I like the 4th comment down, personally. Though it's sweet that e'erybody's talking about cloning HT.
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theveganbrewer
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Anyone read Mitch Steele's IPA book? I just found it at my library and gave it a read. He mentions Kimmich a couple of times and brings up Conan a few times in the book to my surprise. There wasn't a recipe for HT in there, but two of John's beers, well one from the Vermont pub, and another from the Alchemist. On the Alchemist brew, they said to underpitch, 6 million cells per.
cdubbaya
Well-Known Member
theveganbrewer said:
Reading it now, I noticed the mention of Kimmich too. I was hoping for some insight to HT but it's just the recipe for their black IPA.
Coff
Well-Known Member
I've been looking to get this book anyway but maybe it'll have to be sooner than later.
I am now past high Krausen as it has began to fall but there is still a lot of activity bouncing about in the carboy. I plan to take a reading at 7 days and see where it is at, and hopefully I will keg it at 20 days to crash cool and remove more yeast then back to room temp for that first dry hop.
I am now past high Krausen as it has began to fall but there is still a lot of activity bouncing about in the carboy. I plan to take a reading at 7 days and see where it is at, and hopefully I will keg it at 20 days to crash cool and remove more yeast then back to room temp for that first dry hop.
SkinnyPete
Well-Known Member
Has anyone been following the sort of reanalysis of whirlpool additions? I've been listening to a lot of podcasts and reading a lot of articles about hop utilization and the science behind it. Tasty from The Brewing Network has been doing it a lot and says that when you add a flameout and perform a 15-30 minute extended whirlpool, it actually imparts about the same bitterness of a 20 minute boil addition. Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker says he's getting 22% utilization of pellet hops and half the total IBUs all from the whirlpool (realize it will be different for the home brewer for many reasons). Mitch Steele also talks about throwing a ton in the whirlpool for (I think) the new Enjoy By IPA and getting decent IBU. And of course everyone is agreement that it imparts a different profile, much higher aroma, and flavor than late boil additions. I don't know - I was planning on brewing my next clone attempt (the first with Conan and HopShot) an hour ago. But, now I'm toying with doing a 60 minute hopshot, just a small 5 minute addition, and pretty much move everything else to a whirlpool for 30 minutes. Might do a 3 gallon test batch so this experiment isn't too expensive.
Anyone ever play with moving most of the flavor/aroma additions to a whirlpool?
Anyone ever play with moving most of the flavor/aroma additions to a whirlpool?
I've done IPAs with a FW and a knockout addition whirlpooled for ~20-30 mins, nothing else. Big aroma and flavor, can't speak for actual bitterness since I got decent IBU from FW or 60 min adds. It's a good technique for IPA IMO, I'm doing about 2/3s of my late hopping in a knockout whirlpool in my Heady attempt.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I have been following it in great detail and researching some papers from Malowicki & Shellhammer and some guys from Munich on hop utilization by temperature. There was a paper released in 2012 on the topic with some new information. It only contains data down to 90 Celsius though. I am still trying to track down the entire text of the M&S paper, but I have read analysis of their publication by others, but not the actual thing, it's not for sale.
Basically, the idea the assumption brewers have that 0 minute hops don't add bitterness is wrong. They do. As temperature goes down, isomerization decreases, but it still happens. I have read some reports saying for every 19 degrees of loss, the utilization halves. Add to that, what I've read is that the colder you go, the more the degradation of isomerized alpha acids occurs. So the two effects start counteracting themselves somewhere around 175 or so. That is one piece of data I haven't seen yet, the temperature at which degradation equals isomerization. Jamil says it's around 175, which makes sense, I would think based on the equations it'd be around 170. I have found the formula, but don't know how to calculate it. I have seen the resulting charts from the equation, but like I said, only good down to 90C.
We don't know if Kimmich calculates 120IBUs and accounts for the whirlpool hops, or if he counts 120 without them. I assume he calculates with them, since he is so into late additions and whirlpool. Lab measures 75-80 out of the can so I think it'd be a lot higher if he was saying he put in 120IBUs before whirlpool. Then we see the difference because of loss to the yeast and transfers and such.
Assuming 120IBUs calculated including whirlpool, I have a few thoughts on splitting up the hop additions for HT. I think it could be along the lines of one of these:
Hop extract= 65 IBU, 5 min= 20 IBU, Whirlpool= 35 IBU.
You have to account for some minor IBU additions from the existing hops on top of the whirlpool addition too, so that 5 minute addition will continue contributing some bitterness in the whirlpool too. So my 5 minute addition was only 15 IBU, but I calculated I got ~20 IBU out of it because beersmith doesn't count whirlpool.
