Duchesse de Bourgogne

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pcrawford

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Had this for the second time on Tap this weekend. This stuff is amazing. Its a sour ale, but not too sour. It was great has anyone had something like this and how can I brew it?
 
I love it, but there's some keg variation. I've had some on draft before that tasting like carbonated balsamic vinegar. The bottles seem more stable, though.

The duchesse is a flemish red ale. These beers are fermented out to normal FG with an ale yeast, then inoculated with bacteria (such as Wyeast Roselare Blend). The bacteria form a pellicle on top of the beer and convert much of the remaining sugar, and sour the beer up right nice. This process takes upwards of a year.

I've got a Flanders Red (similar) planned. Listen to Jamil Z's podcast on Flanders Red if you wanna get into this...
 
Had this on tap for my first soured ale. Intense vinegar smell and flavor. It really turned me off to trying some others - but after Evan!'s posting I may pick up a bottle.

The cherry flavor was suprising and delicious, I just couldn't get past the vinegar aroma and flavor.
 
this beer is also blended. new beer and aged 18 month old beers are blended together for the final product.

I have a buddy who has a 18 month old version and is brewing a fresh batch soon to blend.
 
These beers are fermented out to normal FG with an ale yeast, then inoculated with bacteria (such as Wyeast Roselare Blend). The bacteria form a pellicle on top of the beer and convert much of the remaining sugar, and sour the beer up right nice. This process takes upwards of a year.

Actually the bugs are in the initial pitching but the sourness really comes on after about a year because the bugs take a long time. The reason Jamil uses the ale yeast first and then the bugs is so the beer isn't intensely sour and so he can get a consistent beer. The breweries get away with this by blending there beers. For example Rodenbach blends a combination of 3 month old non-oaked beer with 18 month oaked version to get a combination of sweetness and sourness. I personally love the sourness so I usually drink the Grand Cru which is unbended 18 month oaked version.

The back on the post I love the Dutchesse. After Rodenbach Grand Cru it is up on my list. I agree with the differences in the beer. The big bottles rocks comma the tap is still good and the small bottles are lacking.
 
Oooohhh, I've had this, in a bottle at a restaurant recently. I absolutely adore it - one of the best beers I've had in a long time. Flemish sour ales are rapidly becoming my favorite style.

You need Lactobacillus bacteria, as far as I know. I'm intimidated by using bacteria and different yeasts (Brettanomyces, for example) so I won't be making this for a while.
 
Actually the bugs are in the initial pitching but the sourness really comes on after about a year because the bugs take a long time. The reason Jamil uses the ale yeast first and then the bugs is so the beer isn't intensely sour and so he can get a consistent beer. The breweries get away with this by blending there beers. For example Rodenbach blends a combination of 3 month old non-oaked beer with 18 month oaked version to get a combination of sweetness and sourness. I personally love the sourness so I usually drink the Grand Cru which is unbended 18 month oaked version.

The back on the post I love the Dutchesse. After Rodenbach Grand Cru it is up on my list. I agree with the differences in the beer. The big bottles rocks comma the tap is still good and the small bottles are lacking.

Oh, when I said "these beers", I was referring to Flanders Red as a general style as you and I would make it. I don't claim to be an expert on making sour beers as I still have yet to make one, but I have done plenty of reading up on lambics, et al and am probably most impressed with the likes of Cantillon...who let their brews get naturally infected (at least, I'm pretty sure they still do, unless something's changed recently). Either way, you are correct that the commercial breweries do it differently than homebrewers usually do.
 
For those of you who really like the Flanders red... Keep your eye out for a brewery named Panil. It is an Italian brewery with a very low production, but this is far and away the best sour red I have had. It has a purple label with an oak cask on it, and is pricey at 25-28 for a 750 mL, but worth every penny. It is rare to come by, but if you see one, pick it up. You can blame me if you don't agree!
 
For those of you who really like the Flanders red... Keep your eye out for a brewery named Panil. It is an Italian brewery with a very low production, but this is far and away the best sour red I have had. It has a purple label with an oak cask on it, and is pricey at 25-28 for a 750 mL, but worth every penny. It is rare to come by, but if you see one, pick it up. You can blame me if you don't agree!


I have had Panil at a bar around here. It is a wonderful beer. It was 26 for a 750 at the bar. I have been looking for it at the locale stores with no luck.

mike
 
I love Duchesse , but I don't think I have ever had two bottles taste the same. Some bottles have been reallly really sour other have been not so much.
 
If you can find it ... Monk's Cafe Flemish sour is also very good. I find it not as sweet at duchesse .. but it is SOOOO good!!!!

