Surly Abrasive clone

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Seems like from my calcs plugging in Stauff's numbers, his was around 8.4-8.5 SRM. If it was just a hair dark, could be looking at a 8.2-8.3SRM. Not sure how to calculate 90 min effects on SRM, beersmith doesn't change the figures, but I know it does get darker.

As I mentioned mine was a hair light... not a hair dark... Sorry again for the confusion. I'm going to post the recipe and process on my next post....
 
Ok, here's my recipe and process...

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.80 gal
Boil Size: 7.20 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Volume 6.00 gal
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.30 gal

6 lbs Golden Promis 36.8 %
6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) 36.8 %
1 lbs 12.8 oz Golden Naked Oats 11.0 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L 4.6 %
4.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine 1.5 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 1.5 %
1.00 oz Citra [14.10 %] - First Wort 80.0 min 47.9 IBUs
1.50 oz Warrior [16.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min 73.4 IBUs
1 lbs 4.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 15 min] 7.7 %
2.00 oz Citra [14.10 %] - Boil 0.0 min (45 minute hop stand at 170F)0.0 IBUs
0.20 oz Warrior [16.70 %] - Boil 0.0 min (45 minute hop stand at 170F) 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007)
2.00 oz Citra [14.10 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days
1.00 oz Warrior [16.70 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days

Measured Original Gravity: 1.079 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 8.6 %
Est Color: 8.5 SRM

Mash temp = 148F
Mash Duration = 2 hours
Fermentation Temp = 65F
Primary Fermentation = 7 days
Dry Hop = 7days
 
Too much GNO my dude. GNO are quite sweet and 11% is quite high. Combine this with another 6% crystal malt and you have significant residual sweetness for an IIPA.
 
Too much GNO my dude. GNO are quite sweet and 11% is quite high. Combine this with another 6% crystal malt and you have significant residual sweetness for an IIPA.

While I would tend to agree usually, the side by side was so close I would consider not changing a thing and just brewing it again. I'm loving the stuff! I do like beers on the sweet side, though, so I might be biased.

Perhaps next time I'll dial it down a bit.

Thanks for the recommendation bobbrews!
 
I used less than half that for mine and it was also close. Instead of making adjustments to hit the SRM, I would worry about the flavor, aroma, and body first. Color is important when cloning, but it comes in last compared to the other areas. With that said, you really only need 5% GNO & 4% C20 to hit 8 SRM... all other things considered in this recipe.
 
I used less than half that for mine and it was also close. Instead of making adjustments to hit the SRM, I would worry about the flavor, aroma, and body first. Color is important when cloning, but it comes in last compared to the other areas. With that said, you really only need 5% GNO and 4% C20 to hit 8 SRM... all other things considered in this recipe.

I agree. At this point the only thing I really care to change is to increase the dankness in the nose and flavor. Aside from that I'm not to worried about the color. I'm not usually one to want to clone beers, but Abrasive is just so good.

When I did the side by side the other night they actually tasted even more alike after warming a few minutes. If that's as good as it gets for me, then I'll feel accomplished.

I think I'll take your advice and dial down the GNO, and I'll tweak my hop schedule and see how different that makes it.
 
Try somewhere in the middle... 6% each GNO & C20. My partial mash version used 5% and 4% respectively. Flavorwise, it needed slightly more, but not by too much.

I also don't get dankness from Abrasive. It's fruity, citrusy, and tropical with all of that Citra hop focus. Warrior is edgy as a bittering hop, but not as a FWH. And it's not particularly dank; it's more citrusy. Dank notes would be had from a lot of Columbus, as we see used in Heady Topper and Pliny the Elder. Apollo would also offer dank.
 
I am almost wondering if there are hops in Abrasive they don't list on the website. Abrasives taste/smell seem to be more complex than just straight Citra. Unless the combination of warrior and citra at different times produces the unreal flavor/smell?
 
@legasus

I could believe a Citra & Amarillo mix. Kern River Citra IIPA does this. You're not going to drastically alter the flavor profile of this beer if you should choose to use some Amarillo late to cut the Citra. It might even be better.
 
