HoppyDaze
Well-Known Member
Not sure that I really like this development. Anyone have an opinion on this? It may affect a lot of the more popular beer coming out of Portland; which is a big deal
Beer crafters fret over changes to Portland city water
- Thread starter HoppyDaze
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Not sure that I really like this development. Anyone have an opinion on this? It may affect a lot of the more popular beer coming out of Portland; which is a big deal
Hey, you don't have the ability to think for yourself. Don't you know that? The government is here to help. Another fine example in my opinion.
Sorry to throw rocks into the hornets nest, as I am sure there are many who disagree.
Sorry to throw rocks into the hornets nest, as I am sure there are many who disagree.
davesrose
Well-Known Member
Kind of hard to pass judgement if we don't know what filtration system is going to be installed. If it's mainly used for cysts, then it might not filter out minerals. I know if I was a Portland brewer, I'd want all those details before I'd decide whether it was worth it to put up a fight.
kaiser423
Well-Known Member
Huh.
Portland can get that infection storing finished water out in the open. That's how it works. Now that strain might not be very present up in Portland, but I bet that it's around.
I mean, the UV system just kills the bacteria and does not affect the mineral composition, so the brewers shouldn't worry...the sand one, it doesn't say much. But I see a lot of bluster and not a lot of reasoning here. Does the sand system really hurt the water composition?
My MIL lives in Alamosa, CO and they ended up getting a salmonella outbreak in their water, due to not properly separating finished water from non. They had to shut schools down, truck in water, no showers, no dish cleaning (paper plates for every meal), etc for a month or so. It suuuuucked.
Dude, the government provides the water. It's a utility. If you want the government out of your shiat, then just don't drink water.
Portland can get that infection storing finished water out in the open. That's how it works. Now that strain might not be very present up in Portland, but I bet that it's around.
I mean, the UV system just kills the bacteria and does not affect the mineral composition, so the brewers shouldn't worry...the sand one, it doesn't say much. But I see a lot of bluster and not a lot of reasoning here. Does the sand system really hurt the water composition?
My MIL lives in Alamosa, CO and they ended up getting a salmonella outbreak in their water, due to not properly separating finished water from non. They had to shut schools down, truck in water, no showers, no dish cleaning (paper plates for every meal), etc for a month or so. It suuuuucked.
Dude, the government provides the water. It's a utility. If you want the government out of your shiat, then just don't drink water.
I have some pretty good info on this because I know someone who works for the other Portland (Maine) water district. Both Portlands are part of a handful of public water districts that don't filter water because it is so clean they have a waiver. Both Portland's are affected by the EPA mandate regarding Crypto, and both are trying to get a waiver.
As I understand it, if they can prove a certain absurdly low count of crypto cysts (1 per 13,000 liters) they can get exempted. But it is expensive to test that much water and there is no guarantee that it will pass.
Portland, Me is looking at UV treatment as the contingency. To a brewer this would be preferable as it shouldn't affect any brewing chemistry. Sand filtration adds chemicals and can alter brewing chemistry.
As I understand it, if they can prove a certain absurdly low count of crypto cysts (1 per 13,000 liters) they can get exempted. But it is expensive to test that much water and there is no guarantee that it will pass.
Portland, Me is looking at UV treatment as the contingency. To a brewer this would be preferable as it shouldn't affect any brewing chemistry. Sand filtration adds chemicals and can alter brewing chemistry.
Big10Seaner
Well-Known Member
They should be able to figure out the water changes, they just have to do a little more math/homework.
rico567
Well-Known Member
The messing with water supplies is just going to ramp up exponentially* as the pure aquifers in this country continue to diminish. It's done in the name of public health which, like national security, is virtually impossible to argue against.....so I wouldn't bother.
If I was that concerned about where my water was coming from, I would have my own water treatment system, so that I could be 100% assured of the product. For example, we are on well water out where we live, and due to the high levels of dissolved iron and calcium, it is unsuitable for brewing. Given my small volumes, I just buy RO water from the grocery store. If I wanted to use my well water, there are surprisingly inexpensive systems available to treat water. The most suitable for the homebrewer are probably those designed for large aquarium owners:
Aquarium Water | Reverse Osmosis | RODI Water | ReefKeeper Water | Products and answers for your water treatment needs.
