How to adjust this water for brewing a light lager or Kolsch?

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haeffnkr

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Hello,
Here are my numbers from Wards

I live in Missouri and the water is supposedly a river sourced supply...63376
These numbers are fairly close to what I expected based on local water company reports.

pH 8.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 419
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.70
Cations / Anions, me/L 7.0 / 6.5

ppm
Sodium, Na 84
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 29
Magnesium, Mg 21
Total Hardness, CaCO3 160
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 25
Chloride, Cl 123
Carbonate, CO3 6
Bicarbonate, HCO3 74
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 70

When I put these numbers a light lager and Kolsch recipe into EZ water (and have not tried BrunWater yet) it showed I needed to lower the Ph and my calcium level was a bit low and my chloride/sulfate ratio was on the malty side.

What is the best way to adjust these?

To Note -
I do BIAB with 8.5 gallons of water to start with and no sparge, etc.
I carbon filter my water and add on campden tablet to it.
The water I used for the Wards test was straight from my tap.

thanks for your help in advance
Kevin
 
Thanks for the help Yooper.
I am trying to understand your reasoning of using other water though...

With the addition of 3 grams of gypsum and 3 ml of Latic Acid that puts my mash at 5.52 with a recipe of
9 Pilsner
.5 Vienna
.5 Munich

My numbers all all balanced on the EZ sheet.
I guess I want very low Na numbers for a lager though?

John Palmer said this... At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavor... re Na.
I see though that a lot of the lager beer city water profiles he notes have single digit Na numbers though.

I thought I have made pretty good light beers so far with this water so far.
I also was not expecting this high of a number based on some of the local reports area reports I found in my area.

thanks Kevin
 
Agreed with yooper. There are a lot of mineral contents too high in your water for a clean lager or Kolsch. RO would be the best way to go. With the amount of dissolved solids you have adding more isn't going to help for a light style beer.
 
thanks for the replies thus far -

I understand that it is easy to adjust the Ph down and that would just add more minerals to my water.
I also get that Pilsen type water has way less minerals than my city water does.

I guess I am trying to understand what flavor or off flavors I would get from this water vs what the same beer would taste like made with all RO water.

I thought I made a good Kolsch thus far and my first Lager seemed to be a success also but since I have been basically using the same water and same filter/campden/5.2 stabilizer/brewing process for a few different styles of beer over about 15 batches... maybe I am immune to the possible off flavors in my beer that my water is producing.

Does that make sense?

thanks Kevin
 
haeffnkr said:
thanks for the replies thus far -

I understand that it is easy to adjust the Ph down and that would just add more minerals to my water.
I also get that Pilsen type water has way less minerals than my city water does.

I guess I am trying to understand what flavor or off flavors I would get from this water vs what the same beer would taste like made with all RO water.

I thought I made a good Kolsch thus far and my first Lager seemed to be a success also but since I have been basically using the same water and same filter/campden/5.2 stabilizer/brewing process for a few different styles of beer over about 15 batches... maybe I am immune to the possible off flavors in my beer that my water is producing.

Does that make sense?

thanks Kevin
Click to expand...
Good is 'good enough' until you have had 'better'. It could be that your water suits YOUR needs perfectly but you come here for the 'collective wisdom'. You are free to use, or not use, the advice as suits your individual taste. There is not much point in asking advice if you don't really want it though.
 
I think you could get by with a 1:1 dilution with RO or distilled water. The Na and Cl are both too high for a delicate beer like Kolsch. The sodium levels that John quotes are not appropriate for brewing many styles. In addition, when high sodium is included along with high chloride and/or sulfate, the water is likely to have a 'minerally' flavor.

And do yourself a big favor and drop the 5.2 in your trash can and count it as a learning experience. That is not the way to go. Maybe you are sodium insensitive? You should have tasted the strong 'salty' flavor if using that product at its recommended dosage in this tap water.
 
Thanks for all the replies.

Using RO water was not the answer I was expecting but as I continue to read more about it seems like a good way to go.
The whole idea of a blank slate decorated as I want it = RO water and additions to suit the style of beer I want to brew.

Yes... mabye I am insensitive to the mineral/salt taste... The description of what the extra minerals would taste like in my beer is what I was after.

I will definately start over on my next Kolsch brew and see if I can taste the difference with my current beers vs ones made from RO water.

thanks again
Kevin
 
Hooray! Martin to the rescue. Kevin, there is a meandering & winding conversation about Kolsch HERE including some information from a chemist from Cologne (or Germany anyway) and maybe something in there will help with your Kolsch. Cheers.
 
Forgive me for straying slightly off the topic but this has been in my head for awhile. It seems like when brewers exchange recipes, the last thing they discuss is water. I feel like it's one of those areas where you can really fine tune your beers but that many brewers don't look into it. I realize that some brewers might have great water for the styles that they normally brew so for them it's not a big deal to worry about water. But I just can't see homebrewers being able to brew a wide range of styles with the same water without ever looking into the water. There are certain recipes I have put together that would come out great for some people but terrible for others, based on their water. I talk with brewers all the time who say, "Oh, we have GREAT brewing water!" but I'm not sure you can say that about all styles. If someone had great, soft source water, you could say, "We have great water because it's soft and you can make certain styles as-is and others just need a small addition of [this] or [that]." But I can't see a blanket term "great water" covering the whole range of styles. Sorry for the rant, waterheads!
 
kenlenard said:
It seems like when brewers exchange recipes, the last thing they discuss is water. I feel like it's one of those areas where you can really fine tune your beers but that many brewers don't look into it. I realize that some brewers might have great water for the styles that they normally brew so for them it's not a big deal to worry about water.
Click to expand...
They are going to drift toward the recipes that come out well. Sound familiar? ;)
 
Hermit said:
They are going to drift toward the recipes that come out well. Sound familiar? ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, it does. But that would mean that no one would ever say, "Hey, I want to make [this beer] which is a style that I rarely make. The last time I made it, it came out terrible... what should I do?".

