not much cold break

So, I started using hop bags, and I discovered something. I am getting very little cold break, which explains my very hazy beer. I've tried irish moss in the kettle and gelitin in the carboy, still have chill haze.

I typically do a single infusion mash at about 154 degrees, batch sparge at 170 - 175, and boil for 90 minutes.

I am using an immersion chiller to get down to about 100 degress in about 20 minutes, then an ice bath to get to 75ish after about another 20 minutes.

I get maybe 2 tablespoons of cold break, which, judging from pics on this site, is pretty low.

Thoughts?

Boil a gallon of water to kill nasties. When you sparge, keep your total volume down to 5 gallons. Do your boil as normal. start your chiller up and smoothly poor in the gallon of now cold water. You'll immediately see big globs of gook floating around. BTW Even without doing this you should be getting a lot of break. Are your boils vigorous? If not, you may be missing a strong hot break. Also, are you whirlpooling like your life depends on it before racking to primary?

With what you are doing, you should get a good break. At least, you ought to get better than two teaspoons. Especially in Houston, I find the key to getting that good break is in the early part of cooling. Let the water run through your chiller as fast as possible as you feel comfortable without blowing a hose off, and move that coil around in the kettle to get better convection effect. I don't know how long it takes me to get down to 100F, but it seems like it takes far less that 20 minutes.

In fact, it seemed like it took me only about 20 minutes (if that) to get down to about 85F on Sunday with my immersion chiller. Of course, that probably wouldn't happen in the Summer.

You could also try a protein rest, but I imagine you are only set up for a single stage mash. I'm in a similar situation, but you can give decocting a shot to get your temps up. It's not that tough or that much of a worry, especially if you go with highly diastatic malts.


TL

Thanks for the help guys.

To awnser questions:

1) I get great hot break. I have to watch that kettle like a hawk, or a foamy explosion will kick out a ton of my wort when the boil starts.

2) I boil pretty vigerously. I usually lose almost a gallon of water in 75 - 90 minutes, which seems to be a lot if you live in Houston.

3) I whirlpool pretty vigerously as well. Enough that if I do any more, I will probably lose wort out of the top of the kettle.

I have been considering a sump-pump ice water addition to my chilling equipment, and if 20 minutes seems a bit long to get down to 100, I will probably make the plunge. I think home depot has them for like $30.

I have also thought about decocting, but I have just got the all-grain thing together repeadly pretty recently. I just added a grain mill to my brewery, and want to try my normal mash schedule a few times to check for differences in my efficiency.

I might try the one gallon cold water infusion to see if I get a noticable cold break, but I was under the impression that boiling with 5->4 gallons would increase my hop utilization as compared to 6->5 gallons. Am I going to make my beer a bit more bitter if I do this?

BeerAg said:

Thanks for the help guys.

II might try the one gallon cold water infusion to see if I get a noticable cold break, but I was under the impression that boiling with 5->4 gallons would increase my hop utilization as compared to 6->5 gallons. Am I going to make my beer a bit more bitter if I do this?

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I'm sorry- I don't understand this question about hops utilization. Could you explain this a bit more?

Thanks!

You aren't going to get much cold break forming unless you get to below 60f

You'll get better ultilization from boiling more wort VS less wort.

Your hop utilization drops slightly as your wort gets more concentrated. But if you do the math with a beer calculator, then you find the difference between a 5 gallon boil and a 6 gallon boil are pretty small. Dumping cold water into the pot after flameout is a powerful way to precipitate break. The overall temp of the wort won't drop a whole lot, but in localized pockets, the temp drop is dramatic and lightning fast making big globs of break form. The last thing I have for you is this: Do you leave the pot to sit and settle before racking? I leave mine for an hour or so, and end up with an inch and a half of nasty chunky stuff in the bottom of the pot. We're missing something simple in your process. The chiller alone should do a very good job of forcing precipitation, but in your case it isn't. This must be a procedure problem. We'll figure it out, keep feeding us info and I bet it will be obvious.

To awnser the question, I usually swirl, rack the wort, areate and pitch as soon as the temp hits the 78 degree range. I was under the impression that letting 75 degree sugar water sit around was a great way to invite infection or wild yeast.

