Extract Late Brewing

Hi everyone. So I am an extract brewer balking at the current high hop prices and was thinking of going to an extract late brewing method as described here. Looks like there are other benifits, too! So for those of you with experience using the method, here are my two questions:

1) Does anyone have any experience doing this and can anyone give more specifics on the process? Such as how to decide how much extract to add at the beginning of the boil and how much at the end?

2) How will this affect my Hop utilization in terms of the amount of hops I use? From what I've seen in these forums people are just saying use about 20% less, which may work some but this number must be dependent on how big your boil is (mine is small due to my s*%tty electric stove) and how much extract you add at the beginning of the boil (I would like to add as little as possible, due to the aforementioned small boil). Basically I am anxious to be able to use some of my old recipes with this method and be confident that I am not going to miss my bittering.

I can't wait to graduate so I have the space, time, and budget for an AG setup.

I pretty much always do a late addition, mainly to lighten the color. For example, in a recipe that uses 6 lbs. of DME, I'll add 1 lb. at the beginning of the boil, then the remaining 5 lbs. in the last 5-10 minutes. If you use DME you don't have to remove your pot from the the heat, whereas LME sinks right to the bottom so you do have to remove from heat until it's dissolved to avoid scorching. Either way you need to stir like crazy to dissolve the extract asap and keep an eye on it to avoid boil over.

As far as hop utilization is concerned, I'm not really sure how it's affected by a late addition. I've heard some say it is improved and I've heard others say the opposite. All I know is that you really need some extract in the boil for proper utilization.

The bottom line: If your trying to make an amber ale and you don't want it to look like a porter, a late addition is the only way to go.

I've been doing late additions before I knew it was a "method".

Check Papazian's TCJOHB Hop Utilization Chart. It recommends 1 oz of hops in 1 gal of water with 1 lb of DME equals 1.040 (BYO says DME is 1.045).

I boil 1.5 gals when using DME only. The extra water is for evaporation.

When I use steeping grains I'll steep in 1 gal and sparge with 1 gal. I'll also up the grain/DME equivilant to 2 lbs.

I boil for 45 mins and remove the pot from the heat then add the remaining DME to steep for 15 mins to pasteurize.

I top off with PUR filtered tap water that's been in the freezer for 4-5 hours.

The temp is usually in the low 60s for 1 gal and about 68-72 for 2 gal boils.

Here's a pic of all DME LA brewing...

Wow, thanks for the help guys. You have done a good job of answering my first question. I am still looking for some answers to question number two... anybody out there?

Boiling the hops with less extract (i.e. a lower gravity boil) will increase utilization. How much depends on how much of the extract you save for the end. I haven't found a quick and easy way to do it, but you can use hops utilization charts/calculators to adjust the amount of hops to keep your IBU the same.

So, if your recipe calls for all the extract in a 2 gallon boil, you'd look up the utilization for those parameters (gravity, boil size, boil time, hop amounts). Then, you'd figure your new boil gravity with only part of the extract (say 2 lbs in a 2 gallon boil). Using that gravity, boil size, boil time, and previously calculated utilization, you should be able to figure out the correct amount of hops. Unless somebody knows of one, I'm planning on writing a calculator app that makes this into more of a one step process or maybe suggest it as a feature in BeerSmith, but it's really not too difficult given a utilization calculator (or even just a chart).

One potential pitfall: if you add the remainder of your extract with 15 minutes left in the boil, the hop utilization will be lower for that time. It would make calculations a little easier to add the late extract at the end of the boil.

I've since gone AG...but I tried a few late extract additions....It seems that these brews are all extremely bitter....as I did not adjust hop additions.

Beersmith will tell you what the difference in hops utilization will be if you do a late addition of some portion of extract.

BigKahuna said:

I've since gone AG...but I tried a few late extract additions....It seems that these brews are all extremely bitter....as I did not adjust hop additions.

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BK: As you already know, I do 1.5-2 gal boils, but rarely do I ever use more than 3AAs for bittering HWs and 4AAs for normal batches...ending with 6 lbs of DME. I'm obvisouly not a hop head.

To increase my bitterness on Lawnmower type light ales I just decrease my overall DME to 4.5 lbs.

Right now I have a light one going where I used 3 different hops and added some at the end for a 5 min steep. I'll keep you informed on that one.

Rick500 said:

Beersmith will tell you what the difference in hops utilization will be if you do a late addition of some portion of extract.

