Thermowell

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skipdog

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Who out there uses a thermowell? I just purchased one and used with a ranco temp control and am not satisfied. I may be doing something wrong. Please let me know? I have a chest freezer(Temp controlled) and put the ranco thermocouple down the thermowell tube and set at 70 degrees with a 1 degree differential. The ambiant temp got so cold by the time the freezer shut off that the batch went down to 55 degrees and never warmed up since. I took it out of the thermowell and placed on the outside of the bucket for now. How are you guys using that piece of **** without getting such a drop in temps?

Please tell me.... :mug:
 
It has to do with thermal transfer and time. The larger the substance the thermowell is in, the longer it takes that substance to transfer the heat out of the substance into the refrigerated space. So I have discovered that you need to place the thermowell in a smaller volume of liquid and the transfer of heat will be faster and the cold will not dip so far below as it did before in the interior of the freezer or refrigerator. At first when the carboys are placed in the fridge the heat differential is huge and so the fridge works real hard to bring the interior down because you have the sensor in that 80 degree mass (in a thermowell) but once it gets to be equal to the set temp of the Ranco it is then off for large periods of time. I find this does not work well. I just put my Ranco sensor in the interior and let it hang in the air until the carboy is at the same temp as I set the Ranco and then place the sensor in the thermowell in a smaller container of water. This works well for me. This way you can open the door without it starting up because hot air rushes in. It takes a few minutes for the small water container to warm a bit. Some people just let the Ranco sensor hang in the air in the interior of the refrigerator or freezer and avoid the thermowell altogether and that works for them.
 
Yup, you've just seen the effect of insulating the controller probe with 5" of liquid on all sides. Ideally, the probe would sit in the beer but only say 1" from the container wall. That way it's measuring closer to the average temp of the liquid and would respond faster. The easiest method, not too far off from the best, is to securly tape the sensor to the side of the carboy and insulating it from the ambient air with some foam insulation. That way, it's measuring a bit more of the liquid temp and less of the ambient. I know that's not what you want to hear when you just dropped the dime on the well.

If you happen to use a bucket fermenter, you could very well make a new hole in the lid so that the thermowell does sit closer to the sidewall. This isn't so easy in a carboy.
 
Thanks for the advice. I used to put the probe on the outside of the bucket secured with duck tape. I bought the thermowell thinking it would be better but i will revert back to the old tape trick on the outside. I may try the method of modifying a new lid and drill closer to the wall.

Thanks again....
 
skipdog said:
Thanks for the advice. I used to put the probe on the outside of the bucket secured with duck tape. I bought the thermowell thinking it would be better but i will revert back to the old tape trick on the outside. I may try the method of modifying a new lid and drill closer to the wall.

Thanks again....

Bubble wrap seems to work well as an insulator. I tape a two or three layer square of bubble wrap to my carboy on three sides. Then I push the probe down into the pocket through the open fourth side as far as it will go.

Temp stays much more stable than when I just dangled the probe in the air.
 
Skipdog, I'm having the same problem. I'm currently fermenting in a 15 gal firestone keg using a 24 inch thermowell on a modified keg lid, with a Johnson digital controller. I set the controller to 64 degrees and the ambient temp reached 58 degrees before the refrigerator shut off. I thought this would enable me to control temps more accurately, but the exact opposite has happened.

I'm going back to the way I originally controlled temps, I wrapped an old bungy cord around my keg and placed the probe under the cord, and this worked great. I also added another keg filled with water to add thermal mass.
 
This is interesting, as I have just bought one as well. I plan on using a chest freezer and one of the space heater pads that the HBS sells. I actually work for Johnson Controls and I acquired a controller that has many inputs and outputs so I can control and program it however I want. I was hoping with the thermowell that I could control the actual temp of fermentation rather than the ambient temp. I may just have to fill a carboy with water to test it out. I can gather data samples from the sensors and plot the "ambient" temp in the freezer next to the thermowell temp. Has anyone actually used one successfully?
 
Skipdog, I'm having the same problem. I'm currently fermenting in a 15 gal firestone keg using a 24 inch thermowell on a modified keg lid, with a Johnson digital controller. I set the controller to 64 degrees and the ambient temp reached 58 degrees before the refrigerator shut off. I thought this would enable me to control temps more accurately, but the exact opposite has happened.

I'm going back to the way I originally controlled temps, I wrapped an old bungy cord around my keg and placed the probe under the cord, and this worked great. I also added another keg filled with water to add thermal mass.

Try adjusting the thermostat in the refrigerator so it shuts off earlier, closer to the temp you want the beer. Remember, you are measuring the beer temp while the refrigerator is measuring the air temp.
 
In a different thread I received a suggestion to put the sensor in the fermenter protected by a latex pencil balloon. I'm going to try that next. I will also place the sensor 1 inch or so from the edge of the bucket.
 
I have found when ambient temps in my garage are below my preferred fermentation temp.I have to use a heater to keep my temp in range.The freezer can't warm up on it's own once the cooling cycle has run and shut off.
 
I have not written about this in a while, because it usually ends in a pissing match; but why not.

As you can see, the problem the OP had 5 years ago is still persisting today. You can not control fermentation by regulating what I'll call "cold side".

I'll explain.

