LHBS Grain Crush & Efficiency

I just finished up my second all-grain batch after brewing extract for a couple of years, moving to full-wort boils in there somewhere, and then mini-mashing for a year or so. The mini-mash procedures were great for getting my thought process and procedures ready for the move up to all-grain. I have used Beer Tools Pro software (thanks Bobby M. for the YouTube video tutorials!) since before I started mini-mashing and have all my equipment calibrated so I have been accurately hitting volumes and mash temps for a while now. I got myself a 10 gallon beverage cooler and fittings from Lowe's that I converted with a bazooka screen, an 11 gallon SS boil kettle to which I installed a weldless spigot, and a refractometer. I already had a 9 gallon SS kettle with weldless spigot that I now use as a strike water HLT, a 4 gallon kettle that I use as an HLT on my stovetop for sparge water, an SP-50 tall LP burner stand, a CF chiller, and the other usual accessories.

I have been disappointed by my mash efficiency since the move to all-grain, though and I'm wondering if the grain crush from my LHBS is the culprit. Like I said, I have done two all-grain batches; both single infusion (154˚ for approx 60 mins), double batch sparge with temps and volumes calculated by BTP, and iodine conversion tests. On the first batch, I didn't have my act together as well as I thought. I nailed my mash temp but, I ended up sparging with too much water and leaving the extra gallon or so of runoff out of the kettle. That batch ended up with 60% brewhouse efficiency (I didn't take a pre-boil gravity reading). The batch I did yesterday, I nailed my temps and volumes; mashed at 154˚, collected 7.25 gallons in the kettle, boiled for an hour, chilled, collected 5.5 gallons in the fermentor, pitched, yada yada. This batch ended up with a 65.25% brewhouse efficiency. Here's the stats:

Amber Ale
Target OG: 1.054 (13.3˚p) calculated at 70% mash efficiency
Actual OG: 1.050 (12.4˚p) post-chill/pre-pitch

Target Pre-Boil SG: 1.044 (11˚p) calculated at 7.25 gallons in kettle
Actual Pre-Boil SG: 1.039 (9.7˚p) collected 7.25 gallons in kettle

Sorry to go all War & Peace on this post but, I figured folks would be asking a bunch of questions about equipment and procedure. Let me know what you think or if there are any other questions about my calculations and procedures. Thanks in advance!

You have a decent amount of equipment,so my suggestion would be to add one more item, a grain mill, I know alot of people talk smack about the barley crusher grain mill, but since getting one, I have consistently had BHE of 79-80%, and it iis one of the least expensive mills that comes complete with a hopper and base.

It will be one of thebest $150 you will spend.

My LHBS crush is pretty crappy, so I wouln't be surprised if your LHBS is similar to mine.

Just for the sake of full disclosure, here's the amber ale recipe I brewed yesterday:

Volumes:
Pre-Boil - 7.25 Gal
Post-Boil - 6 Gal
Fermentor - 5.25 Gal

Grain Bill (calculated at 70% efficiency for target volumes)
11 lb 2-Row Brewer's Malt
0.75 lb Belgian Aromatic Malt
0.5 lb Caramel 20L Malt
0.5 lb Caramel 40L Malt
0.5 lb Caramel 60L Malt

Single infusion @ 154˚F and double batch sparge

60 mins - 14g Columbus @ 14.2% AA
10 mins - 1 Whirlfloc tab
Flameout - 28g Ahtanum @ 5.2% AA

Yeast - WYeast 1272 American Ale II (I guess they call it "All-American Ale" now)

Schnitzengiggle said:

You have a decent amount of equipment,so my suggestion would be to add one more item, a grain mill, I know alot of people talk smack about the barley crusher grain mill, but since getting one, I have consistently had BHE of 79-80%.

It will be one of thebest $150 you will spend.

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I know I should get one. Even if just for the fact that I could buy and store grain in 50/55 lb quantity for cheaper. I would like to have control of my crush, though. The bummer is, I just bought the cooler and kettle. It might be a minute before I can justify another purchase to SWMBO. Thanks!

Not if, but when I get a mill, what is a good starting point as far as roller gap?

headfullahops said:

Not if, but when I get a mill, what is a good starting point as far as roller gap?

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If you get a Barley Crusher, the default .39 is actually decent, nice amount of flour, but keeps the husks intact. Otherwise, .39 would be a good starting point, I know some people prefer their crush even finer, but I would be worried about stuck sparges when going too fine.

How do you measure the gap? Is there an indicator on the mill?

