saison and added sugar

***********1. Enforce rules only against their foes (i.e., anyone who does not suck up to them) while exempting their friends from similar or worse behavior.

2. Silently boot someone and then proceed to trash talk the person as if the person was still there with an opportunity to respond.

3. Boot someone and then start a thread for the sole purpose of boasting about having removed the person, so as to bask in the praise of sychophantic members applauding the moderator's bold action.

4. If a person is being stalked or trolled, scold, warn and threaten both the victim and the perpetrator to stop it. If the victim protests, boot the victim for having defied the moderator's authority. Add injury to insult by allowing the troll or stalker to stay because the stalker or troll didn't talk back to the moderator.

5. If the moderator loses an argument to another member, selectively delete the member's comments so that the thread no longer makes any sense.

6. Selectively enforce the tribe's rules only against newcomers, newbies or people who are not friend with the moderator.

7. Speak about their actions as moderator in the passive voice, use the royal we, and otherwise take on a haughty, authoritarian tone. I mean, dude, you're just a moderator. ***************

Sweet, the word cheating will appear in this thread in 3...2....1.....

Saison is a high alcohol beer...that is why people add the sugar. I made a saison last summer with sugar and regret it. It is just now becoming good to drink. (I wanted it to be ready in October!) Sugar in beer just doesnt do it for me. I would skip the step if I were. Of course that is only one man's opinion.

Cliff897 said:

I
Maybe I'm wrong:
Saison is a light dry crisp relatively low alcohol beer with lots of flavor from the ferment.
Adjuncts such as spices citrus peel etc., are not part of a traditional saison.

Click to expand...

from what I recall, BJCP seems to feel otherwise.

Refined sugars will give a gluey mouthfeel? What?
Refined sugars ferment out entirely, thinning the mouthfeel and reducing the final gravity. This accentuates any dry crispness.

Hmmm

Well this guy says it is a relatively low alcohol beer at 5 - 8%
http://www.beerhunter.com/styles/saison.html
He could be wrong.

But here's why I think he's right:
It's a french country ale. They'd be using wild yeasts.
As a rule wild yeasts tend not to have as high an alcohol tolerance than those that are genetically engineered to be used in brewing which often top out at 10% or higher. There are always exceptions to the "rule"s but I think this holds out.
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/yeast/contamination.php
There are literally thousands and thousands ( maybe billions) of yeast types in the Genus Saccharomyces, which is the umbrella Genus of yeasts that make alcohol. The vast majority of them are not terribly hearty.


"Saccharomyces cerevisiae is referred to as the "true" wine yeast, and it's only on about 1 in 1,000 berries. Its alcohol tolerance enables fermentation up to and beyond 13% alcohol."
http://ezinearticles.com/?Wild-Yeast-In-Winemaking---The-Story-Behind-The-Story&id=948413
That's one grape berry in a thousand that has this hearty yeast.

So I sort of believe in my own non-expert way that a real traditional Saison is a low alcohol beer that is made from the grains that are left over from the long winter. Which, if human nature holds true, won't have been the pick of the crop.


Why I say the sugar will make it gluey:
If the yeast can't get past 5% the extra sugar will be gluey.


Of course, as you've surely deduced, I'm working from a host of preconceptions about what a Saison is.
for example it's traditionally a spring brew meaning the yeasts would be the new yeasts of the spring not the hearty ones that survived into the winter as a Christmas beer might have. ( Mind you, I ain't no yeast molecular biologist).


As it regards what the beer judges think.
I can't help what they think. They have their own issues and priorities.

So back to the original issue:
Why are people adding sugar to what they are calling Saisons?
Are they trying to get a lighter color?
Maybe that's it: lighter color and more alcohol?
After all damn few people today are using wild yeasts.

5-8% isn't a low alcohol beer and the White Labs Saison yeast can probably handle up to 10% or so. Like you said, no one uses wild yeast for these beers anymore so there is no need to worry about the yeast topping out at 5% alcohol. And as to why people are using sugar, like maskednegator said: "Refined sugars ferment out entirely, thinning the mouthfeel and reducing the final gravity. This accentuates any dry crispness."

Well fer sure, it's not the 2% beer they used to have around universities and in the Nam. But I didn't call it a small beer. That's too precise a term for what was a rural products that was probably different every time it was made. I said "relatively low alcohol"
Such wonderful wiggle room. Relative to what?

I've been thinking of doing a Saison.
I think I'll try one with lots of Belgian pilsner, some Munich, some Belgian Aromatics, some wheat and White's WLP565.
Maybe SAZZ, Centennial, and Cascade
I'm sure the French country farmers didn't have a lot of different hops to choose from. But, I like hops.