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Can you explain how? I was messing with this last night and couldn't figure out how to do this. Is there a special tool/function or should it just happen once you check "Late extract addition" (I think that's what it says) in the ingredient properties?

Add your extract as two separate portions, double-click on one, and click the "Late extract for [x] minutes", and fill in the minutes.

It will automatically update your IBUs.

You kind of have to play around with the amount of early and late extract, and the minutes setting, to see what it does to the IBUs.

Huh...so it does. Not sure how I missed that because I did have the extract divided and the box checked for one portion - guess I forgot to compare. Very handy. Thanks.

It would still be nice (regarding the OP's request especially) to have the IBUs held at the first value and adjust the hop amounts to compensate. Oh well, I'll just have to play with them.

Got it. So I have basically three options: either wing it, get Beersmith, or go to war with an excel spreadsheet and try to get this all straight. Although it would a frivolous expenditure I probably should get beersmith anyways to help me formulate recipes (although at 8 batches into by brewing career I am still in the "try things out" more than the "make things perfect" stage). And although I do love excel -- and honestly I do, I haven't gotten over the kick of the first time I set it up and it instantly just did a whole bunch of annoying arithmetic for me -- I am not sure when I will have time to go after that particular question. But it will not escape.

In the meantime, I have a buddy w/ some 3 gallon carboys, maybe I will do two 3-gal batches using whatever method I decide satisfies my particular brand of brew-vanity to calculate my hop additions and compare the results. If I do I will post.

Note: Two hands and two beers is double-fisting. Two hands, two beers, a piece of paper and a pencil is the art and science of brewing. Isn't life amazing?

A little follow-up for those looking for info on extract late techniques -- I've been using beersmith to make my hope calculations and doing my late addition (typically 1/2 to 3/4 of the total extract) after 45 min of the boil, then waiting until the boil returns, and then letting it go 15 min to sterilize.

My friends and I have observed (and enjoyed!) clear improvements to the flavor of my beers. If you are a new brewer and want to improve your products, extract late is the single easiest thing you can do, AND IT'S FREE BECAUSE YOU NEED NO EXTRA EQUIPMENT. And it works.

I use BeerAlchemy on a Mac and while I haven't tried the late addition method yet, I typed it in my program and it calculates the rise in IBUs. Pretty cool.

Good to know there is other software out there too. Extract late is great both for styles that require lots of hop bitterness, and for styles built around less powerful flavors, which can shine through in the absence of evil wort caramelization.

I did this the other day, but didn't add any extract at all until the end. I steeped about a pound and a half of grains then boiled an ounce of Centennial for 45 min, then an ounce for 15 min. and finally half an ounce at 1 min.

Just by tasting the wort it was bitter as hell. I should have done some better calculations first.

I did a chocolate porter yesterday.

Added 3# of Amber malt at the beginning of the boil, and 3# about 30 minutes in.
We'll see how that turns out.

Yeah it's a good idea having an idea of what your ibu targets are and doing some calculations ahead of time.

Some recipes say the ibu in the info at the top or someplace else in it. If you are wanting to replicate a recipe that doesn't list its ibu, you can always plug the recipe into the recipator, that should give you an ibu rating. If you are just making your own recipe up, a place to start for an ibu target would be either the bjcp or brewers association style guidelines.

If you make your late extract addition in the last 5 or 10 minutes of the boil, you are pretty safe calculating your hop amounts for your target ibu as if the extract addition just weren't there. I.E. if you are doing a 5 gallon batch 2 gallon boil and the recipe calls for 6 pounds of DME and you want to add half your DME at the end, go to the recipator and build a recipe for a 5 gallon batch with a 2 gallon boil and 3 pounds of DME and adjust the hop amounts until it gives you an ibu close to your target. The loss in bitterness from the last five or ten minutes of the boil will be very small, typically just few ibu.

I made a Rogue Brewing, "Brutal Bitter" clone last night. It went like this;

1.5 lbs of steeping grains
2 lbs of DME at beginning of boil
2 oz of pellet hops at 75 min
1 oz of pellet hops at 60 min
1 oz of pellet hops at 40 min
6 lbs of DME at flame out
1 oz of leaf hops at flame out
and it calls for another 1 oz of leaf hops for dry-hoping

i tasted the wort and it is EXTREMELY bitter. I can't wait to taste the final product, especially after dry-hoping.

So let me preface this by saying I'm not a hop-head .. although I will not turn down a good IPA.

I'm getting the hang of beersmith and if its only 80-90% correct on IBUs I'll be happy.

