Raw Ale / No Boil

Haven't done them because right now I'm just into drinking super low ABV beers. You should make one and tell us how it goes!

Also still no detectable DMS from anyone who has had these, although I'm aware that there can be trace amounts that are imperceptible. Interested in the bitterness being from oxidized beta acids instead of isomerization too, although I'm not sure how to play around with that.

Another thing I'm curious about is the body of these have all been better than the commercial session IPAs I've had, so I'm guessing something is going on with the proteins that is making a positive impact on that feature.

I'm going to have to read up on this! Pretty dang interesting!

Reporting back.

I've been on this procedure for the past few months and love it. I'll just add a couple of my findings. I've been keg fermenting w/ a spunding valve to achieve the ultimate in laziness/no O2 pickup. As such, it's really important to do a whirlpool AND not short yourself on wort. What I mean is, you don't want to be sucking in those last running of wort into your keg to get a full keg. I'm obsessed with filling kegs completely, and as much as it pains me not be able to do so, you end up tasting the smegma you pulled in there for the first several pints which can be kind of off-putting as a first impression.

Ok, so I've read this post, as well as a few articles online. If you're basically able to achieve the same beer, regardless of the hop situation (I don't care for hoppy beers anyways), why wouldn't everyone switch to this method?

I'm definitely not being sarcastic, but absolutely serious. Since from what I read it shaves quite a bit of time and money, why not just switch to this?

What are the downsides? Does the beer not last as long in bottle? Am I missing something? With this, technically, you could make as much beer as your cooler/mash tun could hold correct?

I am starting to be convinced after making this many beers without boiling that it is legit, but like so many things in homebrewing, we are influenced by tradition, our own habits, and fear of something ruining the beer.

I remember asking a LHBS crew if they ever actually did a 20m boil with Pilsner malt, and they said "if you do that then your beer will taste like creamed corn" and I said "I've heard that, but have you ever, or known of anyone ever actually TRYING it" and the guy said "why do that when you know it will ruin your beer?" That has been my experience with dozens of things, no boil being maybe the biggest. (also why I love the Brulosophy exBeeriments so much).

The biggest boogeyman here is worrying that the bugs inherently on the grain will survive and infect the beer. If you read up on pasteurization, you learn that fear isn't realistic at all, and lacto and these other bugs don't magically die at 212. Only rarely would it even live through a few mins at mashing temps in the 150s. This is why when you do a kettle sour, you don't throw the bugs in until you're below 120.

In terms of no boil, there are a lot of extract kits that you don't need to boil, so there is already a precedent for it, but not with all grain. So far, for the type of beers I make, the boil would add nothing that I can explicitly identify. I haven't done shelf stability tests so that's a great question, and I personally haven't brewed a range of styles or those with normal ABV, so maybe there are issues with those that are not coming into play here? That's also a really going point about the volume, you don't need that extra space for the boil over, because the mash out / pasteurization step is well under boiling so the volume doesn't change much at all from the mash as it warms.

Some things that I think no boil adds (besides more time in my day) is more body and possibly better head retention, I'm guessing from proteins not breaking down the same way they might in a boil, but a science person may correct me on that. If more people did this, then I do honestly think it could catch on.

These are quick fermenter to in hand drinking beers? Or regular time? 2 weeks in primary, bottle, condition for another two, fridge for a week, etc?

This just seems crazy not to jump on this bandwagon, especially if you want to brew a big batch but are limited on brew kettle size.

I'm not saying I won't boil or whatever, but if this is a great fix for 3-4% brews, hey why not.

(I'm sort of limited on brew kettle size, so as I'm reading this, I am thinking "I could do 8-10 gallons of this stuff, and not have to worry about having a big enough brew kettle!")

On the age of the raw beer, http://mutedog.beer/blog/raw-brett-ale-tasting this guy fermented his for FOUR Months! I can't hardly imagine time being of the essence to drink it if he's fermenting it for 4 months?

