Mold on/in beer can't hurt you: true?

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badmajon

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Is it true that mold and other gunk which can come up in beer can't hurt you, only add off flavors?
 
This is true. There is no bacteria that can hurt you that can live in beer. Bacteria and infections can make your beer taste horrible but, it will not harm you.
 
how do you figure, sports fan?

last i checked e.coli and listeria still make you sick... they can certainly get in beer if you are careless and the conditions are right. beer is not a sanitizer itself, so if its contaminated by something bad, you will be drinking something bad.
 
how do you figure, sports fan?

last i checked e.coli and listeria still make you sick... they can certainly get in beer if you are careless and the conditions are right. beer is not a sanitizer itself, so if its contaminated by something bad, you will be drinking something bad.

Last time I checked, neither pathogenic e.coli or listeria will grow in either beer wort and/or beer.
 
E. coli and other enterobacter will definitely grow in wort. Once beer reaches a certain pH e.coli dies. Prior to that point you could have a nice e. coli colony to sip on.

Mold will also grow on beer and some molds do produce neurotoxins. So drink those at your own peril.
 
Beer can hurt you as well. Yet people don't bother with not drinking beer. How exactly does mold/bacteria form in a closed system that only releases CO2 and doesn't intake anything in the fermentation process?

This is coming from someone who believes that all home-brewers at the very least dump boiling water over/in their equipment to help sanitize. Unless your big mac drips it's grease in your brew, where do these occurances happen in the process? I guess a mild case of bacteria is explainable, but e.coli and such harsh ones??? geez.
 
E.coli? Man, what else are you using your fermentor bucket for?

Enterobacteriaceae are not uncommon early on in fermentation, especially when doing wild ales. They get killed as the alcohol increases and the pH drops.
 
I'm not gonna throw a raw chicken leg into my fermentor and assume that my 5% ethanol solution is going to kill salmonella.... maybe it will... but I have to imagine even coolship users in belgium are using some common sense techniques to keep extra-dangerous bugs away.
 
Enterobacteria are present on many things and in many places, especially in our kitchens (where many of us brew/cool/bottle/etc/). E. coli and other enterobacter are common in spontaneous fermentation because they float in the air, hang out on stuff, etc. It happens. You come in contact with e. coli probably most times you enter a kitchen or bathroom.
 
Hi - just wanted to put this out there into internetland.

Handbook of Brewing
F.G. Priest

Chapter 16: Microbiology & Microbiological Control in the Brewery (start @ page 607) -> http://books.google.com/books?id=tiybndrispec&q=coli#v=onepage&q&f=false


"Beer is micobiologically stable and therefore not subject to the myriad spoilage organisms that can colonize most food or nonalcoholic beverages. It has been subject to exhasutive yeast growth and, therefore, like other fermented foods, it is largely resistant to further microbial development. Ther reasons for this are several:

1: The low ph inhibits most microorganisms
2: The high alcohol concentration is toxic to many microorganisms
3: The antiseptic action of hop alpha-acids is bacteriostatic to many bacteria, particularly gram-positive types
4: Only residual nutrients (...) are available as carbon sources

Despite these factors limiting microbial spoilage, there are various yeasts and bacteria that can flourish in beer, particularly if the storage conditions are poor and oxygen is allowed access. Fortunately, none of these organisms is pathogenic, so the only problem for the brewing microbiologist is consistency of the appearance and organoleptic qualities of the final product."

Enterobacteriaceae:

"...Fortunately, none of the pathogenic types, such as salmonella or shigella species, have been found in beer. the enterobacteria are facultative anerobes able to grow in the presence or absence of air, but they are inhibited by ethanol and low ph so are only responsible for beer spoilage in low alcohol products (<2% by vol) with a relatively high ph (>4.2)."

So with all this in mind, I would still be careful if there was Mold growth during the ferment or anytime after the boiling process. Molds produce mycotoxins, which have been related to everything from allergies, irritation, severe toxic reactions or even cancer. These mycotoxins are stable compunds which could remain in the beer all the way through to bottling and consumption.

Some folks might choose to drink a beer if there was 'a little mold' somewhere in the process, but this is an entirely personal choice based on the consumers judgement. Personally, I would probably toss any beer that got moldy... I'd hate to serve a homebrew to someone with sensitivity, it could be VERY bad for them.