A traditional saison (back in the day) was a low alcohol beer. A modern saison, especially after us Americans got a hold of it, has become a different creature entirely. You can do it either way, whichever suits you.

I made mine with a pound of sugar and it came out amazing. It's just a hair under 9% abv but doesn't taste over 4%. It's wonderfully crisp and dry and was good just a few weeks after bottling. I used plain old table sugar. The sugar does more than just up the ABV, it lightens the body which is part of the style.

I didn't use any spices in it and it's plenty spicy as it is, just from the goodies the yeast gave me. Citrusy and peppery and nummy.

bknifefight said:

5-8% isn't a low alcohol beer

Click to expand...

It is here in Belgium. Saisons are usually the weakest beer in a breweries lineup over here. After living here for 3 years I consider a saison to be a "light" early in the day kind of beer.

Keith_Mahoney said:

It is here in Belgium. Saisons are usually the weakest beer in a breweries lineup over here. After living here for 3 years I consider a saison to be a "light" early in the day kind of beer.

Click to expand...

You live in Belgium? I'm jealous

To the original question. There is nothing wrong with adding sugar.

Saisons often need some sugar to dry them out enough. I have never ever found a gluey mouthfeel to be the result of sugar additions.

You are correct that sugar will add more alcohol, but that can be fixed by lowering the malt slightly. If you can make an award winning saison without sugar, by all means do it! If you don't care about winning awards then it really doesn't matter what you or anyone else puts in their beer. I'm not being flipant, but outside of competitions style really doesn't matter; taste does.

Cheers,

You are correct that sugar will add more alcohol, but that can be fixed by lowering the malt slightly. If you can make an award winning saison without sugar, by all means do it! If you don't care about winning awards then it really doesn't matter what you or anyone else puts in their beer. I'm not being flipant, but outside of competitions style really doesn't matter; taste does

Click to expand...

This seems to suggest that award-winning saisons must use sugar. I was recently involved in a competition where the gold medal was awarded to a saison whose recipe consisted of 100% pilsener malt, and a saison yeast. I think it also won Best of Show, but don't hold me to that.

HoppyDaze said:

Saison is a high alcohol beer...that is why people add the sugar. I made a saison last summer with sugar and regret it. It is just now becoming good to drink. (I wanted it to be ready in October!) Sugar in beer just doesnt do it for me. I would skip the step if I were. Of course that is only one man's opinion.

Click to expand...

Traditionally, no, its not. Traditionally, Saison is a session beer.


Its only the last couple of years that we've bastardized this style.

I have read somewhere that Saison was the "Gatorade" of the French peasant. Low alcohol and very dry and refreshing.

weirdboy said:

This seems to suggest that award-winning saisons must use sugar. I was recently involved in a competition where the gold medal was awarded to a saison whose recipe consisted of 100% pilsener malt, and a saison yeast. I think it also won Best of Show, but don't hold me to that.

Click to expand...

This wasn't what I meant to suggest at all. I meant that other adjuncts as described in the OP could be added - but not for competition. Sugar very much the same. It doesn't matter. I personally use it in my Saison to get the right attenuation, but if you don't need to then of course there is no need - Saisons don't need sugar, but they do need to be dry.

HoppyDaze said:

Saison is a high alcohol beer..

Click to expand...

Wrong

ChshreCat said:

A traditional saison (back in the day) was a low alcohol beer. A modern saison, especially after us Americans got a hold of it, has become a different creature entirely.
.

Click to expand...

Correct

Keith_Mahoney said:

It is here in Belgium. Saisons are usually the weakest beer in a breweries lineup over here. After living here for 3 years I consider a saison to be a "light" early in the day kind of beer.

Click to expand...

Bingo, its a light beer.

I don't use sugar in my saisons and tend to get FG around 1.002-4.
Its all about the yeast:rockin:

Luckily, I haven't ever had to add cane sugar to dry mine out. I always add 8oz of wildflower honey at flameout and it gets very dry.

weirdboy said:

This seems to suggest that award-winning saisons must use sugar. I was recently involved in a competition where the gold medal was awarded to a saison whose recipe consisted of 100% pilsener malt, and a saison yeast. I think it also won Best of Show, but don't hold me to that.

Click to expand...

You didn't happen to get the particulars on that brew did you?
you know: Hops & when added, yeast version & maker, how many pounds of malt to how many gallons product.

Houblon said:

Wrong

Click to expand...

You sir are wrong...

HoppyDaze said:

You sir are wrong...

Click to expand...

