This question is for the advanced hard cider makers

Lets talk blends:

What do you folks think are good blends of Apple varieties to make hard cider.

Which English cider apples, which French cider apples and/or which Dessert apples and the % of each type.

I am not really an "advanced" cider make, but I have talked to them. Kingston Black is considered one of the top cider varietals. Farnum Hill in NH uses this apple in their premium ciders. May be hard to source this juice. Last year I made my cider with equal parts Reine des Reinnetes, Roxbury Russet, and D'arcy Spice. Made for a full-bodied, but tart cider. It's been slowly mellowing and I like it, but I would like to get a little less acid next round. I plan to try 71B 1122 yeast this year rather than the Champagne yeast, which may help. Also hope to get my cider provider to get me either straight Kingston Black or Roxbury Russet. Let me know what you try and how it works and I will do the same.

Dabinett and Yarlington mill are regarded as two top bittersweet varieties. They are late harvest and the late apples get longer to ripen and develop flavor. Somerset redstreak and Tremlett's bitter are well regarded early varieties. The bittersweets need to be blended with something high acid like brown's apple to give a bit of balance, or a cooking apple of some sort. The problem with late varieties is that pests, bad weather and diseases make them more risky. I have bird problems and if I rely on late varieties, sometimes I wouldn't get any apples at all. The best apples are the ones you can get hold of, but if you can plant an orchard and wait for it to fruit then you can get some really good fruit.
Most people agree that a blend will give a better flavor, the french use a lot of different varieties in their cider.

Soapbox/

Here's my philosophy.

There is no such thing as a 'good' or 'bad' cider apple, only 'good' or 'bad' cider makers. It's all about the ability to understand the relationships between aroma, acid, sugar, how the fermentation process impacts these qualities, and how the human palate perceives them.

Certainly, there are some apples that are easier to work with since they are more balanced from the start (Kingston Black, Dabinette etc.), while some are more challenging since they may be lacking one or more crucial qualities, and blending becomes necessary (Golden Delicious, Silkin, wild crabs etc). Then there is your local cider style and terroir to consider. Around here, Northern Spy is a commonly used cider apple which is shaping the local cider profile and influencing the area's cider style.

If you used the exact same blend of apples as a well regarded French cider the final product would be wildly different since the bay area climate is different from Normandy, and American production techniques are different from the French. Find what apple varieties grow well in your area and learn their strengths and weaknesses and adapt to work with them. Develop your own regions unique cider!

/Soapbox

A great resource is Andrew Lea's book - http://www.amazon.com/dp/1904871984/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
ditto for the newly released - http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/the_new_cider_makers_handbook/
and Anne Proulx - http://www.amazon.com/dp/1580175201/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

LeBreton said:

There is no such thing as a 'good' or 'bad' cider apple, only 'good' or 'bad' cider makers. It's all about the ability to understand the relationships between aroma, acid, sugar, how the fermentation process impacts these qualities, and how the human palate perceives them.

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LeBreton pretty much nails it. Cidermaking is a lot more technique than fruit although understanding fruit is crucial.

As far as some benchmarks beginner rules, some people say 50% dessert fruit, 25% sharps and 25% bittersharps. Others say a third of each. In general, I try to aim for around 3.5 pH and try an get at least some good tannins in there. Of course, a lot of what we drink on the American cider landscape right now has no tannins at all.

Bittersharp said:

LeBreton pretty much nails it. Cidermaking is a lot more technique than fruit although understanding fruit is crucial.

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I don't agree, I think it's all about the fruit. You can make a good cider from just about any well ripened apples, but if you want to improve your cider you need to improve your fruit. No amount of blending will turn ordinary dessert fruit into a good English style cider, things like yeast and fermentation temperature will make some difference but not as much as fruit. You might not have much choice of fruit but it is important to make sure it is as ripe as possible, from healthy trees.

