Was gonna go propane, but...

the more I read, the more I think electric might be a better set up. $h!t....

My plan was to build a single tier, two pump, propane set-up with keggles. I was going to go pretty low tech with very little, if any type of automation. However, the more I read and think about what I want, electric brewing keeps coming to the forefront.

At this point, I have my stand welded together and it's sitting on casters. I have the burners, but I haven't built a rack for them, so they are just sitting on the floor. I have 3 kegs (obtained legally) with the tops cut off, but I haven't modified them in any other way. I also have most of the hardware that I was planning on using: thermometers, sight glasses, valves, false bottom, pump, etc.

I guess what I'm looking for is some help to decide what route to go. I know that this decision is mostly personal, but maybe some of you guys hit this same road block and would be willing to walk me through it.

Here is what I'm thinking:

Propane is easy to set up, portable, and the build is cheaper, but is loud, dangerous to do in the garage(debatable for some, but I'm not comfortable with it), and more expensive to operate. It also seems that it would be more difficult to maintain proper temps in MLT and HLT - I could be wrong here, correct me if so.

Electric is quiet, just as fast as propane (possibly faster), can be done safely inside when it's cold, cheap to operate, and seems to be better for maintaining temps. The downsides for me seem to be cost to build and level of expertise to build. I can deal with the cost, but it might take a little longer to complete as I piece the system together.

I have a new house that I just built a year ago, and a nice spot in my garage next to my breaker panel where this rig would fit nicely. I would still use my steel frame because it's already built, even though I know it's overkill for an electric set up. I guess my main worry here is that I won't be able to build (wire) the d@mn thing. I would like something that is as simple as possible, but still able to hold temps well as I'm brewing.

I'm relatively handy, I can weld and wire very basic household electrical, but I'm not sure about the electrical for this project.... Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions would be much appreciated. I'm not looking for someone to make this decision for me, just some ideas about things I might be missing.....

It sounds to me like you've already convinced yourself to go electric.

I did a propane to electric conversion and I have to say that I was glad to start out with propane. The cost to enter the hobby is less by starting out with propane and no control panel. I learned a lot during those years. It was a slow build up to electric, and like you I was convinced electric was the way to go. Electric pretty much requires a control panel. That is a pricey step into the hobby, but if you can afford it go for it.

Another thing to look out for is I would occasionally take my propane set up somewhere to brew with others. I can't do that with my eRig.

Good luck with your decision. Either way you'll end up with home brew!

If you are fairly hany the electrics are pretty straight forward. You can do it without automation by paying close attention to the temps, but that will become tiring soon and you will want some automation to relieve you of the constant monitoring of your temps. Once you decide what you wish to automate and what devices you would like to use to accomplish that you will find them available pretty cheap and readilly in most hardware stors. The PID's are pretty cheap on Ebay and the other misc parts can be had from radio shack, and Walmart for the most part. I am usig LPG because we are jind of off the grid and E-brewing would mean I have to depend on our unreliable country electricity. Not willing to waste that much grain if I get messed up with the power co. Just some thoughts, hope this helps you decide one way or the other, just remember to have fun while you are doing it...
Wheelchair Bob

Well one option if you can handle the cost but not the build is to buy Kal's pre-made control box. I think he charges $2100 for it? The website doesn't seem to be working right now. I spent $700 on mine, but a lot of man-hours.

Rbeckett said:

You can do it without automation by paying close attention to the temps, but that will become tiring soon and you will want some automation to relieve you of the constant monitoring of your temps.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input.

I have to say that this is a fear of mine. After putting the time and effort into building a rig, whether it be propane or electric, I am pretty sure I don't want to sit by the thermometer all day.

I'm thinking the automation is more precise with electric, but possibly a little harder to build. Can someone confirm or deny that?

kerklein2 said:

Well one option if you can handle the cost but not the build is to buy Kal's pre-made control box. I think he charges $2100 for it? The website doesn't seem to be working right now. I spent $700 on mine, but a lot of man-hours.

Click to expand...

I hadn't spent enough time on Kai's site, so I didn't realize he pre-made them. I'll check it, but $2100 is not within my budget at this point. Not that what he is offering isn't worth it. $700 and lots of man hours sounds a little more doable. I am just afraid I'm going to get started and then get stuck and not know what the he!! to do.

