Backsweeten or cold crash for semi-sweet?

A question for the experienced cider makers:

Fourth batch, first time kegging (and pressing my own fruit). I've always just let it ferment out to dry, condition in secondary (for 3+ months), then bottle. This time I'm going for semi-sweet, and I'm considering either 1) fermenting out & conditioning as usual, cold crashing, then backsweetening in the keg with frozen apple concentrate, or 2) cold crashing to halt fermentation somewhere in the range of SG 1.005 to 1.010, then kegging.

It seems like most people backsweeten, but some claim that crashing at the desired SG results in superior flavor. I'm using a mix of pretty tasty sweet/sharp/bitter apples from around the neighborhood, so it seems like preserving some of the flavor of these apples might be a nice thing. I have temp control, so I can take my time to get to the right SG.

On the other hand, I can see a benefit to drying it out and conditioning for a month or two before crashing/kegging. (I plan to bottle some of it dry to set aside in either case.) Plus, my OG was only 1.045, and fermenting it all the way out would give me the higher ABV -- not that this takes precedence over flavor, but it's still a consideration. I'm using Wyeast Cider (4766), and have no idea what sort of attenuation to expect. (Any useful info about this yeast, including the source, would be much appreciated!)

Just hoping to gain some wisdom from adherents to either method. I'd try both, but I only have 1 corny keg...

(A lot of people claim an adverse effect of stabilizers on flavor, and I'm ok with fermentation kicking back up a bit as long as it's slow, so without a compelling reason to use them I'd rather avoid them.)

Thanks!

"These guys look like superheroes... I can't believe I'm the same species as these guys!" -U.S. Olympic swimming trials commentator, just now

There are advocates of both methods here.

Personally, I like my ciders to age in secondary for a few months. I ferment primary to about 1.008, rack to secondary and let it go dry and let it sit. This is where I get to add some oak or other tannin too. When it's ready for kegging I'll sweeten with FAJC to where I want it.

If you keep it cold you don't need any stabilizer chemicals and it'll be OK for a month or so. I use k-meta / sorbate to the recommended levels because I often bottle from the keg. Never had any taste associated with that.

Someone else will probably chime in about cold crashing an active ferment, force filtering to remove the yeast, etc but I'm not set up to do that.

I'm leaning towards the same approach, and would have automatically done this until I started poking around the forums and saw that some prefer to crash the active ferment.

My thinking originally was that if the yeast are just eating sugar, then it should be a simple matter of restoring the sugar level after the fact.

However, it sounds like they're claiming that by letting the yeast go, you will lose part of the "apple-y goodness" that can't be easily recovered. All I can come up with is that along with sugar, the process of fermentation itself is driving off the aroma, or somehow transforming other compounds in the juice. This could explain why FAJC is so popular for backsweetening, since it will restore some of that goodness that is lost.

Alternatively, I guess it could be argued that a period of conditioning will allow the yeast to "clean up" fermentation byproducts that would otherwise give off flavors. I'm not experienced enough to know if this is as true for cider as it is for beer. Also, I'm not talking about "aging", which I have observed in my bottled ciders over the course of a year or so, but which I understand to be a separate process.

I'm just trying to broaden my understanding a bit as to what really makes a great cider. I'm sure much of it comes down to personal preference, which is why I plan to try both approaches eventually, but hopefully others will chime in.

While I'm here, I might as well ask a semi-related question:

I have 5 gallons in primary right now. Assuming I transfer to another vessel for secondary, I'm expecting this amount to be less than 5 gallons, due to the lees settling out. My smallest secondary vessel is a 5-gal. carboy, which leads to the problem of excess headspace and oxidation.

Should I:
1) Just leave it in primary until it's done? It's in a pretty big bucket, and I'm worried that the repeated opening of the lid to check SG will introduce oxygen that eventually will not be purged by CO2 coming from fermentation, and I'm left with the same problem. (The whole "blanket of CO2" sounds pretty dubious to me.)
2) Just transfer it to the 5-gal. carboy before it's completely fermented out, and hope that the last push of CO2 from ferm clears the headspace, then just don't touch it until it's done?
3) Transfer to the 5-gal. carboy and top up with store-bought juice? This doesn't sound too terrible.

I'd really prefer to keep it in one vessel due to space constraints, and I've heard various things about using marbles, balloons, etc. to try and reduce the headspace, which frankly sounds like a huge PITA. So the above solutions sound feasible to me, unless anyone else out there has a better idea. Thanks!