The last 2 years I have made 2 apple ciders which I have named 'Road Cider', basically because I have collected all the apples from roadside trees. Not far from where I live apple orchards dominated the landscape around the late 1800's and early 1900's, and many are still in operation but its hardly what it used to be. The remnants of those days are everywhere, I can literally drive along stopping to pick all manner of apples from wild roadside trees, totally neglected but still surviving. Some trees bearing a few small and rough looking fruits and other trees standing tall with hundreds of big healthy apples.
Both those ciders have turned out to be absolutely wonderful, despite the nature of the fruits, im not too fussy I take anything whether or not it looks nice or is full of grubs.
In comparison I have made a couple of single apple ciders, and I like thier own unique flavours, but in general the mixed apples makes for a better finish and flavour. My 'Road Ciders' are now a new tradition to me, I cant wait for next year to do it again.

Ratters... I like your style! Wish I could try one of your "Road Ciders"! I understand the need for, and the use of "advanced cider making" but some of the best I have tasted and made were made on a wing and a prayer. I try to have at least one unconventional gal. going at all times. Sometime failure, sometimes sweet surprise.
Sorry Badger I wasn't meaning to make light of your question. Just a Friday night of drinking.

Have to disagree with LeBreton, I think there are apples that do not make useful contributions to cider and can therefore be called "bad" cider apples. I'd put many of the commonest dessert fruits in this category. But then, I say that many of the widely-sold ciders in America are bad ciders, so maybe I'm not a reliable witness.

Having said that, to answer the OP, I grow and ferment a fairly large number of cider cultivars, and have been experimenting with blends for several years now. My #1 recommendation is actually an old American apple, King David, which (at least in my climate/soil) develops enough tannin to be considered a bittersweet, and its fruit character persists through fermentation better than any other variety I've tried. It actually is too fruity for a single-varietal, IMO, but 30% to 60% of it blended with almost anything else will make a pretty good cider. With Muscat deBernay it can make a GREAT cider.

Some of my best blends have been:
60% King David, 40% Muscat deBernay
40% Muscat deBernay, 30% King David, 30% King of Tompkins
40% Taylor's, 40% Ashmead's Kernel, 20% Cox's Orange Pippin
60% Golden Russet, 40% Yarlington Mill
30% Sweet Coppin, 30% Tale Sweet, 20% Porter's Perfection, 20% Cox's

I'm in a cool-summer climate with lean sandy soil, and those conditions seem to favor tannin development over sugar. If you are in a hot-summer climate you might need less of the sweets (Golden Russet, King of Tompkins, Cox's, Ashmead's, Tale Sweet, Sweet Coppin) and more of the bittersweets (King David, Muscat deBernay, Taylor's, Yarlington Mill). You might also notice I have few sharps, because I don't like acidic ciders and get plenty of acid from the other fruit - again, probably my climate. YMMV.

Bittersharp said:

some people say 50% dessert fruit, 25% sharps and 25% bittersharps. Others say a third of each.

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Given that dessert fruit is quite acidic - otherwise it is cloyingly sweet - this ends up being way too sharp, IMO, once the sugars are fermented out. The traditional advice is 50% sweets, which are not the same thing as dessert fruit; sweets are high-sugar, low-acid cider apples, and are not particularly good to eat.

Most North American apples have plenty of acidity, so I have never found any need for sharps in my blends at all. I do grow and use Porter's Perfection, which is listed as a bittersharp, and blend it with my low-acid fruit (and then often ferment it with 71B to reduce acidity!).

The acidity can change a lot over different vintages, in a hot year it is important to have sharps to balance the low acid varieties. In a cool year it's not so important.

Albionwood said:

Have to disagree with LeBreton, I think there are apples that do not make useful contributions to cider and can therefore be called "bad" cider apples. I'd put many of the commonest dessert fruits in this category. But then, I say that many of the widely-sold ciders in America are bad ciders, so maybe I'm not a reliable witness.

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With respect, I think you may be confusing 'good' and 'bad' with cider you either like or don't. Just because you don't like most of the macro ciders in the US doesn't mean they're bad. Most that I've tried were well made and free of off flavors or faults. I don't like them either since they're much too sweet, but to call them 'bad' based on that is biased. Kinda like how people respond to the BMC bashing crowd on the rest of this forum. You may not like Bud Lite, but it's still a well made beer.