Really? tell us the history of saisons and tell me just when they became high alcohol beer.

pages 95 thur 127 of Farmhouse Ales. (Yvan De Baets)
1900 - > average sg1.040 - 1.050, prior to 1900 average sg1.025 -1.036
Alcohol level was around 3-4.5%
<Modern age>
A saison must therefore be low in alcohol around 4.5 to 6.5%

Cliff897 said:

You didn't happen to get the particulars on that brew did you?
you know: Hops & when added, yeast version & maker, how many pounds of malt to how many gallons product.

Click to expand...

Nope, I didn't. I really tried, too...but the guy who won wasn't actually there.

Hey guys,



I mean this in a nice way, but there is no purpose in debating codified beer styles! It bothers me when people ask &#8220;is it ok to put &#8220;ingredient X&#8221; in my &#8220;style X&#8221; solely because they get well intentioned but often misleading info. The question we should respond with is; &#8220;is this for competition, or just for you?&#8221; If it&#8217;s competition, the person asking should go to www.bjcp.org and they should try to brew a beer that will fall within those guidelines. If it&#8217;s just for the hell of it then they should do whatever you want, and rephrase your OP around how it may taste or what the result may be.


A commercial Saison is any beer that says &#8220;Saison&#8221; on it. There&#8217;s no law, appellation, or agreed upon ingredient list for commercial breweries to follow. Styles codified by the BJCP simply represent characteristics of a group of beers (some old like Saison, some new like American Wheat) that fall into a category as named by the BJCP.



It just seems fruitless to debate &#8220;styles&#8221; without context. www.bjcp.org has already taken the guess work out. Otherwise it&#8217;s a question of flavour and process.

Read Farmhouse Ales. Then you will know what you need to know.

Houblon said:

Really? tell us the history of saisons and tell me just when they became high alcohol beer.

pages 95 thur 127 of Farmhouse Ales. (Yvan De Baets)
1900 - > average sg1.040 - 1.050, prior to 1900 average sg1.025 -1.036
Alcohol level was around 3-4.5%
<Modern age>
A saison must therefore be low in alcohol around 4.5 to 6.5%

Click to expand...

too easy...some people just have to prove themselves.

viva la Saison!

WorryWort said:

there is no purpose in debating codified beer styles!

Click to expand...

Whadayamean~? >hic<

It bothers me when people ask &#8220;is it ok to put &#8220;ingredient X&#8221; in my &#8220;style X&#8221; solely because they get well intentioned but often misleading info. The question we should respond with is; &#8220;is this for competition, or just for you?&#8221;

Click to expand...

I agree that it's a valid question an one that might facilitate a more clear answer but, what's it matter if it's for the poster?
Maybe he or she is interested in propagating a dialog from the assembly on what they think the attributes of such a brew ought to be and how to achieve 'em. While it's true that there's a world of worthless mis-information to be had for free and its often worth what you paid for it - - it's also true that if you can put it to good use, then it was worth the value of that use.

If it&#8217;s just for the hell of it then they should do whatever you want, and rephrase your OP around how it may taste or what the result may be.

Click to expand...

Maybe. I think the query reflect some level of respect for the gathered assembly. It's a version of: "Hey, whaChoo doods tink?"

A commercial Saison is any beer that says &#8220;Saison&#8221; on it.

Click to expand...

Sadly this is true.

There&#8217;s no law, appellation, or agreed upon ingredient list for commercial breweries to follow.

Click to expand...

Yah, but if no one ever asked: "Hey, whaChoo doods tink?" then none of the appellations and formal standards would ever have come to pass.

Somebody has to be the one to go all out there and bravely expose him (or her) self to the wild winds of other opinions and ask: "Hey, whaChoo doods tink?"

It just seems fruitless to debate &#8220;styles&#8221; without context.

Click to expand...

such context can arise spontaneously during the dialog.

Well, think of it this way:
If the minds assembled engage in a dialog and together they produce some adequate quantum of ideas and maybe even >gasp< historical or other external perspective then the OP might go away with a happy heart effervescent with the sure knowledge that he (or she) had learned something of use.

The exact externalized value of which might never be subject to challenge because the happy dood will be consuming his ( or her) own product - happily.

Don't knock the aimless and often meandering application of: "Hey, whaChoo doods tink?"

And besides I'll feel very well about it all if I can pour my peers a brew and announce: "It's a Traditional Saison." in the sure knowledge that among my erstwhile brewing peers elsewhere, it might possibly be.

commonlaw said:

Read Farmhouse Ales. Then you will know what you need to know.

Click to expand...