I guess I'm trying to think into the future and build a rig I can grow into.....

g-love said:

I hadn't spent enough time on Kai's site, so I didn't realize he pre-made them. I'll check it, but $2100 is not within my budget at this point. Not that what he is offering isn't worth it. $700 and lots of man hours sounds a little more doable. I am just afraid I'm going to get started and then get stuck and not know what the he!! to do.

I guess I'm trying to think into the future and build a rig I can grow into.....

Click to expand...

Kal's website is detailed enough for pretty much anyone to be able to put together a control panel. I wouldn't worry about getting stuck. Plus, there's plenty of knowledge available on this board.

g-love said:

...
After putting the time and effort into building a rig, whether it be propane or electric, I am pretty sure I don't want to sit by the thermometer all day.

I'm thinking the automation is more precise with electric, but possibly a little harder to build. Can someone confirm or deny that?

Click to expand...

Electric is very precise and not hard to build at all. You just need the right plan.

g-love said:

...
$700 and lots of man hours sounds a little more doable. I am just afraid I'm going to get started and then get stuck and not know what the he!! to do.

I guess I'm trying to think into the future and build a rig I can grow into.....

Click to expand...

Depending on the system you are shooting for (single batches or back to back batches) it does not have to be all that complex or expensive. I believe you can build a nice electric system for about $400 complete. And that is with excellent components from Auber Instruments and the brewery protected with a GFCI Spa Panel.

For single batches you only need a 240V-30A feed to power your system. Building the system and wiring it should be a piece of cake for you to accomplish.

Please think about what it is that you want to do and I'd be happy to make a wiring plan for you to accomplish your build. I'll also setup an Excel sheet for the parts involved (most of 'em anyway).

Think about it and let me know.

Wishing you the best.

P-J

I just completed a electric setup, PJ is spot on with his comments, the controller was not prohibitively expensive, and pretty simple to wire up it you have basic skills so don't be afraid.

I have to agree with everyone in regards to wiring the control panel.
There is plenty of info buried here in the forums as well as Kal's site.
I just completed mine and spent around $500 to build.
I still have the LT and kettle from my propane setup so I can travel.

As for which is better, I cannot give you an answer for that as it is personal preference.
I went electric due to the weather, did not care for brewing in the snow and did not like the idea of brewing in the garage.

If the kegs are configured correctly from the start you can migrate from propane to electric by adding the thermocouple and heating element.

Either way you go, at least you will be doing all grain batches which is your primary goal.

Just enjoy the endeavor of the experiences you will learn.

Andrew

I think stlbeer is right, I had already convinced myself..... If not, you guys are making that decision easier!

P-J that is an amazing offer! WOW! I think I'll take you up on it! I'm going to spend some time thinking about what I am looking for as far as controls go. I might have some questions about my options and what is available. I see your name pop up all over the forums here. Thanks so much for your help!

g-love,

You are more than welcome.

You already have your 3 kegs and the stand ready to go so here are some thoughts for you. The first thing is you will need a pump or 2 (a second pump will make your life a lot easier). With that you can set up your system as a HLT (with a heat exchanger for it) a MASH tun (where you circulate your MASH through the HLT heat exchanger to maintain MASH temps) and a BOIL kettle. All of these system components can easily be controlled with a single Auber Instruments PID SYL-2352 and a 40A SSR. You only need 2 heating elements (HLT and BOIL). Oh, and you only need a single temperature probe placed in the HLT.

The set up can be an easy build for you that can and will work very well. There are a lot of things that you can do to make your build a fairly easy adventure. Like using weldless fittings or low temp Silver solder to place components in your kegs.

Please let me know what you decide and we are on the road.

If you want to talk it out a little bit, PM me your tel#.

P-J

Hi Guys,

Not to disrespect those super awesome, double chromed, computer controlled, wonder systems, but ask your self a question:

Are you brewing to play with fancy electronics?
Nothing wrong with this, hey, I'm a propeller head too!

Are you brewing to make the best beer on earth.
Maybe off earth too, who knows?

If, like me, you use a simple infusion mash, you can skip most of the electronics by mashing in a cooler.

I have a simple electric controller that acts just like the "throttle" on a gas set up.

I heat up the strike water in my electric BK. When my kitchen thermometer beeps, I transfer my strike water to my cooler to mash.

I then use my BK to start heating my sparge water.
I drain my cooler into 5 gal buckets, then add my sparge water.
When my BK is empty, I poor my wort into the BK and start my boil.

I use my simple controller to manage the ferocity of my boil.
That and some fermcap!