There are many who top up their fermenter with store-bought apple juice. The percentage of store-bought will be so small in that 5 gallon jug, I don't believe you or anyone else could taste the difference.

I typically lose about 20-25% when racking to secondary, depending on how much lees there is. For a 5 gallon batch that means 4 gallon yield. I have a 3 gallon and some 1 gallon jugs to accommodate that, so no top up is necessary.

But if all you have is a 5 gal carboy then yes, top off with juice. Fermentation will pick up a bit from the extra sugar and you'll get more lees in the secondary but that's better than leaving head space.

Gelatin, cold, sorbate and sulfite are all your best friends. Injure the yeast and keep them cold, and then you can do what you like as far as backsweetening or even halting fermentation early around 1.010 so that you don't need to backsweeten at all. Force carbonation helps if you want carb, but if you don't care about carbonation, that's a lot easier.

P.S. If I could edit my comment above, I would, but it doesn't let me on this ancient browser.

Just wanted to add that personally I don't use any chemicals besides gelatin (if that even counts). I skip the sorbate and sulfite. But this requires patience and a lot of racking to tertiary, quaternary, just to keep the yeast the heck out of there.

Thanks for all the good info. I'm picking up that either approach "works" as long as it's done correctly. Personally, my intuition tells me that letting the yeast do their thing will give me what I'm after, so I'll keep it in primary around 60 F for a while, then rack to secondary & let it finish there, then crash & backsweeten with FAJC. I've previously underestimated the effects of oxidation and won't be making that mistake again.

I ferment until it slows in a 6 gal. then rack into a 5 gal. with very little headspace. Then let it it age 3-6 mos. After stabilizing I add juice (Apple or other) for more flavor and sugar then keg to carb.

Just a couple of quick thread-related questions:

- What kind of primary time should I expect (assuming I rack at 1.008 or so)? I'm steady at 60 F, 7 days now but curious how long others spend in primary and at what temps.
- I'll try and get some fresh-pressed juice, or failing that, bottled/pasteurized, to top off the carboy after racking to secondary. If the top-off juice is unpasteurized (and around a gallon or so, added to 4 gallons of fermented), should I treat it with campden, pasteurize it myself (with pectinase?), or just add it as is?

Thanks y'all! Go Lilly King!

Letting it ferment 100% will give you a more "champagne-y" result that you can back sweeten as you like.

I MUCH prefer to crash cool at 1.020 - 1.010 depending how sweet you like it, knowing it will continue to drop while it crashes, even to 1.000 if you age it cold for a while.

That's the only way I've been able to get what I would call a "cider" flavor instead of an "apfelwein" flavor.

Primary may take 2-3 weeks at 60 F, plus or minus a few days.

You shouldn't need to treat the top-off juice. Personally I might heat to 170 F for 15 minutes to pasteurize maybe but it's optional. Don't boil it. No need for pectinase.

Magnus314 said:

Letting it ferment 100% will give you a more "champagne-y" result that you can back sweeten as you like.

I MUCH prefer to crash cool at 1.020 - 1.010 depending how sweet you like it, knowing it will continue to drop while it crashes, even to 1.000 if you age it cold for a while.

That's the only way I've been able to get what I would call a "cider" flavor instead of an "apfelwein" flavor.

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Thanks, this is the exact info I was after. I've never had apfelwein, but the "champagney" descriptor is helpful.

If cold crashing early, does it generally require, or at least benefit from, aging cold? I read on one of the stickies that there can be a lot of sourness that will eventually go away, but that it also depends on certain variables, e.g. whether the juice was pasteurized or otherwise treated before primary. I haven't tasted or taken a gravity reading yet, since it's only been in primary 9 days & still a bit foamy, but is there a way to tell by taste at this point whether it's "ready" for cold crashing?

So I read a good chunk of that monstrous sticky (props to CvilleKevin for putting so much info out there!) and checked the gravity -- 1.020 (3.3% ABV), and actually tastes pretty nice, if a little sweet. I'm now leaning towards racking & crashing around 1.010-1.015, then either kegging it right then, or moving it to secondary for a bit (re-racking & re-crashing as necessary), after giving it the taste test.

I decided that this actually seems easier, faster, and hopefully even tastier, than letting it go all the way and backsweetening with something that possibly won't taste quite as good as what was in these apples to begin with. My qualms about the alcohol level aren't quite as big, since I'll still get upward of 4.6%, which is fine for me.

