Great Results apparently wrong method

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Terry08

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I have spent time reading how to posts and would like to know why my method achieves great results when according to the experts it should fail.

The one thing I do do correctly is sanitation.

1. I have a lead through the grommet of the fermentation drum which allows a foot of air space above the wort. No airlock.

2. In Australia the temperatures change drasticly and other than in winter when I use a fish tank heater (aka the lead through the grommit) my last brew fermented in 40deg c temperatures.

3. I did change to use a secondary.

4. I use beer kits with a kilo of Dextrose, do not bulk prime and use sucrose to prime each bottle.

I keep reading of beer oxidising and have read of dissapation etc but after brewing an estimated 15000 litres over 30 years with bottled beer stored for over 2 years in some cases (Caps limit storage) I have never experianced oxidation although I did have one bottle break which could have been by doubling the prime.

I still believe that as Air can can only absorb a very small amount of CO2 and as CO2 is heavier than air it will sink to the bottom and prevent oxidising. I read that purging of vessals prevents oxidisation which I do believe is insurance. I do not purge my drums and pouring ingrediants into the fermentor and later the secondary has never caused a problem.

Wanting to check this out in some way I thought of this test. I filled my secondary with a nice flavoursome ale kit by Tooheys. Lit a match and lowered the lit match slowly to the liquid. It went out about 50mm 2" from liquid I tried this several times. The last time it went out about 75mm from the liquid. To me this explains why in all these years I have never had issues with oxygen contamination.

To add to this when I started to brew closed fermentors where not available and I used a garbage bin, open fermentation with a muslin over the top to keep flys out. To bottle I used a funnel and scoop always using sugar. Did try sultanas, grapes and honey to prime but that was a bummer.

An interesting trial I conducted once and may again. I brewed a batch using 25% of the water and fermented and stored the concentrate in old wine flagons. I consumed the 6 litres over some time by using as a beer cordial by adding chilled soda water. The result was quite good but slightly inferior to beer bottled correctly.

So, I am not disputing the collective knowledge here but consider this, for the thousands like me who do not purge their fermenter and leave the ferment sometimes as long as 4 weeks and at the end of fermentation air pressure works both ways and even with an airlock air can be sucked in. In fact some of the fermentation drums cannot be sealed perfectly making a airlock iffy.

As far as I know air absorbs CO2 not the otherway around. If CO2 absorbed Oxygen we would not brew using the equipment we have at the moment.

CO2 is blamed for global warming but it is the food of plants otherwise we would suffercate, No CO2, No Plants, No us. heavy, need more beer
 
As far as I know air absorbs CO2 not the otherway around. If CO2 absorbed Oxygen we would not brew using the equipment we have at the moment.

This is the main part where your logic is faulty. "Air" is just a term used for a collection of gasses, it doesn't absorb other gasses or get absorbed into other gasses. Diffusion of gasses WILL let oxygen in, which will oxidize your beer.

From what I know of the brewing community in Australia, though, the "kit and kilo" beer may be more than enough to cover up any effects of oxidation. Let alone fermentation at that high of temp. Unless those kits have improved remarkably lately, they aren't known for making much beyond a drinkable beer.
 
Do your beers win competitions? It's all well and good to say that your beer tastes great...to you.
 
Do your beers win competitions? It's all well and good to say that your beer tastes great...to you.

I've never entered a competition either. Not competing doesn't mean I don't make award winning beer.
 
Do your beers win competitions? It's all well and good to say that your beer tastes great...to you.

I totally agree. You need awards on your beer to prove that it's good. Miller Lite has them displayed proudly on every can. :rolleyes:
 
LOL..you fellas know what I meant. At the end of the day, it's *your* beer and you're the only one that needs to be impressed. However, just because *you* think your beer tastes good, doesn't mean it's anywhere near as good as it could taste.

Proper technique ensures consistency.
 
1. I have a lead through the grommet of the fermentation drum which allows a foot of air space above the wort. No airlock.

2. In Australia the temperatures change drasticly and other than in winter when I use a fish tank heater (aka the lead through the grommit) my last brew fermented in 40deg c temperatures.

