Eves dropping at the bar

While sitting at the bar at a local winery I overheard an interesting question. The story went like this a person makes wine at home and gives some away but also takes "Donations towards fruit and supplies" for some of it.
So here is what my brain heard, "They found a loop hole around not being able to sell the homemade wine, they take donations". What are your thoughts on this?

Feds are not this easily fooled.

Sounds fair to me, and in moderation should not be a problem unless they are trying to get away with something they know better than.

Do a search on here.

There are plenty of threads from people who are dumb enough to think they can get away with breaking the numerous laws that prevent selling homebrew and stupid enough to talk about it on a hugely popular homemade alcohol site that properly has rules against talking about illegal activities.

If it's not illegal, it's not illegal.

I recently accompanied a group to a local brewery this summer. Brewery tours cost $20 which includes unlimited "free samples" which would, obviously, be illegal to sell directly out of the brewery on a cash basis.

Not sure how this would be illegal. If a friend gives you 20lb of homegrown strawberries he can't use, would it be illegal to give him a bottle of strawberry wine as a thank you?

This area is very grey. My friend have me 60lb of apples. I intend to give her a bottle of cider. I think that's common courtesy, not breaking the law

It's still illegal in Texas.

Bluespark said:

Not sure how this would be illegal. If a friend gives you 20lb of homegrown strawberries he can't use, would it be illegal to give him a bottle of strawberry wine as a thank you?

This area is very grey. My friend have me 60lb of apples. I intend to give her a bottle of cider. I think that's common courtesy, not breaking the law

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IF the person giving you the base ingredients has ANY expectation of getting a fermented product in return (at another time, etc.) then I'm pretty sure it's illegal. If you plan to give them something unfermented (0% ABV), then it doesn't really matter.

I think a few of you missed what I said. This person sounded like they took "Donations" as in money not fruit. Sounded like this, "Hey how much for a bottle of your wine? I am sorry I can't sell homeade wine, but if you would like to make a cash donation towards the cost of fruit, etc. that would be ok."

Sounds like bootlegging to me, but hey people have been doing it 100 years, I doubt it will change now.

Golddiggie,
Hopping Tango Brewery, that is one awesome name.

cwebb said:

I think a few of you missed what I said. This person sounded like they took "Donations" as in money not fruit. Sounded like this, "Hey how much for a bottle of your wine? I am sorry I can't sell homeade wine, but if you would like to make a cash donation towards the cost of fruit, etc. that would be ok."

Sounds like bootlegging to me, but hey people have been doing it 100 years, I doubt it will change now.

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Still illegal, doesn't matter if "people have been doing it 100 years"...

As much as many of us would like to recover some of the costs associated with brewing, it's not worth the pain. I'd rather have someone come over and physically help me out on a brew day, while enjoying a few. IMO, that's either being a friend, or good neighbor.

cwebb said:

Golddiggie,
Hopping Tango Brewery, that is one awesome name.

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Thanks... Started off as a reference to COD, but has morphed into a honorable mention for my father and the last dog we/he had. I have a good friend working on a logo for me (free :rockin which I hope to have soon. He's not the fastest to reply, but he does work during the day (bastard). If I can't get the logo as I want, I might have to revert it to the original meaning.

So does that mean if anyone gets you some form of beer/wine making equipment or ingredients as a gift they can not ever drink from said equipment or batch?

Sounds like a good excuse to tell people, NO! :cross:

BetterSense said:

I recently accompanied a group to a local brewery this summer. Brewery tours cost $20 which includes unlimited "free samples" which would, obviously, be illegal to sell directly out of the brewery on a cash basis.

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They arw licensed to commercially brew and to sell beer.

Aside from the federal laws about bootlegging, you can't even sell homemade hot sauce without proper food production licensing and an approved commercial kitchen.
This is one more set of laws you would be in violation of if you were busted for selling homebrew.

Then they have the option of saying you are running a business by taking money for something you make.
The bootlegging is the real one to worry about. That can bring the fed's down on you.

hinkle said:

So does that mean if anyone gets you some form of beer/wine making equipment or ingredients as a gift they can not ever drink from said equipment or batch?