Just cool stuff to think about.

I do a standard fermentation and bottle conditioning process. Usually my yeast is done in a few days depending on the strain, I dry hop on the 5th, bottle on the 10th, drink on the 20th-24th depending on my patience. I read that Mute Dog post when I was researching, but he did his fermenting with wilds and brett, so that's prob why it took so long. The main phase from my most recent with rehydrated s-04 at 66 degrees was like 2.5 days.

Glad this all got you thinking, if you try it, please share your results!

I definitely will! It'll be a couple of moths maybe, as I get my feet more wet as I'm honestly just getting into brewing.

But, the historical aspect of it, plus the ability to brew a large amount of beer without having to boil it is very appealing to me at this point in the game.

Maybe there should be a new threat or forum column(?) for "No Boil Brews" if it starts to gain some steam? I realize, at this point, a few threads on here can't justify it. However, if the trend started to grow, hey, why not?

I'm actually pretty stoked to try it and may actually try it on a 2 gallon upcoming batch since it wouldn't take near as much time.

It's worth mentioning that I collect all of my runnings and bring them up to 76c for both pasteurization and hop steeping. So to that effect, you'd still need a container large enough to accomplish that.

Disadvantages? My beers have a grainy edge BUT I do feel like it benefits the 3% beers I like to make. Also, they take a bit longer to clear out. Possibly long-term stability? I don't know.

Otherwise, give it a go and see if it works for you. If it's any indication of to how I feel about the process, I make 10 gallon batches of no boil

Just out of curiosity, and I always hate raising questions as I've never done it, and you guys have extensive experience with brewing all together compared to me, but when you add your strike water, and mash at 152+ for an hour, wouldn't that be sufficient to pasteurize?

Also, just out of curiosity, why not add your hops directly to the mash at different intervals throughout the mash perhaps?

Just thinking on it.

The mash temp probably is enough to get it done actually. I take the extra step to be more certain, for doing a hopstand at a higher temp, and because I had also heard that mash hopping doesn't do much for hop character because the hop compounds attach to the grains and don't end up in the wort at the levels you'd want. HOWEVER I had not tried it or thought about whether this would be different for no boil. I'm going to do some research and may try it for the next one. Thanks for the ideas!

This is awesome stuff! I can't wait to give this a shot!

SuckaMooHudda said:

BOOM!! That just happened!! Very interesting post.

BUT...on the other side, I love it when people attempt to break tradition, or whatever we call the "typical brewing process". "Experts" can tell you what has been done, and usually they will also tell you that certain things that cannot be done. I say, F-em all. Keep pluggin' away and prove that our brew days can be done in 90 minutes with no off flavors or the likes!!

BTW, can I get your Chocolate Oatmeal Stout recipe, please?

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Sure - I will get you the recipe when I get back home from vacation.

I couldn't find it in a quick search, but in the past year the session on the brewing network interviewed a brewery in CA that does raw beers. It might have been the libertine brewery near morro rock. If you can find them they might help.

Nice find! Anyone in CA to try it? https://untappd.com/b/the-libertine-pub-boardroom/1350474

squaremile said:

The mash temp probably is enough to get it done actually. I take the extra step to be more certain, for doing a hopstand at a higher temp, and because I had also heard that mash hopping doesn't do much for hop character because the hop compounds attach to the grains and don't end up in the wort at the levels you'd want. HOWEVER I had not tried it or thought about whether this would be different for no boil. I'm going to do some research and may try it for the next one. Thanks for the ideas!

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Absolutely everything Squaremile said plus, at least in my setup, it's only a few degrees away from 76c/168f anyways so it's nice peace of mind. At 76c, I'm able to get more than enough hop character in my hoppy session beers. I don't know if that would be true of 67c/152f.

Tactical-Brewer said:

These are quick fermenter to in hand drinking beers? Or regular time? 2 weeks in primary, bottle, condition for another two, fridge for a week, etc?