By properly inputting ingredients and clicking options - here's the IBU difference in a English Southern Ale I'm brewing tomorrow.

-Add all extract up front IBUs - 13.5

-Split the extract start / finish IBUs - 19.6

And I think the issue here is being accurate on the split using LME ... thats just gotta be a mess. I guess I'm a front loader on extracts.

Also, I'm not looking for BeerSmith to help me brew perfect beers (I'm too lazy and not OCD) but to help me understand recipes / ingredients before I buy supplies and brew.

Makes sense. I use extract late mostly to avoid caramelization, I am also not a hop head. You are correct that using LME makes getting the split accurate -- that's why I use DME (I can also be more assured of DME's freshness). DME comes in 1 and 3 lb bags, so for small batches it's not hard to adjust the early and late additions until you have an IBU you want.

Wow, is this timely. I was going to post a similar thread till I found this one.

anyway, I have an upcoming event that I have a brown ale and an Octoberfest style lagar in the lineup. And so wanting to brew something a little lighter for those wanting that, I visited the LHBS yesterday. He talked me into an all DME brew using dry wheat extract to brew up a wheat style beer. It calls for 4 different hops additions.

Plugging the numbers into beer smith I adjusted the 60 minute hops addition to fit the IBU's for this style. But the color is still a little high for the style. recipe calls for 5.25 pounds of the DME, and I split it at 1# at the beginning and the remainder at 10 minutes on a 60 minute boil. I have tried different versions, but it still remains slightly high. (by high I mean the style calls for 3.0-6.0 and the closest I can get is 6.4)

I have adjusted the boil time and completely cut out the first malt addition to add the entire amount at the last 10 just to see what it would do. Either way, I'm still outside of the spec for color.

I love this feature of beersmith though, since I too am NOT a hophead I can adjust to remain inside the spec for the style but be on the lower end of that spec.

You should probably add at least 1 pound of extract at the beginning of your boil, I read that it was important someplace but I can't remember where or why. If the recipe is darker than you want, you probably need to use less malt extract. You could maybe replace some with an adjunct like dextrose.

Maybe if you post the recipe we could help you adjust it to get something closer to what you are looking for.

Here is the recipe that I put together in Beersmith. It is an all DME recipe with 5.25 pounds total, I split it into a 1 lb addition at the beginning and the rest at 10 minutes.

I played around with the amounts and by dropping the last malt addition to 3.75 lbs I come within the color spec, but my OG drops to the bottom end of the gravity spec. I guess if you have to give somewhere I would rather give on color than gravity.

Turtle Wheat
American Wheat or Rye Beer

Type: Extract
Date: 12/12/2008
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Calvin Richards
Boil Size: 2.43 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (3 Gallon)

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4 lbs 4.0 oz Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 80.95 %
1 lbs Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 19.05 %
0.75 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 8.3 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.1 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (3 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (3 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.53 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 20.9 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 6.4 SRM Color:

I'm paranoid about scorching LME, so I add at flameout. However, I start cooling immediately. Waiting 20 minutes drives off too much of the aroma oils.

Yup you are correct - if you are using all Wheat DME and you want to have a lighter color, you will need to cut your gravity.

I wouldn't put too much stake in the style guidelines if you are not going to a competition. Being slightly below on your gravity is fine, especially if you are at the low end of the bitterness. You are making beer for your friends, and if they want something on the lighter end I'd brew it for 'em and to hell with the guidelines. Same goes for color.

You do have a couple of options, however, that might keep you in the gravity range while lightening your color:

One would be to use some dextrose (corn sugar). If you cut your late extact addition to 3 lbs and add 1.5 lbs of corn sugar your gravity will but higher, your color will be lower, and the beer will taste a bit lighter. I have never used it though and some people don't like the taste when you use a lot of it (with the recipe changes I have suggested you would be at 27% of your fermentables). The Complete Joy of Home Brewing has some information on its use. Adding some Malto-dextrine (maybe 1/4 lb) would put some body back on the beer and increase head retention without increaseing color or gravity.

Another idea would be to do a partial mash. Here is a great thread on an easy method -- I've tried it this way and it's super easy. I did the mash in a 12 qt enameled steel stock pot I got for cheap at target or someplace, It should be able to mash up to about 4.5 lbs of grain. A partial mash would let you use lighter-colored pislner malts for a lot of your sugars. The wheat DME is usually about 40% wheat, so for a wheat beer I usually do about half of the mash wheat. An example would be remove all the extract except for 2 lbs (add at the end of the boil) and mash 2.5 lbs pilsner malt and 2.25 wheat malt. You will need to do at least a 3 gallon boil for this just because that's how much water you will have after you sparge. You might also want to increase your first hop addition to 1.5, you will have some more sugars in your boil.