Now about that raw chicken leg in the ferment - this I might do! :D

- Rip


*ps. Mycotoxins seem a little like the boogeyman in biology since there are still lots of unknowns and lots of questions about the compounds which some molds can produce. My new rule-of-thumb for homebrew: fuzzy green, black or yellow = dump it.
 
If your bottles aren't clean to start with, you'll still drink whatever mold you had sitting in the bottom of the bottle from when they were stored empty. So yes, although it won't 'grow' from your beer, there are other sources of mold.
 
The question is not whether it will grow in beer, but whether it will hurt you.

The things that grow in beer will only hurt your tastebuds. Unless you trip running to spit it out and crack your head.
 
Mold can grow directly 'from' or on your beer, even while fermenting actively... whodathunkit?

Not too many anerobic molds tho, so keep the air out!!

- Rip
 
Mold in beer can hurt you
Bacteria can not

This. No known human pathogen can survive in beer. That's fine and dandy... except not all molds are pathogenic, in fact there are thousands of different species of mold. Many types of mold are allergenic and some are toxigenic, meaning they give off harmful mycotoxins. These type of mold CAN live in/on your beer and yes, they CAN hurt you.
 
As a microbiology student I wonder if I could get the prof's permission to do a special project and test the 41 or so bacteria strains that we're working with this semester.

ETA:

So what pH does beer finish at, anyway, or what is the range? There are bacteria that survive acid environments. I don't know if many pathogenic ones do, but I'm sure there are.
 
+1 on a lack of harmful bacteria growing in beer. Some bacteria can survive/thrive in beer (notably Acetobacter), but luckily for us nothing harmful. Even if you started with something harmful like E. coli in the bottom of your fermenter bucket, the original colonies would either die, or have their growth restricted (bacteriostatic) and be basically harmless.

Fungul growth in beer is slightly different. While there are no significant causes for concern with mold in beer, the presence of mycotoxins in the starting grain can be a cause for concern. While everyone here seems to be rather convinced that all moulds produce mycotoxins, the truth is that there are only a few fungi that cause harm to humans. The most deadly on is obviously Aspergillus flavus, which produces the incredibly harmful aflatoxin (name comes from Aspergillus FLAvus). This is a common blue/green mould on bread/grains in general. If this infects your starting grain, you will have serious problems (like death!). A NIH funded study into aflatoxin contamination in homemade traditional beer (sorry, can't find the link right now), showed that if the sorghum had significant contamination the levels would be the same in the resulting beer. While the Aspergillus sp. could not grow in the beer, neither could the yeast metabolize the toxins and make them safe for us.

While the thought of mycotoxins in general may be quite dangerous, the first place I would look would not be my homebrew. Peanuts are often found to have aflatoxins from improper storage, so do many other nuts and several grains.
 
+1 on a lack of harmful bacteria growing in beer. Some bacteria can survive/thrive in beer (notably Acetobacter), but luckily for us nothing harmful. Even if you started with something harmful like E. coli in the bottom of your fermenter bucket, the original colonies would either die, or have their growth restricted (bacteriostatic) and be basically harmless.

Fungul growth in beer is slightly different. While there are no significant causes for concern with mold in beer, the presence of mycotoxins in the starting grain can be a cause for concern. While everyone here seems to be rather convinced that all moulds produce mycotoxins, the truth is that there are only a few fungi that cause harm to humans. The most deadly on is obviously Aspergillus flavus, which produces the incredibly harmful aflatoxin (name comes from Aspergillus FLAvus). This is a common blue/green mould on bread/grains in general. If this infects your starting grain, you will have serious problems (like death!). A NIH funded study into aflatoxin contamination in homemade traditional beer (sorry, can't find the link right now), showed that if the sorghum had significant contamination the levels would be the same in the resulting beer. While the Aspergillus sp. could not grow in the beer, neither could the yeast metabolize the toxins and make them safe for us.

While the thought of mycotoxins in general may be quite dangerous, the first place I would look would not be my homebrew. Peanuts are often found to have aflatoxins from improper storage, so do many other nuts and several grains.

+1 ABOUT 1 MILLION!!!!