I'm just against labeling certain apples as being bad for cider. Even withing a single varietal of apple there is a range of what will be produced due to growing season, cloning history, and terroir. For example, your listed Golden Russet and Tompkins King as sweets as gown in your cold summer and sandy soil while around here (hot summer, limestone clay soil) both of those produce enough acid to be solidly in the sharp category.

I'd hate for people to discount a certain apple variety for cider because someone halfway around the world doesn't like it.



Oh, and this blend?

Albionwood said:

40% Muscat deBernay, 30% King David, 30% King of Tompkins

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. . . sounds delicious.

LeBreton, you make some good points, and it's true that I conflated "don't like" with "bad." Still there are some macro ciders that I think ARE badly made - they are unbalanced, lack natural apple character, and try to make it up with flavoring - the dreaded "Jolly Rancher" character, or the weird caramel sweetness. Agree with you about "much too sweet" and would add that it isn't an apple sweetness, just a sugar addition to cover up the flaws (lack of flavor, acidity imbalance, etc).

As far as fruit goes, I still maintain there are varieties that are simply not good for cider. Granny Smith comes to mind - despite the marketing of a commercial cider with that name - it just doesn't have anything to contribute besides acidity, which can be obtained from much better cider apples. The OP wanted to know what blends would be good for cider, and I would never recommend GS. I would also call any apple that makes juice of less than 11 Brix (SG 1.045) bad for cider.

And you are right about that blend - it was delicious. KofT isn't generally thought of as a cider apple, but it gets really sweet here, perhaps because it ripens a little earlier than others and so is overripe by the time I am pressing... I don't know if it contributed much flavor, but the KD and MdB sure did.

gregbathurst said:

The acidity can change a lot over different vintages, in a hot year it is important to have sharps to balance the low acid varieties. In a cool year it's not so important.

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You're probably right, I wouldn't know because we basically never get a hot summer here. Even in the sunniest summers I sweat my fruit to get as much sugar and as little acid as possible, and still struggle to keep acidity within my target range.

I think you would find your generalisations don't hold for other climates. Grannysmith was bred in a warm climate, sydney Australia. If it ripens in warm conditions it develops real fruitiness, probably quite different to what you are used to. I agree that there aren't bad apples, just some are better than others in different circumstances. In a cool climate you will do better with "old world" varieties, because the tannin and cider flavours make up for the lack of fruity flavours. In warmer climates you get a "new world" style cider flavour, with fruit flavours more up-front, the tannins don't need to be so dominant. They are different styles of cider but both have their adherents. I like both so long as they are well made, but not too sweet please.

Yes, I try to always note that my climate, soil, and water conditions are significantly different from almost anyone else's, and so my experience may not be a reliable guide for anyone in hot-summer areas. (Note however that other cider makers in hot-summer areas of northern California get similar results from King David.)

I am somewhat surprised to read your defence of Grannys though, because even the commercial fruit here - grown in very hot-summer regions - doesn't seem to have much flavor or fruitiness. It is a popular alternative to the overly-sweet Delicious varieties, but Fuji beats the pants off Granny for flavor, IMO. Maybe Aussie growers are use different practices - perhaps less fertilizer and less irrigation? - than the Washington State growers.

I agree completely with your observations about climate affecting style. Well put.

Re grannysmith, the can develop a lot more flavour if left longer on the tree to ripen. Personally I would prefer a grannysmith to a fuji for eating, though perhaps that is nationalistic pride.

Albionwood said:

As far as fruit goes, I still maintain there are varieties that are simply not good for cider. Granny Smith comes to mind - despite the marketing of a commercial cider with that name - it just doesn't have anything to contribute besides acidity, which can be obtained from much better cider apples. The OP wanted to know what blends would be good for cider, and I would never recommend GS. I would also call any apple that makes juice of less than 11 Brix (SG 1.045) bad for cider.