Will probably let a growler or two ferment out 100% just to see what happens. Might also try bulk aging & backsweetening at least part of the next batch too, since I'm still curious how that compares.

Yes, big props to CvilleKevin for the great sticky. Due to the fact I don't have kegging gear, and I do not like my cider bone dry, my only viable option is bottle pasteurizing. Please keep us posted on how your current batch is coming along. IMHO, a slight amount of sweetness at bottling after 6 months doesn't really taste "sweet", but it does help accentuate the apple flavor, and I get a nice apple-y coating on my tongue that lasts for a few minutes.

Well, it's been an interesting month. I managed to rack this cider just in time, and life caught up with me in a big way, but my preparation also paid off in a big way. Long story short, I put a 3-gallon carboy and 2 64-oz growlers away in the fridge, filled up to the top, and there they stayed for exactly six weeks. SG 1.020. After six weeks, racked off very small sediment layer into keg, SG 1.011 (ABV 4.47). Force carbed @ 30 psi for 5 days, drinking it now. Pretty much exactly what I was going for: just enough sweetness to be able to call it "semi-sweet" (i.e. not dry), pleasant tartness, and gigantic apple flavor. Actually tastes like cider, very much unlike the "champagne-y" strong but dried-out version I was hoping to avoid. I'm extremely pleased with it.

I did also put a 1-gallon carboy (filled to the top) in the back of the closet to ferment out completely. Will probably bottle that eventually, and age it until next fall.

The only real detriment, if you want to call it that, to the semi-sweet version is that it didn't really clear. I thought about adding gelatin to the keg, but my wife and I decided when we tasted it that we kind of liked it on the hazy side, to remind us that it's homemade. I'm also really not bothered by haze in my beers, just thought the clear cider would look pretty, but it looks really nice as it is. Will post pics at some point.

Here's a pic of the cider. Over the past week or so it doesn't seem to have changed at all, as far as clarity or taste. I haven't done another gravity check, but based on how consistent the sweetness has been, I believe I was able to arrest fermentation pretty well using temp control and racking alone, without sorbate or sulfite. Granted, having a keg for this job helped a lot. I think it would have been a lot trickier to do this with bottled cider without producing a few bombs.

I should mention that my mini-fridge doesn't have a controller, and so even when set to hover around 34 degrees, it periodically jumps up to the low 40s for the defrost cycle. So, the conditions needed to completely put the yeast to sleep never really happened. This actually worked in my favor, since I moved everything into the fridge at a pretty high SG, relative to where I wanted to end up. Drawing the last bit of fermentation out over six weeks worked out well for me, but I could see getting the same final result quicker by leaving it out of the fridge until 1.012 or so, then putting it in the fridge to drop the yeast and finish the last little bit of fermentation. I may add gelatin at this point too, next time.

Aside from the haze in this batch, which doesn't really bother me, I suppose the only other flaw, if you want to call it that, is the relatively low ABV. I could have added FAJC or sugar to the juice that I pressed, to boost the SG a bit before fermentation to get the ABV to 5.5% or so, but I'm really not missing that extra point. I'm actually glad I didn't mess with the juice that I got, given how well the aroma and flavor of the apples is coming through. (It does sort of coat your mouth as one of the commenters said.) If I had to compare it to a commercial cider, I'd say it's kinda similar to Magners, which apparently is also 4.5% ABV.

Based on these results, I would definitely recommend using the cold crash method to anybody who has the means, and prefers a sparkling cider with some sweetness, similar to, but much better than, most of the commercial stuff out there. I plan to repeat this with another batch of juice later this month. Along with everything I've already described, I believe that keeping the headspace to a minimum in all of my secondary containers (carboys and growlers) was definitely beneficial to the final product.

A side note about the yeast (Wyeast Cider 4766): I think it performed pretty well in this batch. I plan to reuse the yeast cake from the gallon I have set aside in my next batch in a couple of weeks. Maybe next year I'll try something new. I've noticed some glowing reviews of Danstar Belle Saison in cider, for one. Still interested, mainly from a historical perspective, if anyone out there knows the source of the Wyeast Cider yeast.

Dude, sorry to hit and run post like like that. The post update emails never arrived or posted to me in any way.

I've never used 4766 - I use s04 or Nottingham. I prefer Nottingham by a small margin b/c... wait for it... it drops clear faster.