I was tempted to go to 70 IBU on the hop extract, just to reduce trub, and I might next time depending on how blistering the bitterness comes out. I'm putting my HT into the keg now, so I'll have a taste and do my final dry hop before carbonating.
Basically, the idea the assumption brewers have that 0 minute hops don't add bitterness is wrong. They do. As temperature goes down, isomerization decreases, but it still happens. I have read some reports saying for every 19 degrees of loss, the utilization halves. Add to that, what I've read is that the colder you go, the more the degradation of isomerized alpha acids occurs. So the two effects start counteracting themselves somewhere around 175 or so. That is one piece of data I haven't seen yet, the temperature at which degradation equals isomerization. Jamil says it's around 175, which makes sense, I would think based on the equations it'd be around 170. I have found the formula, but don't know how to calculate it. I have seen the resulting charts from the equation, but like I said, only good down to 90C.
We don't know if Kimmich calculates 120IBUs and accounts for the whirlpool hops, or if he counts 120 without them. I assume he calculates with them, since he is so into late additions and whirlpool. Lab measures 75-80 out of the can so I think it'd be a lot higher if he was saying he put in 120IBUs before whirlpool. Then we see the difference because of loss to the yeast and transfers and such.
Assuming 120IBUs calculated including whirlpool, I have a few thoughts on splitting up the hop additions for HT. I think it could be along the lines of one of these:
Hop extract= 65 IBU, 5 min= 20 IBU, Whirlpool= 35 IBU.
You have to account for some minor IBU additions from the existing hops on top of the whirlpool addition too, so that 5 minute addition will continue contributing some bitterness in the whirlpool too. So my 5 minute addition was only 15 IBU, but I calculated I got ~20 IBU out of it because beersmith doesn't count whirlpool.
I was tempted to go to 70 IBU on the hop extract, just to reduce trub, and I might next time depending on how blistering the bitterness comes out. I'm putting my HT into the keg now, so I'll have a taste and do my final dry hop before carbonating.
theveganbrewer
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NuclearRich
Well-Known Member
Intersting enough paper. I just wonder who boils at 130C? (266F), and who boils for 400 minutes?
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Well, it's just part of the testing. They ran the formula through some software that resulted in those graphs and limits. I think the purpose of the research was to allow breweries to use less hops to reach the necessary IBUs.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
From a research paper I am reading, potential reason HT has so many particles, a new technique of dry hopping:
NuclearRich
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Isnt this describing a hopback? Relatively new but also just as relatively popular
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I think so, it's a completely closed system, correct? They are saying research has shown that if you dry hop in a CO2 purged tank that can allow the co2 to escape, you'll lose most of the aroma characteristics. It's got to be closed. I'm not sure yet how dry hopping in a keg, then purging to get the bag out later would effect the brew. Might be worthwhile to dry hop in one keg, then do a sealed transfer to the final keg under pressure.
NuclearRich
Well-Known Member
Yeah I believe its an inline container for hops to be washed over as the beer is bottled. Or any other transfer, but to bottling seems to make the most sense
I think one dry hopping technique that really helps with the aroma is rousing the hops during that time. In Mitch Steele's book, the El Jefe recipe says to rouse the hops 2-3 times with co2 during a week. Vinnie from Russian River also uses this technique described in the Zymurgy recipe for Pliny here - https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/6351/doubleIPA.pdf Of course without a conical you would have to resort to swirling your container....
NuclearRich
Well-Known Member
Think you could hook up an aeration stone to the inside of the airlock/bung of a standard bucket/carboy, and hook that up to CO2? You would need some sort of a 2-way valve so you could switch from the airlock to the CO2. ...No wait... you would probably still need venting through an airlock while you opened the CO2 line. A double drilled stopper/lid, one line for airlock, one for the aeration line, with a valve to prevent backflow during normal fermentation.
I think its possible if it is really a useful part of the process.
Maybe you could dry hop/secondary in a bottling bucket/better bottle and use the valve on the bottom to push CO2 through.
NuclearRich
Well-Known Member
good point. I personally dont have any of those. I attach my bottling wand to a racking cane
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I am dryhopping in a keg and using the liquid out post as my co2 post, pushing co2 through from the bottom of the keg up. I am only dry hopping 48 hours as doing this gets all the aroma out in 24-48 hours.
SkinnyPete
Well-Known Member
theveganbrewer, we actually did very similar things. My attempt yesterday was calculated at 42 IBUs at 60min with hopshot (5ml in 6gal batch). 20 IBUs at 5min, and 55 IBUs in the whirlpool.