3. I did change to use a secondary.

4. I use beer kits with a kilo of Dextrose, do not bulk prime and use sucrose to prime each bottle.
I am not sure why doing these things make you such a brewing 'rebel'! :D

You aren't really bucking the convention much. You should read a little deeper here on what other people are doing to defy the conventional wisdom.

Although, I must say that if you can ferment at 40 deg C (104 F) without getting any off flavours, that is indeed an accolade. I don't know of anybody that could pull that one off, even with some very specialized yeasts.
 
Alright, I'll be the only one on here so far to not bash your methods and say well done!

Sounds like you've rediscovered the art and fun of beer-making, and if it works for you, it works for me. I'm glad you don't listen to all these scientists on the board :D
 
when according to the experts it should fail.

Other than the 40C, I don't see anything in your approach that would constitute a fail. Oxidation is very rare, even in beers that have been stored a long time. You're making a beer that you enjoy using basic techniques. Most people on this board use different techniques to make different beers. None of the beers I normally make can be made using your method, that doesn't make it wrong.
 
I have not won awards but have taken my beer to many parties and here in Australia most blokes are particular about their beer. Being a hot country a lot is consumed, usually a lighter crystal clear beer. If there was any thing wrong, friend or not they would not hold back on comments. But yes it is only my word for it.

Now as far as brewing in high temperatures all I can say is the kits I use are made by Tooheys, Coopers and other brewers in Australia so all I can say is maybe they make the kit to suit the conditions here. I am no expert in creating a Wort I only use what I buy.

Last night I enjoyed a couple of Lagers a month in the bottle, I know the temperature when brewed just before Christmas, the weather was changeble 23 night 30+ day.

Being a dart player for so many years gave me a taste of all types as I play sides representing many clubs and pubs.

If anyone has trouble with their beer all I can say is I am sorry for you. Come to Australia and try the real deal. My favourite commercial beer is a Tooheys Draught preferable in a bottle. It is simular to a cheaper Supermarket branded kit I sometimes use. I love4 beer always have and consume at least 2 x 750ml bottles each night in summer.

That is why I take on board what is said but my results do not show the contamination I may experiance and the reason I am sceptable about the fears quoted. I do believe in sanitation of equipment however.
 
Cooper's Ale (Cooper's)
All-purpose dry ale yeast. It produces a complex woody, fruity beer at warm temperatures. More heat tolerant than other strains, 65-75¡F; recommended for summer brewing. Medium attenuation and flocculation.

104F is still way out of bounds, but I think Cooper's is one of the hotter strains of yeast out there, except maybe a saison. You could age some of the character out too.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-4-1.html
 
I think he proves my position that it is very easy to make good beer. If it wasn't our ancestors wouldn't have been able to make it 3500 years ago.

I see many varying ideas and opinions about how best to make beer, but I see very little evidence of undrinkable beer. Which I have made by the way. But I learned something from that, and to me it's the education I am getting as much as it is the beer.
 
I don't think that oxidiation is hard to get. Not everyone is as sensitive to the taste. I have tasted quite a few commerical oxidized beers, and breweries do everything to avoid it. I have made some very good beers that have had oxidation show up around the 1 year point. Not to say that yours WERE/ARE oxidized, but it is something to take seriously.
 
Nup no oxidation. I like fine wines and those in Australia are great. I can detect any off taste. Even took a batch of commercial beer back as it had an off taste. I only bought it to try a new well touted type.

I believe if you look after the correct sanitation of the equipment you cannot make a bad beer. I do believe that when a brewery makes a kit it is trialed and chemists design the formular. Not so when someone goes it alone adding a pinch of this and a boiled quantity of that, blaming oxidation is easy. My first attempt using grains, specialty malt etc made beer but not to the quality I drink now.

When I started this thread I opened a stubbie and covered it to prevent pests. It is in the sideway I have sampled it. It is flat as a tack but other than very warm it has been hot here. after several days it still has not spoiled. Alcoholic strengh about 4.7.

It will spoil eventually but there again maybe the bugs here are more forgiving to a mates beer, maybe that is the reason.

Getting a TAD system soon to reduce work in bottling. I will not go to full kegs as I like beer to much.

