Thinkin' 'bout stout...

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dorklord

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So, one of my friends is trying to convince me to make an oatmeal stout. It isn't something I've had...

But I've got some GF rolled oats, and I've got the 'base' ingredients that I need.

So, what I'm wondering is, can I roast some/all of the oats to give it both "oat-ness" and some color/flavor? I'm thinking I can use some dark candi sugar, and perhaps molasses, or even sorghum molasses, to give it some color as well, but I just don't know if I could claim that 3 lbs of Sorghum extract, 3 lbs of dark candi sugar, and a couple spoonfuls of molasses is 'stout'.

So, I'm entertaining something like:
3-4 lbs sorghum extract
1-2? lbs dark candi syrup (home made)
and then with the oats, 1 lb total, with anywhere from 0 to 1 lbs roasted to ?? darkness.

Should I roast half the oats, all the oats? How dark should I try to go?
 
Thinkin' about doin a "stout" as well.

My thoughts were along the same lines. Roasting some oats, although I don't think much color will be gained from this. More for the taste. I am thinking the dark color is going to have to come from some coffee and/or blackstrap.

I used the D2 candi sugar in a holiday ale this past winter and it produced a more reddish color. Nothing wrong with that but just a note.

Maltodextrin will be necessary, perhaps in quantities of 10-12 oz.

Not sure what else would help, just some random thoughts.
 
Thinkin' about doin a "stout" as well.

My thoughts were along the same lines. Roasting some oats, although I don't think much color will be gained from this. More for the taste. I am thinking the dark color is going to have to come from some coffee and/or blackstrap.

I used the D2 candi sugar in a holiday ale this past winter and it produced a more reddish color. Nothing wrong with that but just a note.

Maltodextrin will be necessary, perhaps in quantities of 10-12 oz.

Not sure what else would help, just some random thoughts.

You think that much maltodextrin? I was figuring that the oats were supposed to provide a lot of body/mouthfeel...
 
I doubt you will get what you are looking for when you mention stout.

WIth all my attempts, I can only get dark brown at best. That's using grains that appear burnt, D2 and a bunch of blackstrap molasses.

Even using BRS over Sorghum wouldn't help. I'm wondering if an all grain recipe with a heavy dose of dark roasted grains is the answer...but how dark, how long to roast those grains...what grain to use, is the real question.

When tax season is over I plan to experiment with quinoa and buckwheat.

Just my 2 cents fellas
 
You'll need a source of enzymes to convert the oats, otherwise you won't really get much from them besides an almost chalky mouthfeel from the unconverted starch.
For nice color and complexity you can get 2 lbs of honey and carmelize it until it is almost black (I do this for most of my stouts anymore), it gives nice toffee flavors and when it is slightly burnt it gives a bitterness that is somehwat similar to that of heavily roasted grains and malts. Some carmelized honey and molasses will really add a lot to your recipe.
 
You'll need a source of enzymes to convert the oats, otherwise you won't really get much from them besides an almost chalky mouthfeel from the unconverted starch.
For nice color and complexity you can get 2 lbs of honey and carmelize it until it is almost black (I do this for most of my stouts anymore), it gives nice toffee flavors and when it is slightly burnt it gives a bitterness that is somehwat similar to that of heavily roasted grains and malts. Some carmelized honey and molasses will really add a lot to your recipe.

Do you think there is a big difference in flavor between caramelized honey and caramelized cane sugar? I was planning on making the cane sugar syrup and caramelizing it myself, but I could use honey (I just don't want to 'waste' honey by burning it if regular sugar will do basically the same thing).

So you think I just forget the oatmeal and go for a regular stout?

I thought I'd seen extract-only oatmeal stout recipes/kits, but maybe they were all doing a mini-mash?
 
Many mead makers will carmelize honey to varying degrees for different styles and recipes, it certainly has a different character than plain sugar, but it is difficult to describe, I suppose it could be called a little more tangy.

If you can get ahold of a gluten free source of enzymes then you could still use the oats, but if you can't then I wouldn't include them. You might be able to use a small amount of the oats (I would say about 6 or 8 oz) to get a little bit of the mouthfeel from the starches, but too much and you'll be drinking black chalkwater.
 