Mike
 
I know this is an old thread but I just had some Duchesse de Bourgogne at Bistro Campagne in Chicago and it is fantastic. Sweet cherries and raspberries and sour balance. Rich body but only 6% abv. Wonderful stuff. Was tempted to try it after having a Monk's Cafe Flemish at the Whole Foods Beer Bar which I also thought was amazing. Wow. Brave New World. :mug:
 
For those of you who really like the Flanders red... Keep your eye out for a brewery named Panil. It is an Italian brewery with a very low production, but this is far and away the best sour red I have had. It has a purple label with an oak cask on it, and is pricey at 25-28 for a 750 mL, but worth every penny. It is rare to come by, but if you see one, pick it up. You can blame me if you don't agree!

Are you talking about Barrique? Panil makes some amazing beer for sure.

As for Duchesse, I can't really drink it anymore. When I was first introduced to sours I thought it was interesting, but now it is cloyingly sweet and I can't get past a couple of sips. The beer is backsweetened far too much in my opinion.
 
To adress my feeling for the Duchesse... I have a personal relationship with her. The Duchesse was my first sour beer and literally changed my life. I will always love her.

That said, The Duchesse is maybe the most inconsistent commercial product I have encountered. The batch to batch variance is astounding.

Sweet vinegar, sour, cloying, in your face, The Duchesse de Bourgonge!
 
I recently did a side by side with the R. Grand Cru and traditional; surprisingly, I much preferred the Grand Cru counter to my normal preference.

I have never been inspired by Monk's Cafe.

I am going to buy some Duchesse tonight.
 
I recently did a side by side with the R. Grand Cru and traditional; surprisingly, I much preferred the Grand Cru counter to my normal preference.

I have never been inspired by Monk's Cafe.

I am going to buy some Duchesse tonight.

Yeah, I'm not a Monk's Cafe fan, either. These days, I'm spoiled by Russian River offerings being so readily available. And I hear there's some new Cantillon coming to our market, so I need to get on that.
 
I don't get Russian River, but God do I wish I did. There stuff is righteous. Beautification was one of the better beers I have had.

Have you had Consecration yet? Beatification is a pretty fantastic beer for sure. but I think Consecration wins. They're all great. The Toronado 20th anniversary beer was perfect.
 
I had the Duchesse on tap at a sour tasting event last summer. It was the most incredible beer I have ever tasted. Full and complex, it had a tail that would make the finest wines proud. I've never had a beer since that compares.

Unfortunately, this includes the bottled Duchesse. Still excellent, but not the same.

Sadly, I can't find the Russian River offerings anywhere in HB. We may be an hour away from San Diego on the freeway, but we're worlds away in beer.
 
I had the Duchesse on tap at a sour tasting event last summer. It was the most incredible beer I have ever tasted. Full and complex, it had a tail that would make the finest wines proud. I've never had a beer since that compares.

Unfortunately, this includes the bottled Duchesse. Still excellent, but not the same.

Sadly, I can't find the Russian River offerings anywhere in HB. We may be an hour away from San Diego on the freeway, but we're worlds away in beer.

That's so sad. You should come down for a day and get some better beer. :) The small store close to my house even carries it. And they're two blocks from Hamilton's.
 
Have you had Consecration yet? Beatification is a pretty fantastic beer for sure. but I think Consecration wins. They're all great. The Toronado 20th anniversary beer was perfect.

Sadly, I have not found Consecration yet. I only get these at beer fests or the random find or opportunity. I have had Beautification twice but none of the others.
 
Beatification check.

I failed on my mission last night... no Duchesse at my beer store. damn.

Oh well I came home with this:
Enigma for New Glarus Brewing

"Some people paint, some sing, others write ... I brew." - Daniel Carey

A few times a year, we will cut Dan loose to brew whatever he chooses, uncensored, uncut, unplugged. Always handcrafted, this beer is brewed for the adventurous soul. This is a very limited edition and we make no promises to ever brew this style again.

A complex and intriguing original. The mystery began with wild yeast spontaneously fermenting a rich treasure of malted barley and cherries. Unlined Oak casks breathe deep vanilla hues and chords of smoke into this sour brown ale. Our Master Brewer has forged a smooth garnet tapestry that defies description. Wander off the beaten path.

Style Sour Brown Ale
Flavor Defies description.
Alcohol 5.5% by volume
Available in 4-packs and cases

They released this a couple years ago and I remembered it being pretty good so I picked up a four pack. It is a nice and funky beer. The cherries and New Glarus' wild culture makes for a strange sour beer with a very smooth mouthfeel.

Perhaps we could set up a trade for some West-to-Midwest swapping???

I also hooked a four pack of 2009 Samiclause and a Fantome Saison. :rockin:
 
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