I confirmed a few important items today which I have on pretty good authority. First off, there are NOT ANY golden naked oats, they use flaked oats at about 11%. What is yet unknown is the ratio of 2 row and golden promise. For now, I am rolling with a 50/50 mix. 2nd, Warrior is solely used for bittering and citra is used for mash hops, whirlpool hops, and dryhopping. For a 5.5 gallon batch, you want roughly 1/4 oz. citra for mash hops, 2 3/4 oz. warrior for 60 minute boil, 1.75 oz. citra for whirlpool and over 6.5 oz. dry hops. Hope this helps guys. I am going to give this one a go one night next week and report back. Another important ingredient is the brewers crystals. Subbing with straight corn or table sugar is not the same. I order brewers crystals and for the recipe I am doing, I plan to use just south of a pound. You need to mash low, probably 147-148 because it needs to attenuate down to 1.010. Make sure to pitch a big starter, I recommend a 2 litre of WLP007. Try to keep fermentation as close to 66 degrees as possilble.
 
I have now brewed this twice and it is as close to the real thing as a homebrewer is going to get. I will post the recipe if anyone is interested.
 
Here is the recipe for 5.5 gallons, keep in mind these amounts are based on the exact percentages of each of the ingredients provided by Surly's head brewer.

Mash: 90 min at 147 degrees, batch sparge. Pre boil volume of about 8.75 gallons. Boil for 60 minutes. Use whirlfloc and yeast nutrient at 15 min. OG 19.5p, =1.079, FG should get to 2.5p = 1.009

6.15 lbs. of 2-row
5 lbs. Golden Promise
1.63 lbs, flaked oats
1.15 lbs. crystal 40L
.85 lb. Brewers crystals (added at 45 min.into boil).

For the brewers crystals, in beersmith I subbed with light dme to figure out the impact on gravity.

Hops:
Mash : .25 oz. Citra
Boil: 2.63 oz. Warrior
Whirlpool: 1.76 oz. Citra
Dry hops (5 days): 6.5 oz Citra

For the whirlpool, I chilled the wort to about 145 degrees, then added the hops and got a nice fast whirlpool going, covered and let sit for about 45 minutes without the chiller, the chilled the rest of the way.

Yeast: WLP007. I made a 2 litre starter on a stirplate for 18 hours, then put in the fridge for 24 hours, decanted and pitched at 68 degrees. An even bigger starter wouldn't hurt. Try to keep ferm temp as close to 66 degrees as possible.

The first few weeks in the keg it was delicious and kind of in the ballpark, but after about 3-4 weeks in the keg, this thing is finally perfect. Color, aroma, and taste are identical to the real thing. I had a can left to compare with. I will try to post a side by side pic soon. The overwhelming fruity/oniony/piny aroma finally developed after cold conditioning, so do yourself a favor and let this thing sit in the keezer for at least three weeks after kegging to let it do its thing, resist the urge to drink a bunch before then, you won't be disappointed, i promise! Cheers!

Winner winner!
 
Thanks for the leg work.. I'm kind of tired of Citra, atleast in my homebrews, and got a can of Abrasive as an "extra" in a trade recently and just cracked it.. The aroma from the can, and the flavor are excellent.. Awesome enough I found myself here looking for a clone attempt, something close atleast!
 
legasus,

When I plug that recipe into Beersmith @60 minutes, 5.5G @70% eff, I get an OG of 1.071.
Beersmith doesn't have Brewers Crystals in the list, so I put in corn sugar.
I can't find what Brewers Crystals contributes to the boil....so I'll take it on faith that you're telling me that this recipe will yield 1.079.

Looking to brew this in the next couple days....Thanks.
 
Are brewers crystals supposed to be Belgian candy sugar or invert sugar in crystal form? If so, any idea what the color is because those come in light, blonde, medium/amber, and dark. I would personally use the simplicity Belgian Candi sugars as my LHBS various them in stock.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app
 
The hops listed are as follows:

Hops:
Mash : .25 oz. Citra
Boil: 2.63 oz. Warrior
Whirlpool: 1.76 oz. Citra
Dry hops (5 days): 6.5 oz Citra

Everything is self explained except for the 2.63oz. Warrior. When in the boil? I doubt the entire amount is used for bittering at 60 min or is it?

Cheers .... Ed
 
Looks like the recipe has changed. Website shows no crystal and the use of golden naked oats rather than regular oats.

Surly uses Golden Naked Oats in several of their other recipes, so I'd be curious if that has actually changed in Abrasive or if they are just being more forthcoming/accurate.
 
Hmmm... So what to do?

Use the recipe that Legasus posted or try to change it up with golden naked oats. It looks like my LHBS doesn't have them and I hate to order one malt online so I'd love to just use flaked oats.
 