Many mead makers will carmelize honey to varying degrees for different styles and recipes, it certainly has a different character than plain sugar, but it is difficult to describe, I suppose it could be called a little more tangy.

If you can get ahold of a gluten free source of enzymes then you could still use the oats, but if you can't then I wouldn't include them. You might be able to use a small amount of the oats (I would say about 6 or 8 oz) to get a little bit of the mouthfeel from the starches, but too much and you'll be drinking black chalkwater.

Lets say I want to use 6 oz of the oats, should I do anything (cook them, roast them, anything) or just steep them?
 
You might get better flavor if you roast them.
Whenever I roast oats for my stout I do about 1 lb at a time spread over a cookie sheet, roast around 275 or 300 farenheit, and stir them around every 15 or 20 minutes until they darken and begin to smell more burnt than they smell like cookies (they'll start smelling like cookies after only 10 minutes), then I let them sit in a paper bag for at least a week to let some of the acrid aromas volatilize out and then toss them in my mash. For you I would recommend toasting like this and steeping them for an hour or so in about a gallon of water at 180 degrees (much warmer than most steeping grains, but with oats you don't need to worry about tannins, and for this amount it should draw out more of what you want).
 
You might get better flavor if you roast them.
Whenever I roast oats for my stout I do about 1 lb at a time spread over a cookie sheet, roast around 275 or 300 farenheit, and stir them around every 15 or 20 minutes until they darken and begin to smell more burnt than they smell like cookies (they'll start smelling like cookies after only 10 minutes), then I let them sit in a paper bag for at least a week to let some of the acrid aromas volatilize out and then toss them in my mash. For you I would recommend toasting like this and steeping them for an hour or so in about a gallon of water at 180 degrees (much warmer than most steeping grains, but with oats you don't need to worry about tannins, and for this amount it should draw out more of what you want).

Cool. I've also got some fairly dark roast buckwheat to use for this, so hopefully between that, some molasses, and darkening some candi sugar or honey I'll be able to get the color I desire.
 
You'll need a source of enzymes to convert the oats, otherwise you won't really get much from them besides an almost chalky mouthfeel from the unconverted starch.
For nice color and complexity you can get 2 lbs of honey and carmelize it until it is almost black (I do this for most of my stouts anymore), it gives nice toffee flavors and when it is slightly burnt it gives a bitterness that is somehwat similar to that of heavily roasted grains and malts. Some carmelized honey and molasses will really add a lot to your recipe.


Hey, could you elaborate on the process of caramelizing the honey.
 
I use my brewkettle for this. You need to put the honey in a kettle and heat it until it reaches your desired color, throughout this you need to keep a very close eye on it and stir it often with a long metal spoon. The honey will boil and start to rise, stirring will help keep it down, but sometimes you'll need to reduce the heat until the honey falls.
Once you hit your desired color you'll want to reduce the heat and slowly and carefully add water and let the honey dissolve and simmer *covered* until it is no longer sticking to everything (it will harden when the water is added), simmering it covered will allow the steam to soften the honey sticking to the walls of the kettle.
 
I use my brewkettle for this. You need to put the honey in a kettle and heat it until it reaches your desired color, throughout this you need to keep a very close eye on it and stir it often with a long metal spoon. The honey will boil and start to rise, stirring will help keep it down, but sometimes you'll need to reduce the heat until the honey falls.
Once you hit your desired color you'll want to reduce the heat and slowly and carefully add water and let the honey dissolve and simmer *covered* until it is no longer sticking to everything (it will harden when the water is added), simmering it covered will allow the steam to soften the honey sticking to the walls of the kettle.


Thanks, Stout-n-Braggot, I think I will try this in the future. About how much water is necessary?
 
Quick question, should I use S-04 or Windsor yeast for this?

I'm looking for something that won't make this too dry...
 
You might get better flavor if you roast them.
Whenever I roast oats for my stout I do about 1 lb at a time spread over a cookie sheet, roast around 275 or 300 farenheit, and stir them around every 15 or 20 minutes until they darken and begin to smell more burnt than they smell like cookies (they'll start smelling like cookies after only 10 minutes), then I let them sit in a paper bag for at least a week to let some of the acrid aromas volatilize out and then toss them in my mash. For you I would recommend toasting like this and steeping them for an hour or so in about a gallon of water at 180 degrees (much warmer than most steeping grains, but with oats you don't need to worry about tannins, and for this amount it should draw out more of what you want).