On the age of the raw beer, http://mutedog.beer/blog/raw-brett-ale-tasting this guy fermented his for FOUR Months! I can't hardly imagine time being of the essence to drink it if he's fermenting it for 4 months?

Just cool stuff to think about.

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I'm usually drinking it by 14 days (even as little as 7 in a pinch) but I also ferment and carbonate (look into the wonders of a spunding valve) in the keg.

I think the 4 month ferment was more targeted at the brett more than the process of no boil.

Holy cow! 14 Days? I guess with kegging that's more of a possibility than with bottles, right?

I won't be doing any kegging for a long time, but I need to get a brew I can consistently have in the pipeline that's ready to drink in about 4 weeks time bottled. maybe a light pale ale or something. Gonna try raw in my next brew.

SuckaMooHudda said:

BOOM!! That just happened!! Very interesting post.

BUT...on the other side, I love it when people attempt to break tradition, or whatever we call the "typical brewing process". "Experts" can tell you what has been done, and usually they will also tell you that certain things that cannot be done. I say, F-em all. Keep pluggin' away and prove that our brew days can be done in 90 minutes with no off flavors or the likes!!

BTW, can I get your Chocolate Oatmeal Stout recipe, please?

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MALT:

9.00 lbs Pale malt (I used regular 2-row but any pale base malt would be appropriate)
0.75 lbs Roasted Barley (I used a UK malt for this)
0.75 lbs Pale Chocolate
0.50 lbs Flaked Barley
0.50 lbs Flaked Oats
0.25 lbs Crystal 60L

HOPS:

15g Warrior (Pellet) FWH (60 minute boil)
82g EKG (Flower) @ 5 minutes

MISC:

0.5 Campden tab @ 60 minutes
0.5 Whirfloc tab @ 10 minutes
1.5 tsp yeast nutrient @ 10 minutes

YEAST:

WLP004 Irish Ale Yeast

MASH:

Single infusion @ 153F for 60 minutes @ 1.5qt/lb

Sparge to hit ~7 gallons of wort or however much you typically need to achieve a 5.5 gallon batch size with a 60 minute boil.

For this beer I used a couple of gallons of spring water mixed in with RO but you can add salts to taste preference.

Are you saying you're doing a no boil version of that? Very curious how it will turn out!

I'd be curious about a no boil stout as well!

Side note, @aprichman, is the campden tab mainly there for chlorine or to kill the yeast? Sorry if it's a stupid question, just never seen it in a beer recipe yet.

I'd be curious to see how a no boil stout works as well!

Side note, aprichman, is the campden tab there for the chlorine or bacteria, yeast? Sorry if it's a stupid question, just haven't seen it in a beer recipe yet.

Tactical-Brewer said:

I'd be curious to see how a no boil stout works as well!

Side note, aprichman, is the campden tab there for the chlorine or bacteria, yeast? Sorry if it's a stupid question, just haven't seen it in a beer recipe yet.

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I toss a 1/2 tab into my HLT (a 5.5 gallon batch usually starts with around 9-10 gallons of water for me) to treat my water for chloramines. Lately I've been treating my water as a precaution even though I usually only use RO water and build my water profile via salts. This time I got lazy and used some store bought spring water to up the mineral content since I didn't have the exact salts I needed and I had to get ready to leave town for a couple of weeks. I was in a bit of a rush to get this beer brewed and put into my fermentation chamber before I left town.

My approach is that treating the water in the HLT is good practice since I can't verify if the spring water or even the RO water contains low levels of chloramines. Even at low levels chloramines can lead to some nasty off flavors that can ruin a good beer. Treating for chloramines in this way takes the guesswork out of it and I never have to worry about it being a problem.

It's a bit cautious of an approach, but I have a ton of campden tabs (they're really cheap) and since I'm planning on using city water with a filter like this I just started adding it to my brewing routine one day.

