Batch sparging: mash out or remash

Ok so there are so many ways that people discuss batch sparging online that I'm now thoroughly confused. I see two major options:

1. Mash out (170F) at the end and use the sparge to just rinse the grain. Add batch sparge(s), stir, give a few minutes for grain to settle, then draine.

2. Don't mash out. Drain the wort, add sparge water to keep grains around 155-160, let this sit in the grain for 15-20 min or more to continue mashing the grain, then drain.

Has anyone tried both? Are there strong preferences one way or the other?

-ben

I don't think you've listed ALL of the various techniques but in any case, the efficiency difference are minor between them.

You can't just say "mash out" without mentioning how you will achieve it. Are you talking about applying direct heat or adding boiling water to get the temp up? There's no real advantage to infusing to a mash out temp with batch sparging unless you were mashing really thick and wanted to get more runoff volume for your first run.

Try this:

Mash for 60 minutes (or 90 minutes if your mash temp is under 150F), recirculate a gallon, run it off fully.
Sparge with 185F water, stir well for 3 minutes, recirculate a gallon, run it off fully.

Done.

#2 doesn't work. When you drain the mash water, you remove the enzymes. Stirring for a few minutes will do a better job of dissolving the sugars than letting it sit for 20.

I'm sure he's seen people talk about adding sparge water and letting it sit and just assumed this was to continue the mash. Some folks think it raises efficiency by letting more sugar diffuse out of the grain but stirring takes care of that. There will be some enzymes in the trapped liquid and the raised temp will encourage some addition conversion but only if conversion was not already complete (it probably is after a 60 minute mash).

Bobby_M said:

. . . . Mash for 60 minutes (or 90 minutes if your mash temp is under 150F), recirculate a gallon, run it off fully.
Sparge with 185F water, stir well for 3 minutes, recirculate a gallon, run it off fully.

Done.

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This is how it's done, we have gotten 80%+ eff. with this method, My personal (D)efficiency is usually what screws it up

Keep on brewing my friends

I just did my first all grain this weekend, and had a question on the batch sparging as well. After the mash I collected first runnings, then added 180° water and let it sit for probably another 25 minutes before collecting wort again, and repeated for 2 batches. My question is how quickly people draw the wort from the MLT.

In the last edition of BYO Magazine they mention extracting wort at a rate so that it takes 60-90 minutes to drain the MLT. Does anyone spend that much time on it? Do you get lower sugar concentration if you go too fast (and what is "too fast"?).

Of course, this is a classic case of confusion between fly sparge and batch sparge methods. You're describing a batch sparge and in that case there is no benefit to letting the sparge water sit on the grain. Stir the heck out of it for a couple minutes and drain it fast. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes per running. It is fly sparging that generally benefits from a long slow runoff.

+ a billion to Bobby M!

Quick clarifying question:
On my only AG attempt (achieved 80%) I mashed for 60min at 152 degrees. I added 6 quarts of 180 degree water to raise the bed temp, stirred, vorlaufed nearly a gallon then emptied. Then I split my sparges to two, 170 degree water, stirred, vorlaufed 2 quarts and emptied both times.

Are you saying it wasn't neccessary to add the 6 quarts of water at the end of mash to raise the grain bed temp? And should I have used hotter sparge water? I think I'd feel better splitting up my sparge additions, so I'd stick to that.

I must've did something right, but I'm always looking to have a more refined process. If what I did wasn't neccessary, please let me know.

johndeere said:

Quick clarifying question:
On my only AG attempt (achieved 80%) I mashed for 60min at 152 degrees. I added 6 quarts of 180 degree water to raise the bed temp, stirred, vorlaufed nearly a gallon then emptied. Then I split my sparges to two, 170 degree water, stirred, vorlaufed 2 quarts and emptied both times.

Are you saying it wasn't neccessary to add the 6 quarts of water at the end of mash to raise the grain bed temp? And should I have used hotter sparge water? I think I'd feel better splitting up my sparge additions, so I'd stick to that.