SEE???!!?!?!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Thas wad I'm tak'in 'bout WoryWort~!!
It just popped in the middo o' dis heauh tred ::: a book recomendation ~!!
And golly durn it I just may get me a copy.

Ooohh you can preview the TOC on Amazon and it talks about traditional ingredients

tnx commonlaw.

Just ordered a copy

Sugar is a common ingredient in saisons. This is silly.

saisons are supposed to be dry. use use sugar to dry it out.

eppo said:

saisons are supposed to be dry. use use sugar to dry it out.

Click to expand...

The thing is, unless you're screwing up, you don't need sugar to dry out a saison. Saison yeasts are absolute monsters as far as attenuation goes.

I've got a 7% saison that started out at 1.052. The yeast brought it all the way down to .999 (wyeast 3711 - French saison)

Saison yeasts are known for chowing down to 1.020 and staying there for a looooooooooong time. Adding sugar will help to avoid that.

Synovia said:

The thing is, unless you're screwing up, you don't need sugar to dry out a saison. Saison yeasts are absolute monsters as far as attenuation goes.

I've got a 7% saison that started out at 1.052. The yeast brought it all the way down to .999 (wyeast 3711 - French saison)

Click to expand...

That is such an incorrect statement. "Unless you're screwing up" is just plain wrong. I'm glad you got to .999 and all, but to me THAT is screwing up. I mean at that point you have no body left and you're drinking watery alcohol.

Sugar has been and will be used in saisons. Yes, certain strains of yeast are highly attenuative and all, but with any style you should be looking to achieve balance. Sometimes a recipe just needs some dryness without any additional benefit from malt. It is all about the body you want to achieve, and sometimes malt isn't the perfect digestible because it leaves other things behind.

The Belgians have been using sugar pretty much forever in brewing, and they're pretty well regarded as knowing what they're doing. This debate is just ridiculous.

Synovia said:

The thing is, unless you're screwing up, you don't need sugar to dry out a saison. Saison yeasts are absolute monsters as far as attenuation goes.

I've got a 7% saison that started out at 1.052. The yeast brought it all the way down to .999 (wyeast 3711 - French saison)

Click to expand...

Doubtful final reading and saison yeasts are well known for peetering out toward the end of fermentation.

smiths9312 said:

Doubtful final reading and saison yeasts are well known for peetering out toward the end of fermentation.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately I don't doubt a .999. I f'ed up a saison this summer that is at .997. Of course, it tasted like pure phenols and only after 10 months is it even drinkable (it is still sitting in the conical in my garage), but it can happen.

It was an odd blend of yeast strains, though and I think it became a fight to the death in there.

Houblon said:

Really? tell us the history of saisons and tell me just when they became high alcohol beer.

pages 95 thur 127 of Farmhouse Ales. (Yvan De Baets)
1900 - > average sg1.040 - 1.050, prior to 1900 average sg1.025 -1.036
Alcohol level was around 3-4.5%
<Modern age>
A saison must therefore be low in alcohol around 4.5 to 6.5%

Click to expand...

You can make a case that traditionally saisons were low gravity beers, but currently that is untrue in the US. If you enter a beer in a BJCP competition, the standard you will be held against will be a Dupont or a Hennepin. Saison Dupont ranks in at 5.5% and Hennepin goes in at 7.7%.

smiths9312 said:

Doubtful final reading and saison yeasts are well known for peetering out toward the end of fermentation.

Click to expand...

Ever used Wyeast 3711? It's a monster. It took my 1.050'ish Saison down to 1.002. No sugar in that batch, either.

EvilGnome6 said:

Ever used Wyeast 3711? It's a monster. It took my 1.050'ish Saison down to 1.002. No sugar in that batch, either.

Click to expand...

+1 on Wyeast 3711. I love that yeast. Total trooper.

smiths9312 said:

You can make a case that traditionally saisons were low gravity beers, but currently that is untrue in the US. If you enter a beer in a BJCP competition, the standard you will be held against will be a Dupont or a Hennepin. Saison Dupont ranks in at 5.5% and Hennepin goes in at 7.7%.

Click to expand...

I was making the case that sasions are not a HIGH alcohol beer.

HoppyDaze said:

Saison is a high alcohol beer

Click to expand...

as compared to the normal Belgian beer line:

Keith_Mahoney said:

It is here in Belgium. Saisons are usually the weakest beer in a breweries lineup over here. After living here for 3 years I consider a saison to be a "light" early in the day kind of beer.

Click to expand...

I stand by what was posted.


Now when you start talking about the "super sasions" --> Fantôme,ect than yes they are high alc.beers. But when I think of high alc. its a beer of 9-12%