Let's start out with you pitching your ale yeast into wort that is exactly 67 degrees. You then put a probe into a thermowell, which is in the middle of the beer, and set the controller for 67F. The beer warms up naturally during fermentation, so the fridge/freezer turns on. The fridge/freezer gets extremely cold, and given enough time, it will bring the beer back down to 67. The fridge turns off. Now your cold side problem begins, because you have an insulated fridge/freezer filled with ice cold air. Even though the fridge is not running, the wort temp will continue to drop due to the freezing cold ambient air. The energy from fermentation alone is not enough to offset this drop.

The answer is to control "hot side". If you have a controller on the fridge, you can make this process even more efficient (by keeping the fridge around 55F for example), but I have been successful for a couple years now just using a single stage Johnson controller (set to heat). I use a small dorm fridge that just fits a 6 gallon better bottle. I plug in the fridge to function as normal, and keep it on a low setting. Lets call the setting a 2 on the 1-8 scale. I then run a probe from the temperature controller into a thermowell that extends down into the beer. The controller plugs into a Fermwrap, which is held around the carboy with a bungee chord.

I set the temp controller 1 degree above what I want the beer temp to be, and also set it for a 1 degree differential. So if I am fermenting at 68F, I set it for 69F.

The perpetually cold fridge keeps the beer temperature from getting above fermentation temp, while the Fermwrap keeps the beer from falling below fermentation temp. It sounds odd because of the push/pull nature of the operation, but the result is a dead on beer temperature regardless of how active the fermentation may be.

The other nice thing about this set up is how easy it is to ramp temperatures up as fermentation slows. As you see the activity in the carboy slowing, you can just "up" the temp a couple degrees on the temperature control, and the Fermwrap does the rest. I have found that increasing temperatures during the last 10-15% of fermentation makes a huge difference in hitting those last couple points of attenuation.
 
Jfowler1 this is an interesting approach. I've been struggling with this issue and you may have provided a very practical if not exactly elegant solution. I was looking at it purely from the cold side.

I may try this out if my current experiments don't work. Cheers!
--pirat
 
The other upside I see is that if your chamber is a fridge with a freezer, letting it always run means the freezer stays frozen. Part of me just doesn't like the idea of running a heater inside the fridge, but probably a small price for consistent ferm temps.
 
I have not written about this in a while, because it usually ends in a pissing match; but why not.

As you can see, the problem the OP had 5 years ago is still persisting today. You can not control fermentation by regulating what I'll call "cold side".

I'll explain.

Let's start out with you pitching your ale yeast into wort that is exactly 67 degrees. You then put a probe into a thermowell, which is in the middle of the beer, and set the controller for 67F. The beer warms up naturally during fermentation, so the fridge/freezer turns on. The fridge/freezer gets extremely cold, and given enough time, it will bring the beer back down to 67. The fridge turns off. Now your cold side problem begins, because you have an insulated fridge/freezer filled with ice cold air. Even though the fridge is not running, the wort temp will continue to drop due to the freezing cold ambient air. The energy from fermentation alone is not enough to offset this drop.

The answer is to control "hot side". If you have a controller on the fridge, you can make this process even more efficient (by keeping the fridge around 55F for example), but I have been successful for a couple years now just using a single stage Johnson controller (set to heat). I use a small dorm fridge that just fits a 6 gallon better bottle. I plug in the fridge to function as normal, and keep it on a low setting. Lets call the setting a 2 on the 1-8 scale. I then run a probe from the temperature controller into a thermowell that extends down into the beer. The controller plugs into a Fermwrap, which is held around the carboy with a bungee chord.

I set the temp controller 1 degree above what I want the beer temp to be, and also set it for a 1 degree differential. So if I am fermenting at 68F, I set it for 69F.

The perpetually cold fridge keeps the beer temperature from getting above fermentation temp, while the Fermwrap keeps the beer from falling below fermentation temp. It sounds odd because of the push/pull nature of the operation, but the result is a dead on beer temperature regardless of how active the fermentation may be.

The other nice thing about this set up is how easy it is to ramp temperatures up as fermentation slows. As you see the activity in the carboy slowing, you can just "up" the temp a couple degrees on the temperature control, and the Fermwrap does the rest. I have found that increasing temperatures during the last 10-15% of fermentation makes a huge difference in hitting those last couple points of attenuation.

Whie this may work, I dont believe its the best solution, unless of course you could care less about energy bills. Unless im understanding this wrong, what you are doing is working both the heater and refridgerator at the same time, so making both work harder for longer periods of time. The best solution and a cheap one is to get a 2 stage controller (search ebay temp controller on here to find a great thread). Currently I have one of these hooked up to a reptile heat cable and the freezer and it maintains my temp to within 0.5C I tape the probe to the side of the carboy also and dont see massive swings in temp when i open it up. Kinda off topic from the OP but important nonetheless.

Also im gonna switch to having my probe in a small glass (use an old beer bottle) of sand, it is dense and prevents rapid change, but allows conduction still (think hot sand on the beach, under neath is always cool) and this way dont have to worry about a thermowell/waterproof temp probe or taping and untaping everytime i move the carboys
 
This doesn't make sense. How could a thermowell not function as intended? How do the commercial breweries running 20F glycol solution through cold jackets deal with this issue? Where are their temp readings coming from?
 
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