Sounds like a good excuse to tell people, NO! :cross:

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Gifts are gifts, provided (I believe) they have zero expectation of ever getting something you've made as 'payment' or in exchange.

Really, this is more for lawyers to provide answers on. IMO, if you're SMART about it and tell people you cannot accept anything in exchange for the alcoholic beverages you produce, you should be ok.

IF you have a party and people want to help cover the cost of the food, etc. but NOT the home brewed items, that could/should be ok. If the only thing served WAS the home brewed items, you're boned if you accept payment (believe it's not just money as a form). Not sure how they feel about 'sexual favors' though. Yeah, I couldn't stop myself...

The rules for producing food items for sale is pretty stiff too. For catering you need to have a completely separate kitchen that you use solely for that purpose. You can't use your regular home kitchen for it. You also need to pass inspections among other things. It's almost like the government wants to prevent food based cottage industries/business from forming.

Well my wife did buy me the brew kit, maybe I have to "repay" her so to make it even when she has some homebrew.

hinkle said:

Well my wife did buy me the brew kit, maybe I have to "repay" her so to make it even when she has some homebrew.

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Sounds like a good use of the 'favors' clause.

cwebb said:

While sitting at the bar at a local winery I overheard an interesting question. The story went like this a person makes wine at home and gives some away but also takes "Donations towards fruit and supplies" for some of it.
So here is what my brain heard, "They found a loop hole around not being able to sell the homemade wine, they take donations". What are your thoughts on this?

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Anyone who tells you that he's found a loophole to a law like this is wrong. That's not how laws work.

Golddiggie's right.

When it comes to alcohol production, if you think there is any chance it could be illegal and you don't want to pay fines and risk jail, don't do it.
If you really really want to and think you are smart enough to out maneuver the laws, consult an attorney.
They will say don't do it.

Guess my family is going to be PO'ed. Either they have to take back there Christmas gifts, or I can't give them anymore beer....Since the only thing I asked for.......ever....... is GC's to the LHBS. yea right.

501irishred said:

Guess my family is going to be PO'ed. Either they have to take back there Christmas gifts, or I can't give them anymore beer....Since the only thing I asked for.......ever....... is GC's to the LHBS. yea right.

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Same here. But come on, the government just wants the income tax and licensing money. If you aren't making a profit, I doubt they care. Which is why I don't take money for homebrew; I'm not trying to profit.

Yep, seems like my hobby/"business" is going deeper in the red every year! Kinda wish I COULD declare my "losses".

So if I'm spending the weekend at a hunting cabin, and a friend who is drinking HB offers me $20 for gas or LP, can I take it?

If homebrew and home winemaking is legal in your state you need to consult your state regulation. Homebrew and home winemaking are not legal in every state. Bizarre. But, many states follow the federal rule, there are clear guidelines, limitations and restrictions. And State and Local Laws may be far more restrictive than the Federal Law. The bottom line is you need to know how the law for each craft applies to you at the state level.

Here is a link to the Federal statute on homebrew, and the page also allows you to quickly access State regulations... http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/united-states

For federal regulation on wine....
You can do a search for Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, Title 27, Vol. 1, Part 24.75 if you'd like. But here's the basics of it as far as wine goes...but again check your State regulations.

Title 27, Vol. 1, Part 24.75

(a. ) General: Any adult may, without payment of tax, produce wine for personal or family use, and not for sale.

(b. ) Quantity: aggregate amount... (1) 200 gallons per calendar year for a household in which 2 or more adults reside, or (2) 100 gallons per calendar year if only 1 adult resides in the household.

(e. ) Limitation: This exemption should not in any manner be construed as authorizing the production of wine in violation of state or local laws, and does not apply to partnerships, corporations, or associations.

(f. ) Removal: Wine produced under this section may be removed from the premises where made, for personal or family use including organized affairs, exhibitions and competitions, such as home winemakers contests, tastings or judgings, but may not under any circumstances be sold or offered for sale.

mikescooling said:

So if I'm spending the weekend at a hunting cabin, and a friend who is drinking HB offers me $20 for gas or LP, can I take it?