If it was not sticky I would bath in it
 
All I can say is that I boil 2 litres of water, pour the kit contents into the fermenter with 1kg of Dextrose and add an extra 22 litres of tap water. I have reacently started to add 1 cup of powdered corn syrup and the strainings of 50grms of a suitable grain that has been steeped by adding boiling water to it. I add the yeast that comes with the kit.

It then sits in our screen room for a week before transfering to a secondary. Have a look at average temperatures just south west of Sydney. The instructions do advise a temperature of 25c but hey my wife will not give me house room for it. Have not told her of the TAD system coming. I have a conditioned beer waiting to bottle/TAD but it will have to wait another couple of weeks. To keep I added a couple of spoons of sugar to create more CO2. I am not totally of my wagon. I always taste prior to bottling and this real ale from Coopers is great cannot wait to have it on tap. Actually brewing is not a hobby I only do it as I cannot afford the commercial type. I get 30 750ml long necks per brew at $0.50aud/ bottle commercially would cost $3.75/ bottle. a no brainer as long as the quality is there. What can I say it works for me.

After all that is my point, CO2 protects
 
Way to go man, glad your system works!

I agree with the first response here...the only flaw, (take this from someone with degrees in Chemistry and Chemical Engineering, if that means anything), is that CO2 is COMPLETELY soluble in "air". "Air" is not lighter than CO2, (although its respective components are). Air is a mix of O2 and N2, and the fact is, given time, CO2 will diffuse into that mix. There is NOTHING stopping it. This isn't like dropping a bowling ball into water, and having the bowling ball sink because it's "heavier"....it's more along the lines of pouring vodka into water, (which have the same solubility as CO2 and "air"), and hoping that they don't mix. Or like a "Black and Tan". They may form separate layers at first, but leave that glass out for a few hours, and you'll return to find one single, homogeneous layer.

But, while I take exception with your science, I can't argue with you getting good results. As long as you, (and others, but they matter much less), like your beer, keep it up!!!
 
Hmm! I did a bit of chemistry was a part of my engineering course. I battled with reactions or mostly the lack of them.

I will not argue with you I do not have that knowledge what I have just done after reading your post. I mixed Bicarb and citric acid and let the gas produced flow into a glass. I did the match test and it went out. I covered the glass(not sealed) to prevent gusts from removing the CO2. I will try in a few days to see if matches still extinguish.

As far as I know any spirit has a totall affinity with water so it will mix. I always thought that air could only absorb about 0.03% CO2. You are saying that if the same amount of air and CO2 are introduced into a container then the air would consist of 50% CO2.

If that is the case why does my open fermentation work when air can filltrate my fermentor. There is a bit more to it I feel. I will approach our CSIRO with the question. I am now after the full explanation of the contamination process
 
Gases can mix in any ratio, Terry. Venus' atmosphere is almost 97% CO2. An open fermenter will have a 'safe' CO2 blanket if it isn't disturbed and as long as it is fermenting, more CO2 will be coming out of the beer and renewing the blanket.
 
Actually I always thought but could be wrong that if it were not for grass plants and trees there would be no way for CO2 to be converted via photosynthesis and Earth would be mainly CO2 same as Mars. (No trees, Plants,Grass). I think gravity and the escape velocity has something to do with gas composition. Our gravity allows Oxygen to stay captured and not escape.

That is why my logic twisted as it is believes that Venus with its great % of CO2 pushes Oxygen high in the atmosphere untill the atoms just get sucked into space. Something to do with the volitility of Oxygen compared with say Helium. something to do with the mean excitation energy the lowest obviously being hydrogen the first gas that would be blown off.
Jupitor throws my augument out of the water but that could be as it is simular to the sun and may constantly produce Hydrogen. Its gravity prevents most gases from escaping


:off:
The rain forests being destroyed at the rate they are will increase the CO2 level. Intrestingly CO2 is pumped into some green houses to improve plant growth. The Earth will renew itself when we expire. Sobering thought need more beer.

As I said my logic can be twisted but I truely believe there are many factors why Earth sustains life and plant photosynthsis and gravity is the main contributers. Maybe one day the breweries will move to Venus, just imagine all water would be carbonated.
 