Would be interested to see your results @SuckaMooHudda if you decide to make this no boil or not

Awesome on the Campden Tabs. My girlfriend makes a bunch of wine so I'm sure I've got them available. I may just have to start as well since I'm using city water.

I started no-boil in an effort to go full-retard on the brewing process. Here's an outline of my process:

1: Collect 51L (for my high 2% session beers) of carbon filtered water the night before, treat with campden also. Sitting overnight allows the currently frigid tap water to come up to room temp/off gas.

2. Move all 51L (full volume mash) into my mashtun. Heat within the mashtun with an immersion element 4.5c hotter than desired mash temp. Stir in grain. Mash for 30 minutes.

3. Lauter into kettle. Collect 45L~ish of wort. Bring to 76c. Hopsteep w/ 8oz of hops for 30 mins. Add whifloc.

4. Remove hopsack. Squeeze the sack. Immersion chiller down to pitching temperature. Recover immersion chiller hot water to clean other stuff + make an appropriately tempered water bath for kegs to ferment in for later.

5. Whirlpool like an SOB and let it sit for 30 minutes while you prep your empty kegs.

6. Pour my yeast starters into each keg then transfer wort into kegs and replenish yeast starters.

7. Add fermcap-S to each keg, set lid with 30 psi, purge 30 psi, connect spunding valve.

8. Ferment.

9. Night before putting keg into kegerator, lay keg outside on its side so that a majority of the smegma collects on the side. Carefully move into kegerator & start drankin'.

I just stumbled over this thread, and this sounds like something I have to do. I am tempted however to try a post-fermentation boil, similar to this, except with more or less regular hop additions. Together with a high mash temperature, this may be a way of creating full flavored, low-alcohol beer.

Wow I hadn't seen anything like that before! I'm guessing oxidation would be an issue, but there's lots of unique profiles you can prob develop with that combo!

@ghohn, our processes are really similar. I mash for 20m, and just throw the hops in, but otherwise pretty close.

Tactical-Brewer said:

Holy cow! 14 Days? I guess with kegging that's more of a possibility than with bottles, right?

I won't be doing any kegging for a long time, but I need to get a brew I can consistently have in the pipeline that's ready to drink in about 4 weeks time bottled. maybe a light pale ale or something. Gonna try raw in my next brew.

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I have a Centennial Blonde that was still a little green at 1 week in the bottle, but I imagine at week 2, it will be fine.

A lot of beers are "ready" at 4 weeks in the bottle... sometimes even if they call for more conditioning time. I had a stout that was wonderful at 2 weeks that called for 6 months conditioning. It might be better at 6 months, but it was great at 2 weeks!

:fro:

squaremile said:

@ghohn, our processes are really similar. I mash for 20m, and just throw the hops in, but otherwise pretty close.

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So you collect your runnings with no further heating right?

All I can say is WOW!! I just stumbled onto this thread today. I'm an unrepentant iconoclast, mercilessly challenging convention at every opportunity, so this appeals to me greatly. I've never moved beyond BIAB, because I see the only benefit to conventional brewing is the filter effect of the grain bed...... and that at the cost of time and potential stuck sparges. I never boil longer than 30 minutes anymore as I see absolutely no benefit for me, I hop pretty heavily anyway...... Is it worth boiling an additional 30 minutes to save a quarter ounce of hops??? I mash either 20-30 minutes or all afternoon while I'm at work..........and see very little difference in the result, probably because beta amylase has a very short life before being denatured at my typical 152 mash temp.
For me the issue is time........ I like to brew weekly, but don't want it to be a 4 hour process. Actual time expended per brew if I go straight through start to finish is about 2.5 hours for me..........I can't beat that much. NO boil takes it to another level.

I propose doing a "hop boil" in a mason jar (sealed) during the mash, using only water, or some DME. This would be strictly for bittering. I have done this and it does work. I forget exactly why, but it was part of another exbeeriment.


H.W.