I have brewed the recipe 4 or 5 times now. Use it only as a guide as your system is different in terms of boil off, losses, etc. Shoot for the target gravity and IBU. I used GNO the first time I brewed this and didn't care for the beer. Stick with flaked oats. I wouldn't try to sub out the brewers crystals. Order them online for 3 or 4 bucks a pound, its worth the wait.
 
Thanks for the reply.

I hear what you're saying about the brewers crystals but I just can't see how maltose would be that different than glucose in a beer with so many hops. But if I can find cheap shipping I may buy them. My LHBS will also special order so that may be an option too. And I have 3 or 4 in my area so maybe one carries it.
 
I have brewed the recipe 4 or 5 times now. Use it only as a guide as your system is different in terms of boil off, losses, etc. Shoot for the target gravity and IBU. I used GNO the first time I brewed this and didn't care for the beer. Stick with flaked oats. I wouldn't try to sub out the brewers crystals. Order them online for 3 or 4 bucks a pound, its worth the wait.

Since you seem to have a contact at Surly, do you have any insight about whether the recipe actually changed or was just incorrectly listed before on their website? Specifically, Golden Promise is no longer listed and that definitely has an impact on the final beer. I've made it before using about half Golden Promise with good results, fwiw.
 
He said they have pulled most of the golden promise from the beer due to color issues. It was made very specific to me that flaked oats make up 11% of the grist. Give GNO a try if you want, I just don't think you will care for the results. Try to get brewers crystals if you can. If you are already dropping a bunch of $ on a load of citra to make this beer, I wouldn't try to cut corners. By the way, I think the website used to say the yeast was dry English ale yeast (WL007), but now it only says English ale yeast. Make sure you stick to the 007, it was made very clear to me to get the beer to attenuate down to 2.5p. The only way to get there is by mashing low (147 ish) and pitching a big starter. Keep fermentation temp at 66 if possible. Do have the dry hops in the primary and the rest into secondary. Cheers!
 
Thanks for the info. Interesting about the color issues causing removal of the Simpson's Golden. I wonder how its removal has affected flavor. Tasting Abrasive from the can this year, it doesn't taste quite the same as a couple of years ago, which I preferred. Thinner body and less bready flavor that used to offset the hoppiness so well. If the recipe has changed that substantially in terms of malt bill, it seems unlikely the beer did not.
 
I got to try my clone vs the real thing tonight. Recipe and picture below. You can see in the picture, that mine is a smidge darker. Hard to see, but mine isn't as clear either. Theirs was canned 2/6/15 and I kegged mine 3/29/15.

Mine is pretty close. My gf said she couldn't tell the difference but I could. Mine isn't as bitter. Next time I'd probably boil for 90 and increase the bittering hops and increase the sulfate. Also, I'm getting some additional aromas from the real thing. Both are only citra hops. Not sure where their additional aromas are coming from. Yes, I had some differences. Could it have been the hop shot? The different yeast? Using corn sugar instead of brewers crystals? Mine is a damn fine beer though. Everyone I've given it to mentioned how smooth the bitterness is. It's good, but I'd prefer a sharper bitterness.

Recipe:
Code:
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
6 lbs                 Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        44.6 %        
4 lbs 8.0 oz          Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM)      Grain         2        33.4 %        
1 lbs 7.4 oz          Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)                   Grain         3        10.9 %        
1 lbs                 Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)    Grain         4        7.4 %         
0.25 oz               Citra [12.00 %] - Mash 90.0 min          Hop           5        2.7 IBUs      
8.0 oz                Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM)          Sugar         6        3.7 %         
19 ml              HopShot [61.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min        Hop           7        172.8 IBUs    
1.75 oz               Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  45.0  Hop           8        32.2 IBUs     
1.0 pkg               California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast         9        -             
3.00 oz               Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days       Hop           10       0.0 IBUs      
3.00 oz               Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days       Hop           11       0.0 IBUs

Water profile:
Code:
Ca - 	120 ppm
Mg - 	18 ppm
Na - 	24 ppm
SO4 - 	300 ppm
Cl - 	30 ppm
HCO3 - 	29 ppm

Real thing on the left; clone on the right.
FGCn6kc.jpg
 
Not using the right yeast and subbing the brewers crystals could cause the difference in effect of the bitterness. White Labs 007 has a different profile than 001. Your color is great though! I have brewed this 4 or 5 times and its almost impossible to match Surly's aroma. They use a centrifuge to "filter" their beer and I personally think that helps amp up their aroma. Also, more gypsum to harden the water even more.
 
