Can't wrap my head around partigyle

Alright, so I am planning on doing a Barley wine in a couple weeks and have settled on using JZ's american barleywine recipe (posted below). I would really like to get a second beer (pale ale) out of this as well, but don't want to affect the main recipe if possible.

I batch sparge and typically use the following process
-mash with 1.3 to 1 ration water to grain
-mashout to raise temp to 168
-double batch sparge


So I guess what I don't understand is:

1. do I increase the amount of water and do a single sparge for the barleywine (with the amount of water I need for the barleywine) and then do a second "single" sparge for the pale ale?
2. do I do my standard double batch sparge and then do a 3rd or 4th sparge to collect runnings for the pale ale?
3. do I need to add additional grain for the pale ale after collecting the barleywine runnings?
4. how do I determine what the gravity of the pale ale will be (and again will it affect the expected gravity of the barleywine)?

I have a basic understanding of what I have to do here, I just don't understand the above questions. . .please help!!!!


Again, here is the recipe I am planning on using:
BarleyWine

Batch Size (Gal): 6.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 25.50
Anticipated OG: 1.115 Plato: 27.02
Anticipated SRM: 18.8
Anticipated IBU: 96.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 120 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name
86.3 22.00 lbs. MO Pale Malt(2-row)
3.9 1.00 lbs. Crystal 75L Great Britian
3.9 1.00 lbs. Crystal 20L America
1.0 0.25 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian
1.0 0.25 lbs. Chocolate Malt - Pale
3.9 1.00 lbs. Corn Sugar Generic

Exract represented as SG.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
2.00 oz. Magnum Pellet 15.50 96.0 60 min
1.00 oz. Chinook Pellet 13.00 0.0 0 min
1.50 oz. Centennial Pellet 10.50 0.0 0 min
1.50 oz. Amarillo Gold Pellet 10.00 0.0 0 min


Yeast
Wyeast 1056

You're going to have to be able to take gravities throughout and do some math.

You know you need to collect enough off the mash for two full boils. You will need at least two large vessels for collecting runnings, and probably a third to blend and adjust gravities to your plan.

There isn't a simple way to do this, so it's even harder to explain. A program like promash makes it easier since it has a wort dilution calculator. You will need to calculate as you go and adjust volumes to get to you target.

Let's say you collect 4 gallons from the first run-off at 1.130, and you collect 4 gallons of the second run-off at 1.090, then you will only need to add 2.4 gallons of the .090 to the .130 to achieve your target of 1.115 with a pre-boil volume of 6.4 gallons.

Now you have 1.6 gallons of .090 wort to play with. Do another batch sparge and take a gravity, then repeat the math.

Hope this helps, good luck.

Reading my thread might help...you actually get the see the evolution of my "getting it" (from pretty much where you are) to the development of my recipe. Basically from the space of being totally lost to actually being able to "trick" beersmith to doing the math for me....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/lets-partyyyy-gyle-pumpkin-porter-ale-one-mash-74927/


Some of the best beer I made, actually.

To partigyle, you have to mash enough for both beers. If you want a 1.115 BW and a 1.060 Pale, you need to mash with a target of 1.175.

well my main goal here is to brew a barleywine and I thought JZ's recipe looked good. I really don't want to mess with the recipe and to my understanding when brewing a large beer like this a lot of sugars are left. I was hoping to get a full 5 gallons of BW and then still be able to pull of 4-5 gallons of a pale ale (just to be able to get a bit more beer out of such a large grain bill).

So leaving the original recipe exactly as is, it sounds like this is not possible, is that right?

If I did try to pull of an additional 6 gallons or so for a pale ale (to boil down to 4-5) what would the gravity be and would I be at too much risk for extracting tannins even though I am batch sparging?

Well I think it is possible to do the partigyle without changing the recipe if you totally just wing it at the small beer.

Do the recipe as intended, get your boil volume for the barleywine and then when that is on the burner go back and start running water through the grains again. Now you don't really want to get below 1.010 since you'll start to get tanins (Make sure to add 5.2 buffer or some acid, this will also keep you from getting tannin extraction). You'll end up with some amount of some gravity wort... that you can then boil down to whatever gravity you want.

This is not a true partigyle, but not many people do true partigyles (3 beers, one from first runnings, and one from each double batch sparge) but it is in the same spirit.

The first thing to remember is if you do a normal 60 min boil with a big beer your efficiency for that beer will be very poor because you are not using much sparge water relative to the grain quantity. The difference in efficiency between what you get for the big beer and what you would normally get is where the sugars for the small beer come from.

If you are able to get 70-80% efficiency on your barleywine then don't bother with the small beer there won't be much left. However with a 1.115 OG and a 60 min boil you are likely to get 60% or less efficiency. This means you can sparge the grain so more and maybe get another 20% out of the grain. So you can figure a grain bill for the barleywine expecting 55-60% efficiency and your small beer will be the same grain bill only with about 20% efficiency. The ratios will of course vary depending on the size of the grain bill and efficiency of your lauter.

Your sparge volumes will probably be dictated by your MLT volume. The simplest method would be to add additional water at the end of the mash so that you sparge your pre-boil volume with the first draining. Then add the same amount back in for the second runnings. However volumes may dictate smaller sparges.

When I did the 09-09-09 barleywine I sparged twice for each. Or you could do as MTPilot explains and sparge 3 times, blending the 3 in ratios to get your desired preboil gravities. I made sure to have a few pounds of DME available to ensure my gravities were correct.

Craig

Assuming you have some software to help you out, I have some key learnings for you.

First, take your average efficiency and drop it by 20% in the software. Scale your recipe so that that new reduced efficiency is going to hit your desired OG with an assumed 120 minute boil. Adjust your strike to grain ratio so that you'll achieve your entire preboil volume with first runnings. This is really easy given the large grainbill.

Basically 24 lbs x 1.75 qts/lb gets you 10.5 gallons of strike. You'll lose about 2.5 gallons and run off about 8 gallons of high gravity wort. Boil that down to 5.5 for about 2 hours.

Now add your sparge in two batches of 3.5 gallons which you can boil down for your pale ale. This sparge runoff should equal about 20% efficiency (as per the original grainbill) so you can figure out what that gravity will be by copying the recipe with the same large grainbill but setting efficiency to 20%.

I did exactly what you want to do, Pava.
I used JZ's recipe to make 5 gallons each of Barleywine and a Special Bitter with 75% efficiency.
I mashed at 1.15 qt/# with 25.5# of grain.
The first runnings and batch sparge #1 (3.25 gallons) became the BW.
Sparges #2 & #3 (3.25 gallons each) became the Special Bitter.
I added 2 ounces each of the specialty grains to "cap" the second beer. These were to add a bit more color and flavor to the small beer. After tasting a sample of the SB at 3 weeks, I'd cap with a little more next time.

Oops. I actually used a different JZ BW recipe.
Mine was from the BCS book.
23# Maris Otter
1.25# Crystal 120
1.25# CaraMunich

thanks for all the responses everyone.

Bobby_M, I do have promash and your concept sounds like it should be easy enough to follow. I will try to make the necessary adjustments tonight (which should work without messing with the recipe too much).

One question, is having a thinner mash going to have a big impact on the final beer?

Other than that it sounds like this is a simple solution to my problem and should give me the 2 beers I was looking for.

Thanks again all.

-pava