When I first got my Barley Crusher, my friend encouraged me to tighten it down a bit from the factory setting (lets call it moving the notch from 12 o'clock to 11 o'clock. I averaged 85% efficiency using a fly sparge. However, I did see about 4 stuck sparges over 20 batches. As far as I am concerned, 1 stuck sparge is too many, because it can really ruin brewday.

I have come to understand it that you can get away with a bit tighter of a crush when batch sparging; although I do not really understand this logic. I strongly suggest leaving the Barley Crusher at factory setting (the notch at 12 o'clock). I think it is a much nicer crush, I have not had a problem during the sparge, and it only costed me about 5 points of efficiency (85%->80%). It is a small price to pay for a grain bed that is suited much better for lautering, and it puts my mind at ease on brewday.

Joe

jfowler1 said:

I have come to understand it that you can get away with a bit tighter of a crush when batch sparging; although I do not really understand this logic. I strongly suggest leaving the Barley Crusher at factory setting (the notch at 12 o'clock). I think it is a much nicer crush, I have not had a problem during the sparge, and it only costed me about 5 points of efficiency (85%->80%). It is a small price to pay for a grain bed that is suited much better for lautering, and it puts my mind at ease on brewday.

Joe

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Well, I wouldn't haggle over 5% efficiency discrepancy either if I was up in the 80's. The more I read here in HBT, the more I feel the need to get a mill and crush my own.
:rockin:

Crankandstein model 2S with base and hopper was $126 delivered to my door. The default gap is .45, and I got 77-81% on my last few brews. I decided to get the Crankandstein because the base is plywood, not MDF. Money well spent.....just need to get in on a group buy now.

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headfullahops said:

How do you measure the gap? Is there an indicator on the mill?

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The best way is feeler gauges. They are used to check spark plug gaps. I tried to find them at Home Depot/Lowe's, but I had to go to Pep Boys/Autozone. Each piece of metal is a different thickness and you shove one into the gap between the rollers to determine the gap size.

They look like this:

BrewThruYou said:

The best way is feeler gauges. They are used to check spark plug gaps. I tried to find them at Home Depot/Lowe's, but I had to go to Pep Boys/Autozone. Each piece of metal is a different thickness and you shove one into the gap between the rollers to determine the gap size.

They look like this:

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Sears has them... A couple different ones at that... Just go into their automotive tools section and they should be hanging on the peg-board... That's where I got mine.

headfullahops said:

How do you measure the gap? Is there an indicator on the mill?

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feeler guages.

RedHouse said:

Crankandstein model 2S with base and hopper was $126 delivered to my door. The default gap is .45, and I got 77-81% on my last few brews. I decided to get the Crankandstein because the base is plywood, not MDF. Money well spent.....just need to get in on a group buy now.

Click to expand...

That's not a bad deal. Where did you purchase form? How much does the hopper hold? Runs on a drill?

BTW - I already have a set of feeler gauges.

Ask your shop to double-crush the grain for you, or adjust the mill gap down. Many don't have any problems with the first option if they are not too busy, but relatively few are willing to play with the mill settings if they don't have to. Asking never hurts, though!

As for a mill, I recommend the Barley Crusher, but from what I have heard, any product on the market does a fine job. I'd go with the most affordable option that still lets you adjust the mill gap and doesn't force you to build your own hopper/base board (unless you like building stuff).

ArcaneXor said:

Ask your shop to double-crush the grain for you, or adjust the mill gap down. Many don't have any problems with the first option if they are not too busy, but relatively few are willing to play with the mill settings if they don't have to. Asking never hurts, though!

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It crossed my mind to ask when I was there getting ingredients. Their mill has a nice big knob for adjusting the crush. I don't think they would give me any grief about double-milling or changing mill gap setting. They're always very helpful. However, being that it was my second all-grain batch and I had overshot volumes on the first, I wanted to see what would happen with their stock crush setting and me having my act together. Now that I've hit the volumes and still had low efficiency, I am giving their mill gap the side-eye.

After a quick Google search, I found Brewmaster's Warehouse has the C&S 2S with hopper/base for $108 plus shipping.

However, I did see about 4 stuck sparges over 20 batches. As far as I am concerned, 1 stuck sparge is too many, because it can really ruin brewday.

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I always figured this was the reason that LHBS crushes were always set a little to the weaker side. Winding up a few points short on a recipe is a lot more comforting than getting a stuck sparge. Since most LHBS run on keeping a repeat business going, anything that might cause too much of a hassle during a brew-day is one more thing that might convince someone not to brew again.