Never had cloudy cider after cold aging except for "Fall Cider" which was Pumpkin Pie seasoning from the grocery store

That said, TWO local Cideries use my crash at ~1.020 process (modified for their equipment of course) to make ALL of their ciders.

My favorite is cold pressed juice, so4/nottingham down to 1.010 or a little higher, cold crash and wait a couple/three weeks... and keg carb to drink immediately.

I think the push for Woodchuck/Angry Orchard/All other mass appeal American ciders is 99% the same. Irish vs. French vs. English style and a handful of American standouts not withstanding.

Gelatin knocks the haze right out. That's what I do. Cold crashing is nowhere near as effective as gelatin.

I appreciate the good advice. I checked the gravity again today, and it was 1.010. My refractometer tells me 5.4 Brix, down from 5.8 Brix (1.011 SG) when I tapped the keg 12 days ago. It was, in fact, the end of the ~4 gallons I kegged. (My neighbor and I put a hurt on it that first weekend.) I don't think the taste really changed over time. Maybe I "noticed" the sourness left behind by the yeast a little more, but it was definitely not unpleasant, and the sweetness was still just right for my taste. I managed to actually stash a couple of bottles away for a competition next month.

I'm definitely considering gelatin for the next batch. Which is the best stage to use it? Primary, secondary, or can I add it straight to the keg? Will it drop out any yeast still in suspension?

FunkyMunk said:

I'm definitely considering gelatin for the next batch. Which is the best stage to use it? Primary, secondary, or can I add it straight to the keg? Will it drop out any yeast still in suspension?

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I use it in primary when gravity gets around 1.010-1.015, then rack, then use again in secondary immediately prior to bottling IF it needs more clarity. It removes approximately 95% of the yeast from what I can tell -- I have not used a microscope for this estimation but I assume it's in that ballpark, as I know there is still enough yeast left to keep on working afterwards and perform natural carbonation if you go that route.

I meant to mention also that the mini-fridge I used for cold-crashing does not have a temp controller, so although I was able to get the temp down to 34-35 or so, it was very inconsistent due to the defrost cycle, which would periodically bring temps up into the 40s. This likely had an impact on my ability to put the yeast to sleep completely, although it did seem to do a pretty good job at slowing things down enough to keep the cider at the desirable sweetness level through its lifespan. Hoping it does the same for the two bottles I stashed in there for a competition in 3 weeks.

Meant to update this old thread a while ago. The original batch from this thread ended up placing first in a small local competition. The bottles sat in the fridge for about 5 weeks after I filled them from the keg, and they apparently had pretty good carbonation and "light residual sweetness" when opened. Both judges gave it 45/50, which was good enough for a blue ribbon. One of the notes was "like biting into a pink lady" (still haven't identified the apples I used). Both praised the prominent apple character, balanced acidity, brilliant clarity. One called out a hint of sulfur in the aroma, which I must not have really noticed or cared about when I was drinking it. I also bottled some of the same cider that had fermented to dry in a separate carboy, and sampling it now, it's fairly smooth and very enjoyable. It's definitely distinct from the semi-sweet version, with less apple character which seems to leave the acidity more noticeable. However, compared to my previous batches, when I was much less careful about preventing oxidation, it actually still tastes like cider instead of vinegar. I'll probably save the rest for next fall.

I also made a second batch from unpasteurized juice acquired by my LHBS from local orchards. This batch used 6 gallons of late-season juice that was mostly from Jonagolds (OG: 1.050). I harvested some yeast from the first batch and pitched into the juice, and kept the temp in the low 60s. I meant to replicate the method from the first batch, but inadvertently let the gravity get down to 1.003. (This batch fermented much faster than the first; this was already 1.003 after about two weeks, while the first was only 1.012 in the same amount of time.) Another 10 days later, SG was the same, so I added 3 cans of FAJC to make it semi-sweet and kegged it. While I definitely preferred the first batch, this batch was still good. The biggest noticeable differences were less overall apple character (despite the FAJC) and higher alcohol (both due to the higher OG and the additional fermentation). I also noticed that cider made from mostly Jonagolds just wasn't quite as flavorful overall, which makes sense since it's pretty much a dessert apple. The color was lighter than the first batch, as well, although both clarified pretty well eventually. I wouldn't discount this method, since it's a bit easier than having to take constant gravity measures and rack/chill fermenters, but the first batch had enough going for it that it's definitely worth the extra effort.

Congrats on the ribbon bro.