I realize that there are many brewers out there who know that you may have to make water mods when making a style that is not compatible with their water but it seems like so many brewers out there have no idea what's in their water. I'm heading out to a brewpub tonight to see some of the local brewers and I guarantee that at some point I'm going to say something about chloride-to-sulfate ratios, water additions, diluting source water or residual alkalinity and a number of them will stare blankly at me while the crickets chirp. :cross: Oh well.
 
kenlenard said:
Forgive me for straying slightly off the topic but this has been in my head for awhile. It seems like when brewers exchange recipes, the last thing they discuss is water. I feel like it's one of those areas where you can really fine tune your beers but that many brewers don't look into it. I realize that some brewers might have great water for the styles that they normally brew so for them it's not a big deal to worry about water. But I just can't see homebrewers being able to brew a wide range of styles with the same water without ever looking into the water. There are certain recipes I have put together that would come out great for some people but terrible for others, based on their water. I talk with brewers all the time who say, "Oh, we have GREAT brewing water!" but I'm not sure you can say that about all styles. If someone had great, soft source water, you could say, "We have great water because it's soft and you can make certain styles as-is and others just need a small addition of [this] or [that]." But I can't see a blanket term "great water" covering the whole range of styles. Sorry for the rant, waterheads!
Click to expand...


well, I think for many of us, it's just understood that when you brew a Bohemian pilsner, you'll use almost-distilled water, and when you brew a stout that you'll use alkalinity to hit your mash pH target.

I don't think certain water is at all part of the recipe- instead proper brewing techniques include appropriate water for all styles.

That's why I HATE recipes that say "1 teaspoon of gypsum" in them, as an example. Really? What do they base this on? Their water? Everybody's? That's why I just think water is something you always deal with.
 
Yooper said:
well, I think for many of us, it's just understood that when you brew a Bohemian pilsner, you'll use almost-distilled water, and when you brew a stout that you'll use alkalinity to hit your mash pH target.

I don't think certain water is at all part of the recipe- instead proper brewing techniques include appropriate water for all styles.

That's why I HATE recipes that say "1 teaspoon of gypsum" in them, as an example. Really? What do they base this on? Their water? Everybody's? That's why I just think water is something you always deal with.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've seen people say to add a gram of whatever and of course you can't know how that will play out unless you know the water so I agree, that's annoying. I guess the issue is that I like many beer styles on the low end of the SRM range and my bicarbonate level does not play well with those styles so I have had to adjust. I have seen some really whacked-out water numbers posted by people and most of them realize the limitations of the water and make the proper adjustments. When I see a water report like Kevin's (with the high level of Na), I see that there are battles to be fought on all fronts as far as water goes. He may have to dilute to get his Na down the same way I dilute to get my bicarb down. There is a book coming out in the homebrewing series with Yeast, Hops, etc. and it's called Water. I believe John Palmer is a part of it. It doesn't come out until March or April 2013 but Amazon is taking preorders for something like $10 so I think I'll grab it just for grins. Cheers Beerheads.

Ps. The book on Water is HERE
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't think the book will be released in March, as last I heard John is still working on it. But yes, I think it would be a good bet for anybody who wants to go into what I think of as "The Final Frontier" of brewing and learn about water.

Really, beer is like 90% water so it's a huge ingredient and important in each brew.

I purchased my own RO water system last year, as I got tired of carrying water home from the store to mix with my tap water.
 
Yooper said:
I don't think the book will be released in March, as last I heard John is still working on it. But yes, I think it would be a good bet for anybody who wants to go into what I think of as "The Final Frontier" of brewing and learn about water.

Really, beer is like 90% water so it's a huge ingredient and important in each brew.

I purchased my own RO water system last year, as I got tired of carrying water home from the store to mix with my tap water.
Click to expand...

Are you in Texas? I was just talking with two other Texans in the past week who both said, "Everyone I know who brews in TX has an RO system in their house!". At this point I have resolved to finding cheap distilled water and just grabbing as many as I can when I find it cheap. At least that way I know that all of the numbers are ZERO. I was getting bulk RO water from my grocery store and had a suspicion about it so I sent some to Ward Labs. Turns out the TDS number was 68 and the HCO3 number was 50! This is not good RO water so distilled for me from now on.

Also, Amazon says the book is coming out April 16. Should be good.
 
kenlenard said:
Are you in Texas? I was just talking with two other Texans in the past week who both said, "Everyone I know who brews in TX has an RO system in their house!". At this point I have resolved to finding cheap distilled water and just grabbing as many as I can when I find it cheap. At least that way I know that all of the numbers are ZERO. I was getting bulk RO water from my grocery store and had a suspicion about it so I sent some to Ward Labs. Turns out the TDS number was 68 and the HCO3 number was 50! This is not good RO water so distilled for me from now on.

Also, Amazon says the book is coming out April 16. Should be good.
Click to expand...

I am in Texas currently, but I don't brew here besides at my neighbor's.

I bought my RO system for my house in Upper Michigan. Our water tastes great, but it's high in bicarbonate, and I have to dilute with RO (or use all RO water), depending on what I'm making.
 
kenlenard said:
But I can't see a blanket term "great water" covering the whole range of styles. Sorry for the rant, waterheads!
Click to expand...

Exactly, there is no such thing as a great water for all styles. A brewer's water might be well suited for a range of styles. But to make the full range of styles, a brewer has to understand the why, what, and how of brewing water chemistry.

AJ and I just got several nearly final chapters for the Water book earlier this week. Time for review. Looks like my free-time is gone (as if I had any).
 

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