Also, once the boil is done, I am usually ready to finish up pretty quickly so that I can start sampling previous brews in earnest.

I let sit 30 minutes after chilling and whirl-pooling to settle and get a ton of break. I do make sure to cover everything very well and make sure there isn't any breeze blowing through to kick up dust or nasties. You should be ok letting your set a little longer to settle better, but I have no idea why you didn't have a bunch of break to begin with.

Another option, I've considered is to rack into a carboy and let it sit for a day, then rack to another and pitch. Easier to keep it protected in a carboy. Consider boiled wort to be pasteurized to the max, so if you're sanitary it could keep that long.

shafferpilot said:

Another option, I've considered is to rack into a carboy and let it sit for a day, then rack to another and pitch. Easier to keep it protected in a carboy. Consider boiled wort to be pasteurized to the max, so if you're sanitary it could keep that long.

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But the air surrounding it isn't sanitary and that's when a bug could grab hold of your brew and ruin a brewday. Don't worry about cold break. Some good nutrients are contained in it. Get out what you can, but pitch that yeast as soon as you can, IMO.

I think you'll be fine letting it sit for another 10mins to get it below 70. I do it every time. I think people are just a bit too crazy about the nasties. I have found that beer is awfully resilient especially when you introduce 5 billion yeast cells out of that dry packet. No bug is going to have a chance in hell of winning that war. (consider how unsanitary they used to be ...back in the day)

BeerAg said:

I've tried .... gelitin in the carboy, still have chill haze.

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How did you use the gelatin? It needs to be added to a beer that is at a temperature where the chill haze is developing in order to precipitate it. Chill to below 45 *F and then add the gelatin.

BTW, what malt are you using?

There was one batch that I made which never cleared though similar ones cleared just fine. It was a pale ale made with a German Pilsner malt (Weyermann Pilsner). The mash was a single infusion mash and the beer never cleared. My process usually produces fairly clear beers, but I generally do a protein rest with this malt. I ended up blaming the haze at the missing protein rest as the same beer made with pale malt (single infusion) comes out very clear.


Protein rests in a cooler aren't that complicated. I do it all the time. Just dough in with about 1 lb/qt to get to 133 *F. After 20 min add boiling water to get to your conversion temp. Don't worry about the thinner mash, most mashes in German brewing are more around 2 qts/lb. You will also notice that you can hit the temp very precisely as you can measure the mash temp while adding the water. Don't forget to stir though.

Kai

I feel like I'm in a self-help support group but I've NEVER seen a cold break. My IC can bring my 5 (or 5.5) gallon batches to mid 70's in about 15 minutes (I brew outside and late fall is setting in).

Thanks for the tip on vigorous boils, I'm watching my 7.5 gallon pot like a hawk to prevent boil-overs and my boils are just hot enough to cause bubbles.

SWMBO loves Blue Moon - I can use this as an "excuse" to get my keggle into motion... "But I need a bigger kettle if you want me to make REAL Blue Moon.".

Oh, the horror...

Kevin Dean said:

I feel like I'm in a self-help support group but I've NEVER seen a cold break. My IC can bring my 5 (or 5.5) gallon batches to mid 70's in about 15 minutes (I brew outside and late fall is setting in).

...

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Same here. When I use my IC I never see it because everything in the kettle goes into the fermenter. The hot/cold break are good for fermenting so why leave it out. It also settles and when you rack you leave it behind.
Also when I use my CFC I don't see any. But I know I'm getting it. I have over a gallon of sludge that I leave behind in the fermenter after racking.

Kevin Dean said:

Thanks for the tip on vigorous boils, I'm watching my 7.5 gallon pot like a hawk to prevent boil-overs and my boils are just hot enough to cause bubbles.

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Watch for the boil-off rate. It should be between 8 and 15 %/hr. To much can end up hurting the beer.

FSR402 said:

Same here. When I use my IC I never see it because everything in the kettle goes into the fermenter. The hot/cold break are good for fermenting so why leave it out. It also settles and when you rack you leave it behind.

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Some cold break may be beneficial. To much will end up hurting the yeast by clogging its membranes. I recommend leaving behind as much as you can.

Kai