I must've did something right, but I'm always looking to have a more refined process. If what I did wasn't neccessary, please let me know.

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Raising the temp of your mash will thin it out and also stop the conversion. I will usually apply direct heat and mash out @ 168+/-, vorlauf,drain,and then depending on how big my beer is, single or double batch sparge.

This will help if you are having trouble with over attenuating.

The process Bobby M described works great, but I start heating my runnings right away. This just stops the conversion.

Splitting your sparge is really up to you. Some people are more concerned with getting the highest efficiency and some worry that to much sparging will lead to tannin extraction. Do what works for you.

Bull

I don't think 6 quarts @ 180F would raise the mash temp anywhere near 170F anyway. Also, I agree with bull in that splitting the sparge is only worth a few extra % efficiency and I'd caution against it for beers under 1.040 OG because you can get close to oversparging.

No mashout here. First runnings, then I sparge at least once (more for bigger beers, especially if I'm using my smaller mashtun). That sparge water is 175.

I vorlauf with a pump for about 2 or three minutes before draining.

After adding sparge water, I stir a bit then immediatly start the vorlauf. 2 or 3 minutes later I'm pumping to the boil kettle. I can drain the mashtun in about 2 minutes.

I am doing my first all grain on Friday and have a couple questions. First, are you all basically saying don't worry about a mash out? Second, I am using brewpal app on my iphone and it is telling me to sparge with 170 degree water. Shouldn't it be higher? I am doing a 10 gallon dogfish 60 min clone so should I split the sparge into two? I have a 75 quart mash cooler so I have plenty of room for a mash out but I am not sure if it is necessary because I don't really understand what it is for. Any other suggestions appreciated.

RDWHAHB, mashing out is not necessary (but I do it). Sparge temp is not critical either.

The mashout is there to hydrolize any remaining starches in the mash, put the alpha amylase on overdrive, denature the beta amylase, and reduce viscosity for easier lautering. None is a big deal.

i have been double batch sparging. i will vorlauf, drain. see how much run off i got and subtract that from what i want my total boil to be. I then take the difference divide by 2, and thats how much each sparge is. My first one is around 198 degrees, or whatever beersmith tells me it should be to mash out. Then the second sparge is at mashout temperature.

I have been getting around 82% efficiency this way. But if i can keep 80% efficiency and just do one sparge, i will! How big of a difference is there?

my question is by adding sparge water at 180F do you not extract any noticable tannins for that first 15 sec while there is 180F water hitting the grain before it mixes?

ekjohns said:

my question is by adding sparge water at 180F do you not extract any noticable tannins for that first 15 sec while there is 180F water hitting the grain before it mixes?

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I think the idea is that you stir it up while adding that 180 water. The temp difference between the mash and the water brings the mash to 170ish without anything really sitting at 180.

I just bought beersmith and am trying to get everything ready for my first AG batch on Friday. A couple things are giving me problems though so please give me some feedback so I can figure out the best thing to do. I am doing a 10 gallon all grain IPA and my confusion is on the mashout and sparge volumes that beersmith is giving me. In one case when I select a medium bodied single infusion it is telling me to mash with 37.5 qts at 165.2 F (cooler pre-heated) and then mash out with 21 qts at around 195. Then it says to drain all of that and then sparge with around 3 gallons. I feel like this isn't right because sparging with only 3 gallons doesn't seem like it is going to do much. The least amount of mashout volume it will allow me is 14.1 qts at boiling in order to get me to 168 F. This is still only leaving me 4.3 gallons of sparge. Should I just skip the mashout? I mean I have a 75 qt mashtun so I have the room to do the large mashout to bring it up to temp but is my efficiency going to suffer from such a small sparge? I feel like adding 5 gallons or less of sparge to 30 lbs of grain isn't going to do much but I have never done all grain so that is why I am asking. Any input or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

It's really recommended not to copy/paste post the same thing to multiple threads. You'll get the best responses when it's one place.