Question about tannins: If you steep your grains at a higher temp you would get more tannins in the brew? I usually steep my grains (buckwheat, quinoa, millet etc) around 120-130 F so I would be avoiding extracting the tannins from these grains by steeping at a lower temp?
 
For re-liquifying the carmelized honey you just need to get it to where it can be easily poured, you could even just put in all of the water for the brew once the grains are steeped and add the remaining fermentables if you wanted to (if you carmelize in your brewkettle).

I use whitelabs English Ale yeast for most of my lower gravity stouts, it doesn't attenuate too agressively and the esters it sometimes throws go well with the carmelized honey that I usually add.

As for tannins, they usually come out when grains have spent too much time in water above 180 or so, I rarely worry about them. I wouldn't steep any barley in water that hot due to tannins, but I wouldn't know how it would affect your grains (I haven't ventured much into gluten free brewing yet). My gut tells me that you could steep a fair bit higher than you do, though.
Rolled oats won't contribute tannins because their husks have been removed, and the husk is the usual source of tannins in standard brewing.

Good luck!
 
Those two are nearly the same. Both are also similar to his named WLP002.

I've got a packet of each, I'm just wondering if there is a reason to use one over the other for this particular style. I've decided not to use Notty because it has such high attenuation.

If, for example, someone says in their experience windsor tends to leave a slightly higher FG than S-04, I'd use it.

Otherwise, I'll probably use the S-04 just because I know it drops out of suspension well.
 
I've got a packet of each, I'm just wondering if there is a reason to use one over the other for this particular style. I've decided not to use Notty because it has such high attenuation.

If, for example, someone says in their experience windsor tends to leave a slightly higher FG than S-04, I'd use it.

Otherwise, I'll probably use the S-04 just because I know it drops out of suspension well.

I have not noticed any discernable difference when using these yeasts. Notty is a very different yeast that relates more closely with S05.
 
Dorklord, did this stout ever get off the ground?
If so how did it turn out? Any recipe notes?


Well, this stout came out a great deal lighter in color than planned. Actually, it was extremely dark when I transferred to primary, but a lot of that must have been particles of the roasted grain, as a lot of darkness settled out (and the yeast cake/trub left after I transferred to my bottling bucket was almost black).

Right now, the beer tastes a little green, though my friend (who requested it) has drank a couple bottles, and said it tastes kind of like newcastle (only green).

I'll try to remember to take a picture next time I open one. All in all, I'd say that simply increasing the ingredients would be a good place to start (finished product is a little light in body), but I'm not 100% sure what would give it the right color without giving it a 'burnt' taste. Of course, I'm probably a bad one for this because I didn't like stout when I tried it pre-celiac. Maybe more 'burnt' that what I made would be desirable.
 
I doubt you will get what you are looking for when you mention stout.

WIth all my attempts, I can only get dark brown at best. That's using grains that appear burnt, D2 and a bunch of blackstrap molasses.

Even using BRS over Sorghum wouldn't help. I'm wondering if an all grain recipe with a heavy dose of dark roasted grains is the answer...but how dark, how long to roast those grains...what grain to use, is the real question.

When tax season is over I plan to experiment with quinoa and buckwheat.

Just my 2 cents fellas

I don't want to minimize the splendid efforts of Lcasanova (he's one of my inspirations!), but I've recently malted some oats (sprouting ratio of about 60%--- seeds were perhaps not that fresh) and also malted some quinoa to use it as base malt with some molasses and dark sugar as fermenting adjuncts. I've added roasted white quinoa and roasted oats for color and aromas. My beer is still aging, and I have yet to try it, but in terms of color, it was pretty dark before bottling (I'd say around 55-60 SRM).
Granted, SRM 60 is not that high for a stout, but it's a good start IMHO. I don't use Sorghum at all, maybe that's why I don't get a 'brown' stout. Also, my wort from the roasted oats and quinoa was very dark, and that surely helps.

The gluten-free oat seeds were obtained from Cream Hill Estates. I will try to malt some more right at the end of this year's growing season.

Cheers
 
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