Having posted on Grumpy's site a number of years ago, I'm familiar with strange practices for Aussie brewing giving the weather you guys get. The K&K seems to still be alive and well as it is here in Nfld.
My experiences with them were less than what I get from all grain now. Sure I made drinkable beer, but barely.

It is great to see that your experiences are a lot better than mine and to see you enjoying your beer for as long as you have.

The only thing I see also is the temperature which you say you ferment at. You must get strange flavours associated with brewing at such high temperatures. If one looks at the profiles given for any yeast other than some of the funky styles, then they say no higher than 75*f for the most part. I dunno.

Still if you say you make good beer that you and your mates enjoy, then who am I to argue with you?
 
For 9 months of the year the weather is perfect for brewing but going by a brew I now have waiting to bottle. It tastes flat as good as any. I cannot explain it, I just accept.
I find if I chew a bit of cheese It improves my ability to taste the beer better. I know bad beer. I have a mate who goes overboard with extract brewing he is absolutly paranoid even steralizing new caps which I never do. It is a wonder he does not steralize the yeast. He does not believe in Kits says thats for begginers and that the taste is what true beer should taste like. Nothing like commercial varieties. My results he puts down to begginers luck. All 15000 litres, come on.
He does get a better head than I do but at what cost.

There is a plus side, when the heats on the yeast really goes to town, fermentation is just about over in 72 hours. I have ordered a TAD system so I will satisfy the aurgument and get the beer sitting in a protective CO2 environment.

The beer type most popular in dear old OZ is the light coloured full strengh(4+%) such as Tooheys, Carlton, Boag/Cascade(Tassie beer)The best, due to the pristine water in Tasmania. The Japanese have just taken over Boag. A new one "Bluetongue" probably named after the Blue Tongue Lizard will go in compitition. I spent 5 weeks there, It is the most beautiful place you would see. The wildlife is so prolific road kill is staggering. The sides of the roads are alive with Echidna's, Devils, Roos, heaps of rabbits, Lizards etc. The first 3 seem to run in the road. The poor Echidna is too slow and all too tame.

Our Supermarkets all carry their brand of beer kit usually a Draught I have tried them all and each has a unique flavour of its own. I have not found what brewery supplies the wort concentrate for them.
Note to self-enquire.
 
I don't even care what you say, just keep making posts, cuz I get a kick out of reading them with a Croc Dundee accent :drunk:... If there was one accent in the world I wish I had, (or more importantly, that I wish my wife had ;)), it's yours.

What's a TAD?
 
:off:
If there was one accent in the world I wish I had, (or more importantly, that I wish my wife had)

Funny you say that. I emigrated from England in 1964 married an Australian Sheila and got converted. Now I speak strine with the best of them and my G'Day is as good as it gets, it is only true Aussies that recognise me as the Pom I am. Crocodile Dundee is a wanker used to be a bridge painter, Actually I do Paul Hogan an injustice he is one funny fellow and gave an insight into Aussie humer. Our best ambasador was Lara Bingle when she asked the world " Where the bloody hell are you" The Poms bless their cotton socks thought it rude, takes a lot to be a mate you got to be thick skinned. Our top cricketer Michael Clark latched on to her, Lucky bugger.
Cricket the game where a fellow try's to hit another defending himself with a piece of Willow making it harder by bouncing the ball off uneven ground. There is no penalty for hitting the batsman, its called softening him up.
Like Rugby League - Non stop Grid Iron without padding, The main objective is to get as many players off the field so the opposing team runs out of replacements. Also called softening up.
I saw a demo Gridiron game against our players, not knowing the rules they lined up in a running V and what do you say sacked the quarterback. They did have an advantage they also wore padding. I often wondered why they call him a quarterback. After going down he must nearly get quartered.
Great game if they did not stop all the time. If the ball goes out it should be thrown in and the teams should go at it. They do not seem to pass the ball to the wings and back to the centers enough. I like to see a bit of biffo in a game although that does happen in Baseball.