I love electric! I can brew indoors, safely, even in a Minnesota winter!

I just don't have a HAL9000 running the show for me

jma99 said:

Hi Guys,

Not to disrespect those super awesome, double chromed, computer controlled, wonder systems, but ask your self a question:

Are you brewing to play with fancy electronics?
Nothing wrong with this, hey, I'm a propeller head too!

Are you brewing to make the best beer on earth.
Maybe off earth too, who knows?

If, like me, you use a simple infusion mash, you can skip most of the electronics by mashing in a cooler.

I have a simple electric controller that acts just like the "throttle" on a gas set up.

I heat up the strike water in my electric BK. When my kitchen thermometer beeps, I transfer my strike water to my cooler to mash.

I then use my BK to start heating my sparge water.
I drain my cooler into 5 gal buckets, then add my sparge water.
When my BK is empty, I poor my wort into the BK and start my boil.

I use my simple controller to manage the ferocity of my boil.
That and some fermcap!

I love electric! I can brew indoors, safely, even in a Minnesota winter!

I just don't have a HAL9000 running the show for me

Click to expand...

Considering how that movie ended, I should hope you're not wiring Hal9000 into your beer brewing system!

I think it's pretty remarkable the stuff we have at our disposable these days. For $40 I can get a computer that will hold my mash within a tenth of a degree of my temp. Is it absolutely necessary? No, you're right.

But you could also boil wort over an open fire pit and regulate the boil by taking a leak on the fire when it gets too hot.

Just sayin.

Until about two months ago, even with an all-electric system, I was still (happily) using a cooler for a MLT. So it's not like to go electric you need automation and all stainless. The fact that you have the kegs is great, though!

I don't have automation and have no interest in that. But what I think IS critical is a control panel with a PID or PWM for the boil kettle, and a PID or a Johnson digital controller for the HLT.

My old system had a control panel with a PID and switches for the pump, while the HLT had the Johnson controller. That actually worked just fine.

The thing that you want to be able to do is set a temperature for your HLT. That can be done with either a PID or the Johnson controller. There might be other ways, but those are the two I have done. That makes life easier so you can bring (and hold, if necessary) the strike and sparge water to the correct temperature.

If you want to recirculate and hold temperatures or step mash, a HERMS or RIMS would be the way to go.

For the boil kettle, my old system had a PID. That's fine, as you can turn it down to 85% or 75% or whatever once it starts to boil. But my current PWM works just as well for me and it was so much cheaper than a second PID.

I know it's hard to make the decisions, but that's why I brought up so many possibilities. If you buy and build carefully (and PJ is a great resource for the wiring!) you will still be able to upgrade later with ease and not overbuy at the beginning.

Just some things to think about- you have the ability with those sized vessels to do 5 and 10 gallon AG batches. If you want bigger, think about that now. If you want to fly sparge (continuous sparge), you'll need two pumps or a two-tier system. How will you chill? You may need the second pump for chilling (or not). How will you handle the condensation? Opening the garage doors and using a fan? Or adding a ventilation system? It's just some things to consider. Most of this stuff you'll need to consider whether you use propane or electric, so think about your desires/wants/needs for the basics and not necessarily the propane vs electric part of it.

jma99 said:

Hi Guys,

Not to disrespect those super awesome, double chromed, computer controlled, wonder systems, but ask your self a question:

Click to expand...

None taken. For me, part of this hobby is building stuff and playing with gadgets. I don't want to go all out with my project, I just want to build something using the kegs I already have that I can use to control temps easily, work inside when I need to, and that offers repeatability for future batches.

I have to say, I respect some of the cobbled together systems just as much as some of the mega rigs I've seen. There are some really neat ideas floating around. It's all in what you like and works for you.

Yoop-

Those are some great things to think about. I think it's really cool how many ways there are to make great beer, from some really basic set ups to some super complex systems.

Here are some random thoughts crammed into one paragraph.

I intend on doing 10 gallon batches once in a while, but for the most part I'll be doing 5's. I think it might be nice to be able to do step mashes, but I'm not sure that is a priority at this time. I think batch sparging will be just fine for me. I'm definitely going to buy a second pump. I am also going to buy a plate chiller, but I'm not sure which one yet. As for condensation, I know that will be a consideration once I am done and want to brew inside, but for now I'm planning on brewing just outside my garage door, or just inside with a fan if it's raining.

P-J said:

g-love,

You are more than welcome.