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The fact that someone happens to be drinking homebrew while you are at a cabin and said person offers to pitch in for fuel costs has nothing to do with homebrew.

If the law was cut and dry or back and white, a bunch of lawyers would have to be finding new work........

501irishred said:

If the law was cut and dry or back and white, a bunch of lawyers would have to be finding new work........

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Seems pretty cut and dry to me, no? You can make beer but not sell it.

Use discretion guys. Part of discretion is not posting proposed homebrew sales on a public internet forum.

TyTanium said:

Use discretion guys. Part of discretion is not posting proposed homebrew sales on a public internet forum.

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+1...

The LAST thing you need is to have the fed's knocking on your door for selling homebrew...

MalFet said:

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, no? You can make beer but not sell it.

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Golddiggie said:

+1...

The LAST thing you need is to have the fed's knocking on your door for selling homebrew...

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The law in this country (US) fortunately or unfortunately is seldom cut and dry. Of course in this scenario, as in many, complete abstinence is the cure to all ills. Receive no cash, gifts, or donations of any kind from people that have or may in the future receive product you have made -cut and dry. For the most part anyway, what I've seen in this thread is people more or less asking what by law constitutes "selling" product. Where is that line? Is there any leeway, as long as no profit is made? This to me is saying we do not want to break the law, and want to make sure that line is not crossed unintentionally even if the intent was honorable. Not that I would ever do or not do something (legally or morally) solely based on something I read on the Internet, but I would rather see how 1000's of peers may interpret a law than see how 12 of them do.
Ignorance in my opinion is not bliss. I agree discretion is important, however if used to ignore/disguise ignorance, discretion can become a detriment.

501irishred said:

The law in this country (US) fortunately or unfortunately is seldom cut and dry. Of course in this scenario, as in many, complete abstinence is the cure to all ills. Receive no cash, gifts, or donations of any kind from people that have or may in the future receive product you have made -cut and dry. For the most part anyway, what I've seen in this thread is people more or less asking what by law constitutes "selling" product. Where is that line? Is there any leeway, as long as no profit is made? This to me is saying we do not want to break the law, and want to make sure that line is not crossed unintentionally even if the intent was honorable. Not that I would ever do or not do something (legally or morally) solely based on something I read on the Internet, but I would rather see how 1000's of peers may interpret a law than see how 12 of them do.
Ignorance in my opinion is not bliss. I agree discretion is important, however if used to ignore/disguise ignorance, discretion can become a detriment.

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It's really not as complicated as all that. What you have in threads like these is people trying to make laws complicated, to find "loopholes" that they believe will exempt them from plain language.

That's not how the law works. As with most transactions, a "sale" is constituted by the intent of the two parties involved. If the giving of money and the giving of beer are each dependent on the other for the transaction to proceed, it's a sale. Selling beer is illegal.

Everything else is just hocus pocus.

Just to throw a square at a round hole:
The entire Oregon medical marijuana laws are set up just like this. You are not allowed to sell your products. But if someone wants to make a donation to help cover your operating costs/supplies/etc they can and then they in return they donate their product. This doesn't just pertain to dispensaries, but to the literally millions of pounds "donated" from person to person there each year.

Why ask questions about taking 20 bucks from your friends?? The laws are set up to make sure the government gets their share of the money. This is oriented towards going into business selling your product publicly...

MalFet said:

It's really not as complicated as all that. What you have in threads like these is people trying to make laws complicated, to find "loopholes" that they believe will exempt them from plain language.

That's not how the law works. As with most transactions, a "sale" is constituted by the intent of the two parties involved. If the giving of money and the giving of beer are each dependent on the other for the transaction to proceed, it's a sale. Selling beer is illegal.

Everything else is just hocus pocus.

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I can only speak for myself, I don't know the motivation for others here, it was never my mission to find loopholes in a system so I could exploit it. On the other hand I don't want to get "get caught with my pants down" doing wrong what I previously thought I was in the good. I do believe however, as you, that intent is the bottom line.