That being said, an LHBS double-crush or getting your own mill are both good options. While money is tight talk to the LHBS about getting a finer crush, just might want to consider some rice hulls if you are worried about stuck sparges. Once you get your own mill you can condition your grain and that should cut down on stuck sparges and let you grind nice and tight.

headfullahops said:

That's not a bad deal. Where did you purchase form? How much does the hopper hold? Runs on a drill?

BTW - I already have a set of feeler gauges.

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I purchased it directly from C&S website. I'm really not sure what the hopper holds, I just fill it, crush...refill if necessary. Or, if I have a helper, they run the the drill while I pour the grain in from a bucket.

I run the mill on a 1/2" dewalt drill motor that I have had for years.

headfullahops said:

After a quick Google search, I found Brewmaster's Warehouse has the C&S 2S with hopper/base for $108 plus shipping.

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That's a good deal then! They only charge $6.99 for shipping.

erikpete18 said:

I always figured this was the reason that LHBS crushes were always set a little to the weaker side. Winding up a few points short on a recipe is a lot more comforting than getting a stuck sparge. Since most LHBS run on keeping a repeat business going, anything that might cause too much of a hassle during a brew-day is one more thing that might convince someone not to brew again.

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That's fine. I know they have a business to run. I would have hoped to at least get 70%, though. Maybe the double crush is the answer until I can get a mill.

I have the exact same problem. I consistently hit 60-65% using my LBHS milled grain even when I have them run it through twice. I haven't asked them to tighten gap for me though. That may be the way to go until I can convince my SWMBO on the mill.

i was seeing 68-72% from LHBS, after i started to use my own roller crusher im seeing on average over the past 3 brews with a gap of .038 of 83-85% eff. So im done with the LHBS crusher unless i have emergency and have to use it.

My LHBS used to have a pour crush because their crusher was just worn out. They have been in business for maybe 20 years. I just got and extra couple pounds of grains to compensate. They have recently purchased a Barley Crusher. Now their crush is perfect.

When you oversparged you should have just gone for a longer boil. The wort that you didn't use was wasted ingredients. I usually oversparge on purpose and boil for 90 minutes.

mrk305 said:

When you oversparged you should have just gone for a longer boil. The wort that you didn't use was wasted ingredients. I usually oversparge on purpose and boil for 90 minutes.

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I know. It was my first go at the all-grain bit and figured I'd just roll with it. Like it would have been a big deal to go and plug the new volume into my brewing software and get a new boil time. Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins!
:cross:

headfullahops said:

I know. It was my first go at the all-grain bit and figured I'd just roll with it. Like it would have been a big deal to go and plug the new volume into my brewing software and get a new boil time. Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins!
:cross:

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Throwing away perfectly good pre-boil wort is higher on the list... It should be #1 on the list for home brewers.

Golddiggie said:

Throwing away perfectly good pre-boil wort is higher on the list... It should be #1 on the list for home brewers.

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I know that now and I'm getting help for my problem.

Ravenshead said:

I have the exact same problem. I consistently hit 60-65% using my LBHS milled grain even when I have them run it through twice. I haven't asked them to tighten gap for me though. That may be the way to go until I can convince my SWMBO on the mill.

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Same here. I always double crush my grains at Midwest, I have brewed 20+ batches AG, and have never got above 68%. Typically I get around 60-65%. I would like to find someone local w/ a mill to borrow it to see if efficiencies actually go up, rather then drop 125 bucks on something that wont make much difference.

On my typical 14lb grain bill, im only buying about an extra 2.5 lbs more grain ($3 per batch) then if I was getting 75% efficiency, so the grain mill would really have to be good in order to make it a worthwhile investment.

incutrav said:

On my typical 14lb grain bill, im only buying about an extra 2.5 lbs more grain ($3 per batch) then if I was getting 75% efficiency, so the grain mill would really have to be good in order to make it a worthwhile investment.

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It seems a lot of folk here are getting in the mid-80%'s with their own mill. That would make the investment well worth it, even after only a handful of batches. I can tell just by looking at the crush from my LHBS I will never get that high of an efficiency without my own mill. Besides, being able to condition my malt may be reason enough.

incutrav said:

Same here. I always double crush my grains at Midwest, I have brewed 20+ batches AG, and have never got above 68%. Typically I get around 60-65%. I would like to find someone local w/ a mill to borrow it to see if efficiencies actually go up, rather then drop 125 bucks on something that wont make much difference.