You already have your 3 kegs and the stand ready to go so here are some thoughts for you. The first thing is you will need a pump or 2 (a second pump will make your life a lot easier). With that you can set up your system as a HLT (with a heat exchanger for it) a MASH tun (where you circulate your MASH through the HLT heat exchanger to maintain MASH temps) and a BOIL kettle. All of these system components can easily be controlled with a single Auber Instruments PID SYL-2352 and a 40A SSR. You only need 2 heating elements (HLT and BOIL). Oh, and you only need a single temperature probe placed in the HLT.

The set up can be an easy build for you that can and will work very well. There are a lot of things that you can do to make your build a fairly easy adventure. Like using weldless fittings or low temp Silver solder to place components in your kegs.

Please let me know what you decide and we are on the road.

If you want to talk it out a little bit, PM me your tel#.

P-J

Click to expand...

I have one pump, but I planned on buying a second. I bought a chugger, but i'm a little concerned with all the things I've read about them shutting down at higher temps, so I think I'll buy a March as the second. I'll shoot you my number over PM. Again, thanks a ton!

Having moved from propane to electric, I had my love of the gas, but cannot believe how much I prefer my electric build now. SOOO quiet.
Hate to admit it though, I'm a fan of the gadgets, can't complain about the beer, but I love to build the gadgets.

Airplanedoc said:

I just completed a electric setup, PJ is spot on with his comments, the controller was not prohibitively expensive, and pretty simple to wire up it you have basic skills so don't be afraid.

Click to expand...

Do you have a thread dedicated to your build or a schematic/ parts list I could see? I'm still trying to figure out what the best set up for me might be.

My build thread is in my signature

down here
||||
VVVV

stlbeer- Awesome! I usually read HBT on my phone, so the sigs don't show up. I'll try and read through this tomorrow on my laptop if I can. Thanks for putting this together.

If anyone else has a build thread they want to link (hatrickwah I just saw yours too... WOW!), I'd love to check it out. I'm trying to pull together lots of ideas so I can choose which route to go.

P-J said:

g-love,

You are more than welcome.

You already have your 3 kegs and the stand ready to go so here are some thoughts for you. The first thing is you will need a pump or 2 (a second pump will make your life a lot easier). With that you can set up your system as a HLT (with a heat exchanger for it) a MASH tun (where you circulate your MASH through the HLT heat exchanger to maintain MASH temps) and a BOIL kettle. All of these system components can easily be controlled with a single Auber Instruments PID SYL-2352 and a 40A SSR. You only need 2 heating elements (HLT and BOIL). Oh, and you only need a single temperature probe placed in the HLT.

The set up can be an easy build for you that can and will work very well. There are a lot of things that you can do to make your build a fairly easy adventure. Like using weldless fittings or low temp Silver solder to place components in your kegs.

Please let me know what you decide and we are on the road.

If you want to talk it out a little bit, PM me your tel#.

P-J

Click to expand...

I'm resurrecting my own (old) thread because I'm just getting around to making a move on this (I just finished grad school, so that freed up some time!). I am going to shoot for a very basic system like P-J described above. I like the HERMS idea because I've got an extra 50 ft. wort chiller in my closet, so that's something I don't have to buy.

Anyone have a wiring diagram for this build? Any help is appreciated.

g-love said:

I'm resurrecting my own (old) thread because I'm just getting around to making a move on this (I just finished grad school, so that freed up some time!). I am going to shoot for a very basic system like P-J described above. I like the HERMS idea because I've got an extra 50 ft. wort chiller in my closet, so that's something I don't have to buy.

Anyone have a wiring diagram for this build? Any help is appreciated.

Click to expand...

Here is one that is fairly simple to implement:

As always click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")




The controller can be set up in this auberins.com Project Box for 1/16 DIN controller


Hope this helps.

P-J

P-J,

This is huge! I'm super grateful for this!

I am just wrapping up my HERMS build and it's been a heck of a journey but I'm excited to actually start brewing with it. I miss having beer on tap!

I'm sitting here wondering if anybody has done a write up on a very simple build using this or a similar schematic. I searched, but didn't find any. Most of the builds I saw are more involved than what i'm looking at doing.

Any help?

I thought checking out the pics would be nice. I'm going to start sourcing parts next weekend.

P-J (or anyone who has contemplated this):

Quick question. Did we use 4500W elements due to the cost/time trade off? I'm just wondering if it's worth the price difference to use 5500W elements to have faster heating. I know that can only be determined by myself and my bank account, but how much time would the bigger elements save vs. how much more would the stepped up components cost?