The next step is obviously to eliminate the mash and boil altogether, and brew like rice wine / saki, where the fermentation and mashing takes place at the same time, doing a hop boil in a sealed mason jar, and adding it at some point. I have both "Chinese yeast balls", and a half liter of AG300 (fungal amylase), intended to be added to the fermenter. Gelatinization temps would need to be reached, it could include both malted and/or unmalted grains, raw out of the field or lightly kilned.....or not so lightly. There really are no "rules" for brewing, just traditions.


H.W.

He possibilities are definitely crazy to think about

If there is concern for hop utilization, you can use isomerizd hop extract. Hop extract works great for bittering.

helibrewer said:

If there is concern for hop utilization, you can use isomerizd hop extract. Hop extract works great for bittering.

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But not for hop flavor. And will it have the same antimicrobial properties that regular hopping does?

Owly055 said:

The next step is obviously to eliminate the mash and boil altogether, and brew like rice wine / saki, where the fermentation and mashing takes place at the same time, doing a hop boil in a sealed mason jar, and adding it at some point. I have both "Chinese yeast balls", and a half liter of AG300 (fungal amylase), intended to be added to the fermenter. Gelatinization temps would need to be reached, it could include both malted and/or unmalted grains, raw out of the field or lightly kilned.....or not so lightly. There really are no "rules" for brewing, just traditions.

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Barley is covered with Lacto and possibly other microbes. Unless you kill them, chances are the bacteria will create off flavors.
At least 152 for 30+ minutes has a good chance of killing most microbes. And if you mash out at >160 for a few minutes, you are even more likely to be safe.

So you could mash at 152 for your regular 60 minutes if you chose, and then sparge @ 168 and be set correct?

Working in the food industry I'd say you would have to get the entire wort above 161 for it to be pasteurized

I see lots of possibilities.

I've already adopted BIAB and no-chill (or "partial-chill" I like to call it, just dunking the kettle into a utility sink of cold water to <140°F before transferring to the carboy). I'm still pot-on-a-stovetop, and it does take me a long time--even when also using a 120v heat stick--to get my 5-6gallons of wort to boiling. So I'd love to see the boil step removed, it'd easily save me 90min (or more) on a brewday, plus of course energy costs.

Whirlfloc (or kappa carrageenan) after the mashout and gelatin fining (if necessary) for clarity in styles that need it, and I guess using somewhat darker base grains (Maris Otter, Briess Ashburne Mild) to minimize DMS...I could see this working for less-than-dark styles.

Obviously you're not boiling off water, so that is going to limit you somewhat in terms of achievable gravity all-grain...but I suppose you could add back extract, maybe a little adjunct sugar--maybe mash-out a little higher temp (185°F?) to compensate for the cooling when you add those in after pulling the bag? There's also a little trick I like to call "fake decoction" where I'll do a "side boil" of about 1gal of the full-volume mash in a smaller pot while the mash commences in the big kettle, the stovetop can do that easily during the 45-60min mash, and I can lose ~2-3qts of water AND develop some of that kettle color / flavor (as long as mash pH is good, never had a tannin problem doing this). In any case, I see no reason you couldn't get OG's up to the mid-1.050's with ~70-75% mash efficiency even without a boil, and with little to no adjunct. Maybe the mid-1.060's+ with some extract/sugars.

In my experience, I can believe that your typical "hopstand" hops (added, say at ~180°F for ~15min before chilling) give you bitterness at about the equivalent of 5min of boiling as per the calculators. I also can believe that hops added at ~140°F for the duration of the "no-chill (i.e., for me, the time between carboy transfer and when it cools enough in the ferm fridge to pitch, typically 16-24hrs) gives you bitterness at about the equivalent of about 2min boiling as per the calculators. So I can easily see where you could get Pale Ale levels of bittering (30-40 IBU) from reasonable amounts of reasonable-AA% hops. I don't know that you'd be able to achieve IPA IBU levels, although I guess with enough super-AA hops, maybe. I guess you could also put some bittering hops in the "side boil." I've tried pre-isomerized alpha extracts and I do not like them...the bittering is IMO not as much as claimed, and they always add a weird "soapy" taste. But HopShots I do like...again, maybe in the side-boil mash? Maybe in a side-boil of just sugar water? I don't suppose there's any reason you couldn't do an IPA with this method.