On my typical 14lb grain bill, im only buying about an extra 2.5 lbs more grain ($3 per batch) then if I was getting 75% efficiency, so the grain mill would really have to be good in order to make it a worthwhile investment.

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I am getting the exact opposite of you, I double crush all my grains at midwest as well and I have been averaging about 78% eff. One batch I hit as high as 85%, was quite surprised at that one, the lowest I have hit with a midwest double crush was 76% (out of the 8 all grain batches I have done).

TheBrewinator said:

I am getting the exact opposite of you, I double crush all my grains at midwest as well and I have been averaging about 78% eff. One batch I hit as high as 85%, was quite surprised at that one, the lowest I have hit with a midwest double crush was 76% (out of the 8 all grain batches I have done).

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Interesting. The only other thing I can figure it could be then would be the PH of my water, maybe its super hard and hurting my conversion? I have tried all sorts of different mash in volumes, tried double batch sparges, all have had very little effect on efficency. Ill have to grab some PH strips next time at the store.

Now that i do the math,If my efficency went up to 75% with a mill, it would take me about 40 batches to pay for(3-4 years at the rate I brew). Not worth it to me.

I probably should just not mess with anything, because at least I am consistant!

I adjusted my recipes to the efficiency I get my LHBS milling and it's only a pound of base malt to make up the difference. I think I will be looking at fermentation temp control and oxygenation before I worry about a mill.

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

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RedHouse said:

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

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+5 there... Getting grain at a better rate (group grain buy) will help you easily recover the cost of a mill. I was paying more than double, per pound, when ordering the grain online compared with what I paid for the sacks of grain. At the LHBS, a 55# sack of UK 2 Row was $80... I paid just under $40 (with the freight charges added)... The way I see it, I'll save more than what the grain mill cost me (I picked up a Barley Crusher) in about three sacks of grain. After that, it's all savings...

RedHouse said:

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

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That's a good point. I didn't calculate anything as far as buying in bulk. That would add up quick.
:rockin:

RedHouse said:

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk

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The savings you see buying in bulk are a given. Sadly, I do not have a very local HBS, and I really can't justify pissing off my wife by going on a 2-1/2 hour car trip on a Sunday morning to save $20 on a sack of grain. If I had a shop in town, this would be a bigger factor for me.

However, I started buying a couple "like" batches worth of base grain (in other words, a couple batches worth of Maris Otter, or domestic 2-row, or pilsner, etc) at a time from Ed at BMW. His shipping terms are beyond fair, and his prices are really solid. I still see value in owning the mill because it allows me to not only use fresher ingredients by buying what I need in the short-run and crushing it when I am ready to brew, but even more valuable - it is a consistent crush. Same mill, (roughly) same speed, every time I brew. It is difficult to build recipes and get your system dialed in if you have someone else crushing your grain for every batch.

So I say even without the bulk sack factor, go for the mill - even if it is just for the sake of consistency, or fresher ingredients, or eliminating a domestic disagreement. All of which are equally valuable.

Joe

jfowler1 said:

The savings you see buying in bulk are a given. Sadly, I do not have a very local HBS, and I really can't justify pissing off my wife by going on a 2-1/2 hour car trip on a Sunday morning to save $20 on a sack of grain. If I had a shop in town, this would be a bigger factor for me.

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I think the post you quoted said that he didn't buy at his LHBS, he ordered online and had it shipped. That would probably be your best option if you have the space to store 50+ # of barley.

My local HBS still uses a corona hand mill! Not only that but they want you to grind it yourself! Imaging buying grain for a 10 gallon batch and then being told the mill is in back see you in a few hours! I went and bought a barley mill.

I always buy and mill my grain at Midwest, so no issue with any inconsistencies there. While you do save when buying in bulk, its still 45 bucks that would have to come out of my pocket at once. its a lot easier spending 12-15 bucks a batch on grain. Not always easy to convince my sig. other of the 'big picture savings".

Same thing happened when I recommend we buy 1/2 a cow to 'save money'. We would have saved a bunch in the long run over store bought, but the one time 300 hit negated that deal.

headfullahops said:

I think the post you quoted said that he didn't buy at his LHBS, he ordered online and had it shipped. That would probably be your best option if you have the space to store 50+ # of barley.

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Hmmmm....I did read again, and did not see anything mentioned by that poster about ordering online. Maybe I missed it.