I used Tasty's recommendation on setting a 30 minute whirlpool to a 20 minute hop addition in beersmith. I have no way of knowing if that is accurate, so the 55IBUs in the whirlpool is my best guess according to what Tasty recommends and I don't argue with Tasty.
To your point about the 175 degree magic number, there is a 'BeerSmith Home Brewing' podcast from May, 2012 with James Altwies, the president of Gorst Valley Hops, entitled "Hop Chemistry". Speaking about how to get the best aroma from a flame out addition, he did say to chill the wort to between 170-180 and then start a whirlpool. That you get the most aroma at that temperature. So, 175 may be a good spot to play with as far as whirlpooling goes. You can get from boiling to 175 pretty quickly, stop chilling and start a whilrpool.
I used Tasty's recommendation on setting a 30 minute whirlpool to a 20 minute hop addition in beersmith. I have no way of knowing if that is accurate, so the 55IBUs in the whirlpool is my best guess according to what Tasty recommends and I don't argue with Tasty.
To your point about the 175 degree magic number, there is a 'BeerSmith Home Brewing' podcast from May, 2012 with James Altwies, the president of Gorst Valley Hops, entitled "Hop Chemistry". Speaking about how to get the best aroma from a flame out addition, he did say to chill the wort to between 170-180 and then start a whirlpool. That you get the most aroma at that temperature. So, 175 may be a good spot to play with as far as whirlpooling goes. You can get from boiling to 175 pretty quickly, stop chilling and start a whilrpool.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Sounds good, are you drinking yours yet? I got down to 175 real quick because the last time I did a whirlpool it was a lot hotter outside. I had to have the burner on the entire whirlpool to keep temps up and was between 175-180 the entire 30 minutes.
I have found a wealth of actual scientific data on the subject of isomerization. Will be posting on my blog soon and will update here when I get the post done. There may be enough information there to actually come fairly conclusive figure for whirlpool isomerization. I'm going to go back in my process and recalculate the IBUs so I can have an idea what I'm working with final product. I did a taste going into the last dry hop and it is not bitter enough.
SkinnyPete
Well-Known Member
I kept the wort spinning for 15. At the end of 15, it was still at 197. I let it sit for another 15, and after 30 it was at 178. Not tasting yet. It's only been in the bucket for 36 hours. I wonder if mine will be a little more bitter than yours since I was able to keep my temp higher.
I shot for 6 gallons because I've lost so much to the hops in previous attempts. I ended up with close to 6 gallons because my efficiency was somehow better than normal and I used the hopshot. So, I put 5 gallons in the bucket and about 3/4 of a gallon in a 1 gallon jug. I used my 2nd generation conan yeast (after starter) in the bucket, and I threw the last of my 1st generation conan (no starter) into the 1 gallon bucket. I noticed such a big difference in aroma between the first yeast that I cultured right from the can, and this 2nd generation yeast that I wanted to compare them...and I certainly didn't want to throw away wort.
laxsoccerguy
Well-Known Member
This has me thinking -
do you bag your hops when you're dry hopping in the keg? And, do you transfer the beer over to another keg before serving?
Thanks for all of this knowledge guys!
ben
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I purge the keg with CO2, add the hops loose, then rack from primary into the keg. Let it sit for 2 days, bubbling up co2 via the dip tube every 6 hours or so. You only want to hit it with a few separate seconds of CO2, you don't want to scrub out the aroma. When it's done and you crash cool, you can lay it on it's side gently, with the gas-in on the bottom. Then push the beer out the gas-in side by putting gas on the diptube. Beer goes into serving keg.
I use the technique from EdWort, I didn't originally do it for dryhopping, but had gotten a clogged tube for other reasons when I first started kegging and found his solution.
Get about 10 feet of beer line and put black ball connectors on each end.
Have your empty keg, chilled, clean,sanitized, purged. Vent both kegs, then charge them to about 5 psi.
Connect both beer lines and your CO2 to your full keg. The beer should not flow as the pressure is equalized. Then gently crack the relief valve on the empty keg. The beer will flow gently over to the empty keg with minimum foam.
Works like a champ for me. The condensation on the outside helps to show how full it is.
I use this method all the time to transfer brew to one of my 2.5 or 3 gallon kegs to take to parties.
I use the technique from EdWort, I didn't originally do it for dryhopping, but had gotten a clogged tube for other reasons when I first started kegging and found his solution.
Get about 10 feet of beer line and put black ball connectors on each end.
Have your empty keg, chilled, clean,sanitized, purged. Vent both kegs, then charge them to about 5 psi.