*exponentially- According to Lewis Black, "This is a word I learned in math class, and never thought I would ever, ever use in a sentence. Basically, it just means crappier, and crappier, and crappier."
If I was that concerned about where my water was coming from, I would have my own water treatment system, so that I could be 100% assured of the product. For example, we are on well water out where we live, and due to the high levels of dissolved iron and calcium, it is unsuitable for brewing. Given my small volumes, I just buy RO water from the grocery store. If I wanted to use my well water, there are surprisingly inexpensive systems available to treat water. The most suitable for the homebrewer are probably those designed for large aquarium owners:
Aquarium Water | Reverse Osmosis | RODI Water | ReefKeeper Water | Products and answers for your water treatment needs.
*exponentially- According to Lewis Black, "This is a word I learned in math class, and never thought I would ever, ever use in a sentence. Basically, it just means crappier, and crappier, and crappier."
davesrose
Well-Known Member
Since when has public water ever come from a "pure aquifer"? Heck, also, we'd have to also factor in the types of pipes water incounters before it gets to you (as some will leak more impurities then others). Besides chlorine, public water has been fluoridated starting in 1945. Due to physics, not just politics, it's impossible to get pure H2O from one's tap....so even if the current concern is with disease-bearing microbes, the bureaucracy of municipal water will never change...which has been messing with water since its inception
menschmaschine
Well-Known Member
Can't help myself... somewhat of a biology rant...
Basic types of microbes: bacteria, fungi, protozoans, viruses (one could argue whether or not they're actually "alive"), and prions (not alive at all, but sort of a protein with a purpose).
Cryptosporidium is a protozoan... not a virus or a bacterium. The only reliable way to eliminate it is through filtration since chemical treatment, heating (boiling), and UV light either doesn't kill it or isn't guaranteed to kill it. A 1 micron filter will remove it. If they use that, I don't see how it would affect the water chemistry.
Basic types of microbes: bacteria, fungi, protozoans, viruses (one could argue whether or not they're actually "alive"), and prions (not alive at all, but sort of a protein with a purpose).
Cryptosporidium is a protozoan... not a virus or a bacterium. The only reliable way to eliminate it is through filtration since chemical treatment, heating (boiling), and UV light either doesn't kill it or isn't guaranteed to kill it. A 1 micron filter will remove it. If they use that, I don't see how it would affect the water chemistry.
That is one badly researched and written article. Doesn't help that Leonard doesn't: A. know what Cryptosporidium is and B. doesn't know filters cannot remove viruses.
A sand filter could change the water profile, but not by much. It would probably be within seasonal variation.
A sand filter could change the water profile, but not by much. It would probably be within seasonal variation.
davesrose
Well-Known Member
It's not a researched article period. For one, it's not the author that confuses Cryptosporidium with a virus, but rather it's Portland City Commissioner Randy Leonard: of course the author hasn't done any basic research to know the falacies with people's arguments. The only thing this article is indicative of is how quick to judge the mob mantality is. Most impurities that water is treated with/for is of no importance to brewers. If there are any Portland brewers concerned, they should just ask if there will be any minerals filtered out.
barracudamagoo
Well-Known Member
Filters will remove some of the calcium; however, it will be negligable. UV would be an option; but, it is incredibly costly. Even in small systems that less than 15 MGD, it starts around $50 million not including the cost of replacement bulbs. Either way, the filters (sand and carbon) will not have as much of an impact as Chlorine will.
barracudamagoo
Well-Known Member
Depends if the testing is conducted on the finished or the raw water. If it is finished water it needs to be less than 5% of samples (actual value is dependent on the number of customers served). In addition, the testing is not that expensive (especially when faced with installing a UV system). Most laboratories will take the cheap route and test for coliform; however, someone is/should be testing for it.
Sand filtration does not add chemicals; it can remove some of what is left in the processed water before it enters the distribution system.
As an aside, before the Milwaukee outbreak (1993), few if any treatment plants had filtration systems. Like the people of Portland, most thought their water was safe; and, 99% of the time it is. Yet, as demonstrated in Milwaukee and in Walkerton Canada, all it takes is a heavy rain (or negligence) to contaminate a reservoir. Large numbers of people can become ill, and those with comprimised immune systems, the elderly, and young have a greater chance of death.