A final money- and time-saving tip: Wyeast 1056 is great yeast. US-05 is the same strain in dried form -- 1/3 the cost, no waiting for the smack pack to inflate, stays fresh in your fridge longer, and rehydration is optional (it works if you just sprinkle the yeast on your cooled wort).

goplayoutside said:

You should probably add at least 1 pound of extract at the beginning of your boil, I read that it was important someplace but I can't remember where or why. If the recipe is darker than you want, you probably need to use less malt extract. You could maybe replace some with an adjunct like dextrose.

Maybe if you post the recipe we could help you adjust it to get something closer to what you are looking for.

Click to expand...

I add 1 lb of DME or grain equivilent to the 1 -1.5 gal because Papazian's chart states a 1:1 ratio yields about 1.040,

I didn't vote since it really depends on what I am trying to get out of the batch.

Usually, I add all my extract about 5 minutes before flameout (I partial mash and partial boil, so there are plenty of sugars in the wort for the hops to interact with), but sometimes, I will add all my extract at the beginning of the boil.

Brewing isn't all that dissimilar to cooking - if you follow a recipe letter by letter, you'll probably get great food, but if you tweak it here and there to accommodate your equipment, process and individual taste, you get great food that reflects *your* personality. And that's so much more fun.

ArcaneXor said:

Brewing isn't all that dissimilar to cooking - if you follow a recipe letter by letter, you'll probably get great food, but if you tweak it here and there to accommodate your equipment, process and individual taste, you get great food that reflects *your* personality. And that's so much more fun.

Click to expand...

+1! Caramelization is actually desirable in certain styles!

goplayoutside said:

... One would be to use some dextrose (corn sugar). If you cut your late extact addition to 3 lbs and add 1.5 lbs of corn sugar your gravity will but higher, your color will be lower, and the beer will taste a bit lighter. I have never used it though and some people don't like the taste when you use a lot of it (with the recipe changes I have suggested you would be at 27% of your fermentables). The Complete Joy of Home Brewing has some information on its use...

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So I saw my TCJHB on the shelf the other day and opened it up-- Papazian recommends not using over 20% corn sugar. By that rule 1 lb would be better than 1.5 lb. I would just not use it though and go with your original extract recipe unless you want to mash -- you are dealing w/ one of the limitations of extract brewing.

Thanks for all the info. I love this sit!

I got a bug last night about 10:00 PM and decided it was time to brew, come hell or high water.

since I didn't have any corn sugar, I went ahead with plan A: 1 lb at boil with the balance with 10 minutes left. Everything seemed to go great. It did come out a little darker than I would like for this style, but much lighter than previous extract brews I have made. I will try the partial mash next go-around and see what that does. Can't wait to see and taste when it is finished. OG was spot on at 1.046.

on a side note, it was 19 below zero here last night so I took a large SS bowl filled with water, covered it and set it outside at the beginning of boil. Used Iced out of my ice maker and this water to bring temp down. Pitched 20 minutes after flameout :rockin:

Congrats on the brew -- let us know how it's tasting when it's ready (I am always looking for good recipes).

Ceedubya said:

on a side note, it was 19 below zero here last night so I took a large SS bowl filled with water, covered it and set it outside at the beginning of boil. Used Iced out of my ice maker and this water to bring temp down. Pitched 20 minutes after flameout :rockin:

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Sweet! I am living west of the divide now, and used to live in upstate New York, so I am a huge fan of the "exposure chiller." Our method was a bit cruder, however-- we'd just stick the brewpot in a snowbank and go back inside and drink a beer. Maybe stir it every five minutes or so. Works like a charm.

wow, i didn't know you could do this. I'm always a little bit weirded out by how much darker my beers look than I think they should. But are there downsides? What do I stand to lose by doing a late addition?

i have been reading up on this technique my question is if you do a good partial mash do you even need to add part of your dme or lme at the beginning of your boil like a 2 kg -4 partial mash

traefann said:

i have been reading up on this technique my question is if you do a good partial mash do you even need to add part of your dme or lme at the beginning of your boil like a 2 kg -4 partial mash

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No. You don't need to add extract in the boil. Extract has already been processed and doesn't need to boil for 60 minutes.