Connect both beer lines and your CO2 to your full keg. The beer should not flow as the pressure is equalized. Then gently crack the relief valve on the empty keg. The beer will flow gently over to the empty keg with minimum foam.
Works like a champ for me. The condensation on the outside helps to show how full it is.
I use this method all the time to transfer brew to one of my 2.5 or 3 gallon kegs to take to parties.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
do you notice much aroma from only 2 days of dry hopping? what temp are you dry hopping at?
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Yes, if you rouse the hops and dry hop at 60+ degrees, hop aroma will begin dissipating after 48 hours. Research has shown that optimal exposure time is 24 hours under optimal dry hopping but the Co2 rousing technique is not quite ideal flow, so I go with 48 hours.
SkinnyPete
Well-Known Member
But, how does that leave the hops from the full keg behind? Does it not get clogged when transferring? I'm missing something, aren't I?
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
It's worked for me twice. I have read some people put a stainless steel mesh filter over the tube to keep from clogging. I have one but haven't used it yet. I think the movement is slow enough that it doesn't clog. You can look more into it, it's something Tasty does, that's where I first learned of it.
Just to give everyone a heads up, BA recently implemented an algorithm on their website to count "had" beer ratings alongside the "full review" ratings.
Why do you care? Because Heady Topper is now the #1 beer in the world according to their website as of 1:16 PM EST!
Why do you care? Because Heady Topper is now the #1 beer in the world according to their website as of 1:16 PM EST!
somedudefromguam
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I wonder what a single, MASSIVE hopping at flame off (or apparently the magic 175 degrees) would do to the bitterness. I think I am going to give this a try right now....
This will be a one gallon all grain batch.
I am open to any recipe ideas/ ingredients.
Grain bill...anything, probably pale malt and 5-10% crystal malt
Hops, I have Simcoe, Zeus, Cascade, Chinook, Amarillo, Crystal, open to any combinations. I will probably add about 2 oz at 170 degrees. This should be equivalent to 20 ozs in a 10 gallon batch. Should I add more?
This will be a one gallon all grain batch.
I am open to any recipe ideas/ ingredients.
Grain bill...anything, probably pale malt and 5-10% crystal malt
Hops, I have Simcoe, Zeus, Cascade, Chinook, Amarillo, Crystal, open to any combinations. I will probably add about 2 oz at 170 degrees. This should be equivalent to 20 ozs in a 10 gallon batch. Should I add more?
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
A 30 minute stand at 175 is equivelent to roughly a 7 minute hop addition
somedudefromguam
Well-Known Member
According to promash: 15.6 aa hop addition @7 mins= 139 IBUs. I don't think I will experience that. I honestly don't know what to expect, I was thinking along the lines of 50 IBUs. It goes aganist all brewlogic and all the books that I have read about hop utilization, yesterday I would have told anybody that 0 minute hops give no bitterness. Now I am questioning everything....
I was not planning on sitting at 175 for long, I usually get the wort to drop to 100 within 15 minutes. Probably only be at 175 for less than 5 minutes. Should I go longer?
Any input is great!
mewithstewpid
Well-Known Member
I only do 60 min, 0 min, and dry hop additons on my hoppy brews.
for the 0 min i let stand for 20-30 minutes, but i drop the temperature to below 180 before i add the hops to reduce isomerization.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
First things first, the widespread belief that 0 minute hops add no bitterness (iso-alpha-acids) is wrong. Hops can become isomerized(add bitterness) all the way down in the 160's, although at that temp, exposure must be for a very extended period of time. All the books and beer brewing software are wrong. This is still in the beginning stages, but breweries are starting to realize they get isomerization from the whirlpool, like Firestone Walker.
Keep us updated of what you brew and how it tastes. Keep good notes and keep track of temperatures so we can share in your experiment. Remember that the closer you get to 213, the more isomerization occurs.
somedudefromguam
Well-Known Member
gcdowd
Well-Known Member
My buddy just texted me a pic of him drinking some Heady, he is at Alchemist as we speak. I'm so jealous.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Was that in addition to hopshot or bittering at 60 minutes?
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Tell him to ask lots of questions and figure out if they use Amarillo and what temp they ferment at.
I ask about the Amarillo because I have tapped my clone attempt and it's not quite there. It's very tropical, with mango notes, but it's lacking a sweetness I normally attribute to Amarillo. I took a sample off the tap and bottled it with my bowie bottler. In the bottle was the equivalent of 0.5 ounces of hops per 5 gallons of Amarillo. I dry hopped for 24 hours and it's what I consider very close to the original.
I will brew this again this weekend, and am going to increase simcoe, decrease columbus, remove nugget, and add amarillo.
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