I got to try my clone vs the real thing tonight. Recipe and picture below.

Did you use any acid to get your pH in range? What mash pH were you shooting for?

Your recipe and water profile is very similar to many IPAs and IIPAs I brew and I'd like to see if I can brew this as a variant with Simcoe and Amarillo since I have a ton of those hops on hand and need to use them up before I get some Citra from this years' harvest.

Awesome info too! I wish more recipe posters would include water info!
 
Not using the right yeast and subbing the brewers crystals could cause the difference in effect of the bitterness. White Labs 007 has a different profile than 001. Your color is great though! I have brewed this 4 or 5 times and its almost impossible to match Surly's aroma. They use a centrifuge to "filter" their beer and I personally think that helps amp up their aroma. Also, more gypsum to harden the water even more.
Thanks for the info. Reading the description of WLP007, I can see how that may have helped. I already had a yeast cake of WLP001, so that's why I used that.

I think next time I'd try to add in another hop to help add some more tropical flavor to go along with the great citrus flavor in mine. I know it wouldn't match their recipe, but I don't care. I just want to try to mimic their awesome aroma anyway I can.

Did you use any acid to get your pH in range? What mash pH were you shooting for?

Your recipe and water profile is very similar to many IPAs and IIPAs I brew and I'd like to see if I can brew this as a variant with Simcoe and Amarillo since I have a ton of those hops on hand and need to use them up before I get some Citra from this years' harvest.

Awesome info too! I wish more recipe posters would include water info!
Thanks. I try :)

I added lactic. I was targeting 5.4, but hit 5.5.
 
So I'm planning on brewing this recipe again and I was thinking of what changes I could make, so I went back to the Surly site and, as mentioned above, now they only list 2 row and golden naked oats. So I was thinking I'd try brewing with only those. I was trying to figure out the amounts I wanted to use, but wasn't sure on the GNO, so I emailed Surly on their contact form and I had a response in less than an hour!! I specifically asked about the % of oats and this is what I got:

Hi Matt-
We use about 6% Golden Naked Oats and flaked oats.
We also use a product called (about 6%)Brewers Crystals, which is a glucose solids product that closely matches the sugar composition of wort ie;not all of the sugars are fermentable resulting in some residual sweetness.
Citra is used in the whirlpool and in both dry hop additions.Warrior is used in the boil for bittering only.
Hope this helps!
Cheers
I did clarify the ratio of the oats and he said:
6% total oats of your liking

So based on that, I think I'm going to go with:
88% 2 Row
3% GNO
3% flaked oats
6% brewers crystals

This should get me closer to the 5 SRM than using crystal malt in the recipe because my last attempt was great, but it was definitely darker. Based on my last attempt, I'd love to throw a small amount (~25%) of another hop (maybe amarillo), but I may just keep it all citra this time with the changed grain bill to see how it is. Though lately I've been sticking with dry yeasts for simplicity, so I may just go with S04 and maybe add in another hop to give me some extra flavor. Hmmm...
 
Thanks for the update. Keep us informed as to how it turns out. I'm not surprised that the grain bill is tweaked so often. Given the amount of hops, those small changes will not be noticeable to most people.
 
So I'm planning on brewing this recipe again and I was thinking of what changes I could make, so I went back to the Surly site and, as mentioned above, now they only list 2 row and golden naked oats. So I was thinking I'd try brewing with only those. I was trying to figure out the amounts I wanted to use, but wasn't sure on the GNO, so I emailed Surly on their contact form and I had a response in less than an hour!! I specifically asked about the % of oats and this is what I got:


I did clarify the ratio of the oats and he said:

So based on that, I think I'm going to go with:
88% 2 Row
3% GNO
3% flaked oats
6% brewers crystals

This should get me closer to the 5 SRM than using crystal malt in the recipe because my last attempt was great, but it was definitely darker. Based on my last attempt, I'd love to throw a small amount (~25%) of another hop (maybe amarillo), but I may just keep it all citra this time with the changed grain bill to see how it is. Though lately I've been sticking with dry yeasts for simplicity, so I may just go with S04 and maybe add in another hop to give me some extra flavor. Hmmm...



I came across this thread doing some research. Did 50/50 for GNO and flaked oats turn out ok? Any other recommendations after you tried this bill?
 

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