That's another one that folks in fear stumble upon and like to throw up in our faces. Again it's so RARE in occurance, that we the homebrewers don't need to stress out about. I posted stuff about it on here before.

It's from a thread that ended up like this surely will be locked by the mods.

Revvy said:
This from Morebeer


Fusarium isn't a mold, it's a fungus;

It isn't created during fermentation, it's a disease that grows in the grain before and during malting;
The fungus is killed during the boil, but some of the mycotoxins already in the grain may partially survive the process;

...Notwithstanding all that, it does sound like Fusarium blight-infected grain is a potential source of toxicity in beer. I didn't see any articles detailing examples or statistics on incidence of toxicity, though. "Dose makes poison" for these sorts of things. Because Fusarium is so common, mycotoxins might always be present, but at concentrations too low to cause any observable effect in most people. Some people are particularly sensitive to mycotoxins and thus develop reactions to doses too low to bother the rest of us. Aspergillus in peanut butter is a well-known example.

So in summation... some grains that make beer may be infected and a specific toxin (mycotoxin) can survive the brewing process to some degree. This doesn't bother most people, but certain people have an allergy to mycotoxins and are sensitive enough to the amounts remaining in the beer to cause them to be unable to drink beer without repercussions.

Sounds like there needs to be a certain levl of sensitivity to fusarium to begin with.

Another thing, Figbash the article you reference happens to be from 1997.

A little more digging shows that 6 years later, on 7- 22-2003,


A team of scientists - including one from Michigan State University - has announced a genomic sequence for the rest of us: mapping the DNA of a grain fungus that wreaks havoc with beer brewing.
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/biowissenschaften_chemie/bericht-20081.html

And in an article published in 2007, titled;


Strategies for managing Fusarium head blight and deoxynivalenol accumulation in wheat

Abstract

Many mycotoxigenic fungi infect plant hosts and cause disease in the field. Therefore, control of field infection by these fungi is a critical step in managing mycotoxin accumulation in the harvested product. Fusarium graminearum, also known as Gibberella zeae, is the causal agent of Fusarium head blight (FHB), or scab, in cereals and is also the primary agent responsible for contamination of grain with deoxynivalenol (DON). Research efforts worldwide are devoted to the development of strategies to control field infection of wheat and barley by this pathogen. Strategies include the use of fungicides and biological control agents to protect flowering heads from infection. There is extensive effort in breeding for host resistance to infection and spread of the pathogen within the heads. Scientists are also seeking exogenous traits to introduce into cereals to enhance resistance. Cultural practices are also being examined, primarily as measures to reduce pathogen survival and inoculum production in crop residues. The successes and limitations of these strategies in the management of Fusarium head blight and deoxynivalenol are discussed.

ScienceDirect - http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=364210a1b4755a2532160d43d68ad531

So the more I read, the less I'm concerned.....it really seems that this is just another case of someone only having one part of the puzzle, and thinking it's the whole.....I appreciate your concern, but,

Since the OP, who this thread is supposed to be about anyway, had a mold pellicule growing on his beer, not a fungus.....this whole discussion really has no relevence to the situation at hand.

Especially in light of the fact, that for all we know (and I haven't looked enough to confirm this) the blight that you so greatly fear, more than likely has been controlled or greatly reduced, and probably did not infect his grain...and if it did it would also more than likely only harm people who were sensitive to mycotoxins...I'm going to go back to the idea that this is nothing more than ignorant (no offense intended we are all ignorant of something) hysteria.

And this whole sidebar, as I have several times said, bares little relevence to our friends tapeworm like mold

Yeah we've been down the Fusarium road on here befpre. ;) My chances of winning the lottery, finding out I'm the last surviving member of Spanish royality, and bedding twin redhead irish lasses in matching fishnets in the same day, are higher than anyone on here getting sick from Fusarium laced grain. :rolleyes:

Hoosbrewing said:
OK, so given my line of work I have access to Medline, which is a database of most scientific and medical journals published since 1955. A quick search for "beer" resulted in ~5000 journal articles. Another search of "pathogen" resulted ~53,000 articles, and a search of "infection" resulted ~600,000 articles. When I crossed beer with either or both of the other search terms, it gave me a total of 60 articles. Most of these were discussing risk factors for contracting HIV and/or hepatitis, or TB. A handful discussed infections in beer causing gushers, and there was the one study looking at levels of mycotoxins in beer. In that study, the levels reported were so low that they had to be verified by another testing apparatus, and there was no mention of what (if anything) the low levels would do to you if you drank them.

