I've made this argument in many other threads before but ice is much more costly than water. It seems most efficient to use water until it becomes useless, then switch to ice.
CF Chiller vs. IC Chiller
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SumnerH
Well-Known Member
So you're going to buy tap hookups and longer hose to use during cooling to save a few cents per brew making ice? That seems penny-wise and pound foolish to me from a money perspective.
Plus, you'd lose some of the main advantages of a recirculating system once you go to this hybrid style. I don't need to mess with hookups, don't have hoses running across the kitchen, and don't lose access to my sink during chilling. It's one, small, self-contained setup that's cheap and easy.
And some of us don't have sinks. I brew outside and have a problem with water drainage. As in; it goes down the driveway. In the winter it freezes, summer it's finage time.
Otherwise your argument about pre-cooling with water is quite valid.
Otherwise your argument about pre-cooling with water is quite valid.
HomebrewJeff
Well-Known Member
Well, hopefully we have made it clear there is no perfect solution, each setup has it's pros and cons, and those are dependant on our own unique situation. What's perfect for some, may not be ideal for others.
Bobby's point is valid in that there is a relationship between the temp of the wort and the chill water, and how quickly it cools. When the wort is 212, having chill water at 65 vs. 45 isn't going to make much difference, unless you have a lot of ice. I don't have any where to store 20 lbs of ice, so I use tap water in the beginning, and then switch to recirculating. In the winter, when there is snow, I have a (nearly) unlimited supply of "ice" so it does make things go much faster.
Also, keep in mind, dumping 180 degree "waste" water back into recirculation, is simply slowing down the process. Instead of pumping 65degree water, maybe it's 72 now. Sure it will cool down, but it's also warming up the rest of the water. If that's all you can do, then that's great. Just realize it's not ideal, but you do what is right for your situation.
Bobby's point is valid in that there is a relationship between the temp of the wort and the chill water, and how quickly it cools. When the wort is 212, having chill water at 65 vs. 45 isn't going to make much difference, unless you have a lot of ice. I don't have any where to store 20 lbs of ice, so I use tap water in the beginning, and then switch to recirculating. In the winter, when there is snow, I have a (nearly) unlimited supply of "ice" so it does make things go much faster.
Also, keep in mind, dumping 180 degree "waste" water back into recirculation, is simply slowing down the process. Instead of pumping 65degree water, maybe it's 72 now. Sure it will cool down, but it's also warming up the rest of the water. If that's all you can do, then that's great. Just realize it's not ideal, but you do what is right for your situation.
I'll go as far as making all the concessions for those who don't have ready access to tap water during chilling. At the very least, if it were me, I'd have a 5 gallon bucket of cold tap water on hand and an empty bucket. Start your chilling with the icewater, collect the initial hot 5 gallons in the empty bucket, replenish spent icewater with 5 gallon bucket of cold water, then recirculate. This assumes an IC where the first 5 gallons of wastewater would be up near 200F.
Run a glycol filled heat exchanger. Doublle up your coils. On one line run one coil in the wort a second in the cold water batch, as well have a fan blowing thourgh a third flat "coil" (like back of a fridge).
sirsloop
Well-Known Member
or just pump boiling wort through it...
Some sanitizers don't need to be rinsed either.
I'd be very interested in seeing a showdown of chillers with various options simulating conditions for different brewers; CFC vs IC cold tap water, not so cold tap water, icewater pre-chiller, temp changes over time both wort and chill water outflow.
Someone needs to make up a big old spreadsheet with graphs and charts!
Only downside would be the possible end of these very entertaining discussions. Probably not though.
I would do it but I don't feel like dumping $50 in fuel to boil all that water. The other issue is that of small variables. If I did it across multiple real batches, you'd have to consider the slight change in tap water temps and wort gravity even if I were trying to keep those things constant.
The other problem is that both my IC and plate chiller are not standard sizes. The IC is 3/8" OD x 30' and the plate is 30-plate at 5" x 18" which is larger than a therminator. Not quite representative of what anyone else would have.
If I could get my hands on a shirron, a 25' CFC, a 25' x 3/8" IC, a 50' x 3/8" IC, and both of those in 1/2", It would make for fun video... Pick a date and show up with them and we'll have a party.
The other problem is that both my IC and plate chiller are not standard sizes. The IC is 3/8" OD x 30' and the plate is 30-plate at 5" x 18" which is larger than a therminator. Not quite representative of what anyone else would have.
If I could get my hands on a shirron, a 25' CFC, a 25' x 3/8" IC, a 50' x 3/8" IC, and both of those in 1/2", It would make for fun video... Pick a date and show up with them and we'll have a party.
Wish you didn't live so far away Bobby. I have a 25' CFC and a 25' x 3/8" IC AND I would help pay for the fuel. Hell I'll still help pay for the fuel if you want to experiment. I enjoy, and learn much, from your videos!
I can't find it at the moment, but didn't someone do an IC vs. plate chiller shootout video?
BarryNL
Well-Known Member
For me the main consideration with every choice in brewing in sanitation - nothing will ruin your beer as fast as the wrong organism. I went the IC route simply because maintaining sanitised conditions is so much easier - you just plonk the IC in 15 mins before flame out and that's it. With a CFC you have to flush it after use, hope you get it cleaned properly and hope there's nothing in there you can't see to infect your beer. Sure, the CFC has a number of benefits over IC but for ease of sanitation the IC wins hands down.
MikeG
Well-Known Member
I'm going IC for my first chiller and am ordering it. I'd love it build something but for right now time is an issue. Whenever I go AG and can get a pump Bobby M's video on building an CFC is something I'll use. 
I'm going IC for my first chiller and am ordering it. I'd love it build something but for right now time is an issue. Whenever I go AG and can get a pump Bobby M's video on building an CFC is something I'll use.
If you get a pump you can still use your ic and whirlpool your wort which will cool it much faster. Arguably as fast as a CFC.
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