Ah! sport I can sit with a beer and watch for hours
 
All I can say is I live in a hot country in summer it broaches 40c and in winter it does drop to zero some nights. I have been brewing in these conditions for over 30 years. No, I do not enter compititions as I use kits such as Coopers, Cascade, Tooheys & any number of specialist kits. I did not formulate them so I cannot claim any success for them.

My only yardstick is the opinion of friends. Australia's beer is 90% Lager. Fosters is for tourists and export and not generally consumed here even though available.

Brewing is not a hobby of mine. The end product is the reason. If my beer was not up to or better than the commercial offerings I would not waste my time.

I am surprised how much kit brewing is looked down on. The wort is formulated by expert chemists not from trial or error recipes. I have tried beer from many sources some good some not and am happy to stick with the expected result I get.

Believe me I would love a celler that can keep a constant temperature.

One thing I have discovered is that after getting a TAD system and dispensing one of my Ales the beer does seem to take on a better mouth feel.

Looking forward to using it with a C02/N02 combination to dispense a Coopers Stout with that creamy head.

My latest brew is a European Lager brewed in temperatures in the high 30's and by taste now 2 weeks in the secondary seems fine, no off flavours. Strange yeast used though gives off a egg smell as stated on the can. Luckily that has now gassed off. Almost ready to be primed in the TAD bottles.

So as I said I do not use a airlock and brew 24 litres in a 50 litre fermenter. Maybe that is the reason.
 
I think by definition, 30C/86F does not a lager make. What you made was a California Common, or in your case an Aussie Common.
 
Here's my two cents. If you've been using the same procedure and relatively similar kits for 30 years and you like the results, then you're really only saying you're completely happy with your process and the beer that results from that process. That's fine, but unless I'm missing something, you don't have enough data to say that you might be bucking conventional wisdom and that you can make just as good of a beer by fermenting at high temperatures, not worrying about oxidation, etc., etc.

What you would need to make these claims are the proper CONTROL experiments. For example, have you taken the same kit, fermented one at 40 Celsius and one at 20 Celsius and compared them side-by-side? When you do that, you may notice quite prominent off flavors that you had no idea existed in that 40 Celsius beer. Take this same side-by-side approach and apply it to any other variable that you think you're finding doesn't matter that much and you'll start to really whittle down how different fermentation variables affect flavor.

Until then, you're really just saying that you're content with the beer you've made under a given, roughly similar, set of conditions for the past 30 years. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. As was said before, consistent technique ensures consistent results...
 
Man, if your beer is good fermenting at 104F, it would be world class fermented at 65f. :)
 
I do not disagree and yes probably so called Lager it aint after I have mangled it, but so far it tastes refreshing. Controlled tests would probably be a good thing to do but I am only interested in results. If it is refreshing and you have to beat your mates off from finishing your stocks I am satisfied.

Thanks "Aussie Common" yeah that's what it is. It has a name at last. Now the logo. That is of course if it lasts long enough.

I take a lot in from posts on this forum and do not propose that I know better. Perhaps it is the fact that ignorence is bliss. So while it is I shall brew away.

It's the same here in the states. If you want good head, you have to pay for it.

C02/N02 costs only $2aud cannot get cheaper head than that

Next month the temperature should be around 19 to 25c so I will be putting down a Draught. My Cider is bubbling away in the screen room, temperature a tad over 40c in the day for 3 days,today a cold 25c.

I think I should market these Aussie yeasts. They are supposed to stand 25 to 35c but who tells the yeast. I am always saying "Go you good thing".
I believe it is the water, it is that pure you can drink it right out of the tap and the flouride helps keep the yeast's teeth healthy.
 
Controlled tests would probably be a good thing to do but I am only interested in results. If it is refreshing and you have to beat your mates off from finishing your stocks I am satisfied.

That's completely fine, nothing wrong with that, but technically you weren't just commenting on the results, you were trying to draw conclusions from the results that weren't completely justified. Like the statement in your first post - "I have never experienced oxidation". Well, how do you know if you've never done a side-by-side tasting? What you could legitimately conclude is "I've fermented for years with no air lock, and I love the taste of my beer, so if I'm experiencing oxidation, so what - it still tastes good to me." And so on...that was my only point.

But absolutely, if you love your beer, there's no reason to change anything.
 
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