I used a 4500 (BK) and a 5500 (HLT), because I plan to do back-to-back brews on a 50a breaker, and wanted to have some comfort room. The cost difference of the element is minimal. The cost difference in what size breaker and wiring you need is a big matter.

I heated 11 gallons of water from 60* to 156* in just over 30 minutes using the 5500w. It works amazingly fast, but the 4500 is plenty good, too.

Thanks BadNews, that was what I was thinking. The cost factor is important, but so is time and I want to make sure I get the most bang for the buck. I'm sure this is the same for most of us.

i just downgraded from 5500w elements to 3500w elements in my HLT and BK so i can use them at the same time on my 30A setup. this way i can heat sparge and HERMS water at the same time, as well as brew back to back batches. i did some math on this and i'm actually using MORE watts worth of heating when using both at once (7k instead of 5.5k) so my initial water should actually heat quicker and i can do the whole volume at once.

this calculator will show you what the different elements will do for a given volume of water, so you can decide if a 5500 is worth it. the diagram PJ drew you shows that you cannot use both at once, so 5500 would just mean slightly faster heating times.

http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.xls

15 gallons @ 4500W from 60F to 160F (100F change in temp) = 51 min
15 gallons @ 5500W from 60F to 160F (100F change in temp) = 42 min

Slakwhere - Thanks for the link. That's exactly what I was looking for. That helps me see that 4500w elements will be plenty for what I need. Using them will help keep the cost low. The minutes saved by jumping to 5500w elements are not worth the increased cost of all the supporting parts needed.

I wasn't second guessing P-J, I hope it wasn't taken that way.

Happy to help

g-love said:

Slakwhere - Thanks for the link. That's exactly what I was looking for. That helps me see that 4500w elements will be plenty for what I need. Using them will help keep the cost low. The minutes saved by jumping to 5500w elements are not worth the increased cost of all the supporting parts needed.

I wasn't second guessing P-J, I hope it wasn't taken that way.

Click to expand...

Not a chance in any way.

Everything in these designs and builds have a HUGE 'depends' attached to them.

I just try to help with my best intent for success.

P-J

Ok.... I'm sourcing parts and learning. I've been reading a ton and digesting as much as possible. I've got another question.

I weld for fun in my spare time. At home, I use a 110 mig, but I intend on stepping up to a better rig in the future and also buying an arc welder. So.... I would like the outlet that I wire in to be able to handle my brew rig, but also my welding needs.

So, am I looking at a 50A situation?

I am guessing I can go 50A breaker in the main panel and a spa panel, which would also be 50A. I would use 6awg between the main and the spa panel. If so, what wire do I run from the spa panel to the brew rig? Can I still get away with 10awg for that purpose?

g-love said:

I am guessing I can go 50A breaker in the main panel and a spa panel, which would also be 50A. I would use 6awg between the main and the spa panel. If so, what wire do I run from the spa panel to the brew rig? Can I still get away with 10awg for that purpose?

Click to expand...

No, you if you went with 10awg you would need to protect it with a 30 amp breaker. If your control panel only requires 30 amps, you could run 6awg from the spa panel to the control panel, have a 30 amp breaker in the control panel, and use 10awg downstream of that breaker.

Alternatively, you could make your spa panel a plug in device, unplug it when you want to free up the 50 amp outlet to weld, plug it in for brewing. In that case, you would run 6awg to the spa panel, put an additional 30 amp breaker in the spa panel downstream of the 50 amp GFCI, and run 10awg from the spa panel to the control panel.

Have fun.

Jeffmeh - makes total sense. Thanks for the input, it's much appreciated and the reason why I love HBT so much.

P-J,

Would you be able to update my diagram with a timer added in? I was looking at the JSL-71 from auber.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=290

I think it'd be convenient to have it included in the CP.

Also, I've been looking at TiberBrew's build and wondering if I should be using a contactor for the elements.... Thoughts?

Thanks for your help.

g-love said:

P-J,

Would you be able to update my diagram with a timer added in? I was looking at the JSL-71 from auber.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=290

I think it'd be convenient to have it included in the CP.

Also, I've been looking at TiberBrew's build and wondering if I should be using a contactor for the elements.... Thoughts?

Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

Give me a little time to sort this one out. I'll make a new diagram for you.

P-J

No rush. Many thanks P-J!