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It seems as though were are generally in agreement, as Granny Smith around here has all the complexity and flavor of tart tap water. I just like to believe that someone, somewhere could make a great cider out of it with the right blend and execution, apparently Australia still has a chance!

You raise a very good point about apples with low brix. There are apples out there that even fermented out completely would be unstable, and if going for an arrested fermentation would be near useless. I may have missed the forest for the trees on that one, although I would think that most named apple cultivars cross that threshold as we humans tend to have a sweet (or alcoholic) tooth.

Albionwood said:

And you are right about that blend - it was delicious. KofT isn't generally thought of as a cider apple, but it gets really sweet here, perhaps because it ripens a little earlier than others and so is overripe by the time I am pressing... I don't know if it contributed much flavor, but the KD and MdB sure did.

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I think we'll chalk that one up to terroir. Here in Tompkins county it grows vigorously and develops a very rich flavor. Technically classified as a sharp, it's commonly ~14 brix and used as a multipurpose apple, with fresh, culinary and even cider applications (at least around here). Although most wouldn't regard it as a 'cider apple' it would seem that, historically speaking, the US has practically no cultivars grown exclusively for cider. Virginia's Hews Crab being the only one I can think of and it is quite geographically limited. It would seem that cider was made from whatever apples grew well locally, with first rate fruit being sold for eating and seconds being turned into cider for sale as a value added product as well as for in-house consumption, or dehydrated and shipped for processing elsewhere, depending on the market value.

gregbathurst said:

I think you would find your generalisations don't hold for other climates. Grannysmith was bred in a warm climate, sydney Australia. If it ripens in warm conditions it develops real fruitiness, probably quite different to what you are used to. I agree that there aren't bad apples, just some are better than others in different circumstances. In a cool climate you will do better with "old world" varieties, because the tannin and cider flavours make up for the lack of fruity flavours. In warmer climates you get a "new world" style cider flavour, with fruit flavours more up-front, the tannins don't need to be so dominant. They are different styles of cider but both have their adherents. I like both so long as they are well made, but not too sweet please.

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*slow clap*

This year (southern hemisphere summer-autumn) I had warm, sunny weather right through ripening, temperatures in the mid to high 20s C and no cloudy days, except a few days rain. My Grannysmiths developed a red blush from all the sun and 16 brix. I still wouldn't say they were great cider apples, but had a fair bit of flavour and were worth using. My best apples this year were egremont russets, they got to 25 brix.

Wish I had some Egremonts - I grow Roxbury and Golden Russet, and Ashmead's Kernel which to me is like a russet, but no Egs.

Granny Smith didn't work out well enough for me, it grew vigorously and fruited well but the fruit just wasn't good enough - it was outcompeted by Rhode Island Greening - so I reworked my trees 3 years ago, and am now getting Karmijn de Sonnaville (strictly for the table) and King David!

25 brix! That's approximately where the Pinot Noir we harvested this weekend ended up (with just a little raisining). Never even seen an apple above 20 in these parts, I'll be happy if my orchard averages better than 15. Chisel Jersey and Michelin will be harvested this Wednesday, with big things expected from this year's Dabinette (probably next week) and Medaille d'Or(2+ weeks out).

Here's hoping for an Indian summer!

Some years I average around 12 brix, usually around 14, but the weather in Australia is very unreliable, sometimes I lose most of my crop to frost.

Mine are usually between 13 and 15, rarely 12, and in good years up to 17 for certain blends. Golden Russet, Kingston Black, Ashmead's, and Sweet Coppin always seem to yield high-gravity juice, usually above 15. In good years with sunshine and warmth, so does King David; in the (more usual) foggy cool summers, it is around 14.

Last year's best was Golden Russet+Muscadet deDieppe+Binet Rouge, OG 1.068. Haven't tapped it yet!

When your sugar levels are high you can't drink as much cider because the abv gets too high. My cider is around 8-9% this year, I have had to cut back on my consumption. I prefer when it is around 7.5%, then I can drink more. (I will never dilute my cider). The big advantage of cider over wine is you can drink it rather than sipping.