm heating right away, (electric stove, low BTU's). It is close to boiling by the time I add the next collection. I have done FWH yet as I have been making light beers but that is also a great time if your going for a high IBU beer.
For this case, a mash out just takes away from the amount of sparge water that you need to rinse out the sugars in the mash. Of course 1gal or less of boiling water may help in de-solving and draining the sugars from the first collection. Just make sure you stir well, and give it enough time for diffusion to work and extract the right level of sugars, otherwise your hurting more than your helping.
 
I've consistently found that assuming a double sparge (two half volume infusions), I LOSE about 2-4% efficiency if I did a mash out infusion.

Just for clarification, a mashout infusion is one that occurs after the sac rest but prior to running off wort. You can use a smallish volume of boiling water to acheive the equilibrium temp of 168F.

While it does make sugars more soluable which would suggest higher efficiency, the trade off is the fact that you are leaving yourself with less sparge volume. You may think it doesn't matter when the water is infused but it matters quite a bit.

Since batch sparging works on the principal of diffusion (high sugar levels diffuse into areas of low sugar levels to equilibrium), adding a small amount of 1.000 gravity water to a high gravity mash wort does very little for you.

I'm sure there are all kinds of scientific theories that could be employed to explain it better but I can anecdotally say that skipping the mash out and sparging twice with 185F water is a little better than using a mash out infusion.

However, I now have a direct fired MLT so I can have my cake and eat it too. That is, I get the mash to 168F without wasting any sparge water.
 
Yeah, I have noticed a drop in efficiency when I did my last two batches with a mash-out. Which is part of what prompted my questioning the differences. You all rock.
 
I was just thinking about this. And I'm curious what people think. Is there really a difference between performing a batch sparge and a mash out? The goal in both is to raise you grain bed temp to 168. In the mash out, you add hot water, rest, drain, add water, drain. In the batch sparge you drain the first wort, and sparge twice. So, where does the difference lie? What does one method do for you that the other does not?

Actually, a mashout infusion without further risning is a no-sparge technique. You add your full boil volume, vorlauf and drain. Your efficiency will be south of 60% generally, which will cost you a few dollars per batch. Though some will argue against the validity of this technique, I use it regularly with excellent results. You obviously need a spacious Mash Tun.

KD
 
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