What I did not find, however, was any mention of any pathogen that causes harm found in beer.

FWIW.

I did the same search at work and came up with the same thing.
 
I wonder about Lysergic acids present in rye infected with ergot some days. Any uber mycologists care to weigh in? I recall some urban legend about Fosters lager and LSD.
 
Seems the toxic part of ergot will still be potent after it is beer
But the amounts are closely monitored in any food grain(unless you grow and malt your own rye)
 
Good point. Perhaps this was a concern back in the day but I havent heard of a modern case of ergotism in ages.
 
The question doesn't need to be answered as it has been answered thousands of time on here. The real question is can anyone point to a specific date or link where anyone was in any way infected or died from toxins in home brew. The chicken little's on here need to quit looking as the sky is falling. And go into the barn and watch the rain .
 
This thread brought up some really good points. I'm still hanging out with Chicken Little when it comes to MOLDY wert though.

Why, you ask?

The mitigating factors which render wert/beer 'safe' from bacterial contaminates just don't seem to apply as universally to simple Fungi (aka Mold). Some varieties can grow in low or high pH, can tolerate high osmotic pressure, produce stable toxins and doesn't really give a damn about low O2 or difficulty obtaining carbon. This isn't true when considering bacteria like E coli - thank god. But in my estimation, moldy beer really seems to have the possibility of giving you the ****s, make you break out in a rash or maybe cause anaphylactic shock (if you forgot to buy a lottery ticket).

Uncle Sam says: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/molds_on_food/

Esplain' me some science to prove that info wrong and I'll drink a moldy beer to celebrate. :mug:


- M

ps. Fusarium is a supply-side issue in materials, not the same as production-side contamination of the final product. Fusarium won't grow in Wert/Beer, so scratch that one off the list.
 
This thread brought up some really good points. I'm still hanging out with Chicken Little when it comes to MOLDY wert though.

Why, you ask?

The mitigating factors which render wert/beer 'safe' from bacterial contaminates just don't seem to apply as universally to simple Fungi (aka Mold). Some varieties can grow in low or high pH, can tolerate high osmotic pressure, produce stable toxins and doesn't really give a damn about low O2 or difficulty obtaining carbon. This isn't true when considering bacteria like E coli - thank god. But in my estimation, moldy beer really seems to have the possibility of giving you the ****s, make you break out in a rash or maybe cause anaphylactic shock (if you forgot to buy a lottery ticket).

Uncle Sam says: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/molds_on_food/

Esplain' me some science to prove that info wrong and I'll drink a moldy beer to celebrate. :mug:


- M

ps. Fusarium is a supply-side issue in materials, not the same as production-side contamination of the final product. Fusarium won't grow in Wert/Beer, so scratch that one off the list.


No real science...just some plain reasoning from a scientist. We all know (and the USDA website also states) that molds are dangerous because of the spores they produce (irritate respiratory track, may cause anaphylatic shock in rare cases) and the toxin they release.

As for the spores: if mold is in your beer and you don't disturb the mold, you avoid this potential danger. For example, if you have a glob of mold floating on the surface of your beer and you rack the beer from underneath it without disturbing, you'll probably be OK.

As for the toxin: it's probably all about dosage. The glob of mold in my example above probably will not produce enough toxin (if it is indeed toxic) to make someone sick. However, if you left that beer sit for another 2-3 years and the entire bucket/carboy becomes filled with mold, yeah I'd dump that one.

This assumes I actually have a beer that has mold in it. I have yet to have one. I had some yeast slurry that had developed some mold spot in the neck of the container once, but I used the yeast anyway...no problems and I believe I still have slurries of that same yeast I continue to use. No mold (yet).

On the grand scale of all the things I can worry about, this one falls pretty low on my list....maybe in the general vicinity of the zombie apocalpyse and meteors hitting earth. :mug:
 
It seems to me that it's far more likely that a homebrewer will create a batch of beer with lots of acetaldehyde due to poor fermentation, and an appreciable quantity of that surely isn't easy on the body.
 
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