"I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time. Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk"

Regardless. My point was clearly missed. Let me run some online math for you, because it seems a lesson in economics is in order. Lets look at buying in bulk; be it from a LHBS, online source, or local bulk group buy. This gets a little rant-y, but I think it is important to the theme of this thread, and some people might find the number crunching helpful.

Online
I just checked out a new online supplier fiftypoundsack.com.

http://www.fiftypoundsack.com/products/Briess-2%2dRow.html

They will ship you a 51 pound sack of domestic 2-row, full freight allowed (ie- free shipping) for $66. That is a pretty good deal, and puts you at a cost of $1.29 per pound delivered.

Here is another example.

Morebeer sells their 2-row for $32.25. Great price! Doesn't include shipping!

http://morebeer.com/view_product/17159/102161/Domestic_2-Row_50_lb_Sack

What do you think you are getting charged for shipping? I think $1 per pound is a pretty conservative estimate. Certainly, it would not be cheaper than $.50 per pound ($25) to ship that sack, right? So lets say that morebeer really wants to save you money, and charges $35.25 for the sack and $25 for shipping (which is no where near what you are actually going to be paying for shipping) = $60.25 to your door. That equals $1.21 / lb., delivered. Perhaps someone who has actually paid their outrageous shipping fee for a pack of grain can clarify exactly what they paid. I guarantee it is far more than $25.

Now lets look at BMW (Bremaster's warehouse). Domestic 2-row is $1.15 per pound. That is $57.50 per sack, and I believe their shipping rate is $6.99 flat. Now, maybe you belong to a special club, and get a 10% discount from BMW. That discount brings the price per pound to $1.04, so delivered, it is 1.04 x 50 + 6.99 = $58.99, or $1.18 / pound.

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/product/0101475/briess-2row-brewers-malt

What is the hook? You get the $1.04 price per pound from BMW without having to have 50 lbs of grain rotting in your garage!!!!

So for review.

Buying at 50 lb sacks .com = $1.29/ lb (must buy 50 lbs)
Morebeer = $1.21/ lb (Which is assuming an unreasonably fair shipping rate, and still must buy 50 lbs)
BMW = $1.18 per pound (but you don't have to buy the full sack!)

LHBS
I think my local HBS gets around $40 for a sack (a pretty fair estimate if B3 gets $35 per a sack from their walk in business), but I have to buy a sack. If I just liked the idea of seeing a sack of grain rotting in my garage, I could have bought the thing from Ed at BMW for $59 delivered, or I can spend over two hours to drive to the LHBS in an effort to save $19, $25, $30 (whatever). At $40 / sack, plus 7% sales tax, which I now have to consider, my price is $42.80, or $.86 per pound. Great, but I just dedicated 2 hours of my weekend to save $.32 on a pound of grain. What is your time worth? How much is gas right now by you?

Local Group Bulk Buy
Someone mentioned earlier that they can get sacks of grain in a local group buy delivered for 50% of the prices they were paying online. I believe $80 vs $40 was the example. Lets carry that through for 2-row, because the earlier example was for UK Pale. If you can accept the online base price of ~$60 per sack, that would put a group bulk buy at $30 delivered. Awesome, $.60/lb. The only problem is, you still need to get the buy organized, you still need to go pick up your malt, and you will still have a 50lb sack of grain sitting in your garage for 6 months.

I'll pass on buying the sacks. The savings are not as tremendous as you would think, be it buying a piece of a skid (for $30 a sack) , buying online (for ~$60 / sack), or buying from the LHBS (for ~$40 a sack). I'll take fresh ingredients in the short-run over rotting sacks of grain sitting in my hot garage for 6 months all day. The (at skid price) $.60 / lb savings is not a good enough reason to deal with the stress of group buys, traveling time, or stale ingredients. I'll order from Ed 4-5 times a year, never have to leave my house, pay a fair price for the grain, and keep my ingredients as fresh as possible.

Using my math, and at the best case scenario bulk buy skid price savings of $.60 / lb, used in a 5 gallon batch with an average base grain bill of 10 lbs, comes out to a savings of $6 spread out over 48 beers. That is $.12 per beer. Buy your grain for locally OTC for $40 a sack, and you save $3.2 on a batch, or $.06 / beer. Seems a little silly to me. Organizing group buys, driving around the state on a Saturday, all in the name of saving a nickle on every beer I drink.

So buy the mill for freshness, consistency, and convenience, not just because it could save you a few cents per glass of beer. Let's concentrate on the important things.

That said, any one know of a bulk buy in the NY/NJ/PA area? - j/k

Sorry,
Joe