And speaking of a side-boil, if you've got some ingredients you'd really like to make sure get sterilized (maybe lactose, maybe spices, maybe cocoa powder or PB2 or citrus zest or whatever), or that maybe need some gelatinization (steel cut oats, flaked corn, whatever) I don't see any reason you couldn't side-boil those. No reason I couldn't make my mocha café oatmeal milk stout or my grapefruit IPA with this method.

And if it really does help with head retention (and body?) then bye-bye bits of CaraPils and wheat malts? Single-malt might be easier to pull off.

Been looking for a new process modification, I'm so going to try this.

Funny, but after reading through this whole thread and lots of similar ones on the MTF group, and I'm all in to try this method as well. I'm going to start by using it for quick-turn sours and see how it goes. Here's a recipe I threw together in Brewer's friend. Love to hear any feedback or suggestions.

----------------------------

Title: Gose Before Hoes

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Gose
Boil Time: 0 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 6.76 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.048
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.054*
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 5.48%
IBU (tinseth): 9.36
SRM (morey): 4.17

FERMENTABLES:
5.4 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (45.4%)
5.4 lb - American - White Wheat (45.4%)
0.6 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (5%)
0.5 lb - Rice Hulls (4.2%)

HOPS:
3 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 5 min at 180 °F, IBU: 9.36**

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 149 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 4.5 gal, Single Infusion @149
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Time: 15 min, Vorlauf, Batch Sparge
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirlfloc, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
28 g - Ground Corriander Seed, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
21 g - Sea Salt, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
28 g - Lime Zest, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
28 g - Orange Zest, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
4 oz - Lime Juice, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
4 oz - Orange Juice, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F
Fermentation Temp: 58 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)
Additional Yeast: Swansons L. Plantarum capsules

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Pilsen (Light Lager)
Ca2: 7
Mg2: 3
Na: 2
Cl: 5
SO4: 5
HCO3: 25
Water Notes:

NOTES:
- Make 1L 1.04 OG starter 4 days prior to brew day with 8 Swansons L. Plantarum capsules.

- Start by conditioning grain with 3.6 oz RO water (by weight), mix well, and allow to sit for 10 minutes prior to grinding.

- Mash and sparge as usual and collect runnings into boil kettle.

- Heat wort to 180F then add hops, Whirlfloc, Corrainder, and Sea salt.

- Cool to 95F and then transfer to fermenter. Pitch lacto starter, allow to cool to ambient and sour for 2 days.

- Cool to 58F and then pitch 2L starter of WLP029.

- Ferment at 58 degrees for 5 days, then ramp temp to 68 degrees for 2 more days.

- Then cold crash @ 33 degrees for 2 days prior to kegging, fining with gelatin once beer drops below 50 degrees.

- Add lime and orange juice and zest to keg prior to packaging.

----------------------------

*For whatever reason, even if you enter a 0 minute boil in Brewer's Friend, it still shows a difference between Boil Gravity and OG, so I'll just manually adjust it to:

Original Gravity: 1.048
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 4.73%

**This is a total shot in the dark, but I'm going to start the whirlpool at 180 and then quickly chill to 95 to pitch the lacto, so it should only be in the alpha acid isomerization range (> 170F) for a couple of minutes. I guesstimated something like 2% utilization here as opposed to the normal 5-10% I'd use for a regular hop stand.

I think this is an awesome method for sour beers, please let us know how it turns out! Also where did you see this on Milk the Funk? I'm on there but don't follow too closely.