Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

lunshbox said:

Fantastic. Thanks for the info. I had a RIS that I ended up brewing on a friend's system (20 gal) because I couldn't figure out how to stuff 25 lbs of grain in my mash tun.

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It can be done. Oh, one other thing. I did an overnight mash for that beer. It probably helped my efficiency a little, I know it has the other times I've done it. If you're not going to do that I recommend at least a 2 hour mash.

^^^^^^ What a ripoff.

^^^^^^ Whatever do you mean?

^^^^^^ Sounds like shuckit had a bad day. "relax, have a home brew..." - respect to Charlie Papazian.

Probably posted to wrong thread.

Question. If I were to do a half batch, what container would you suggest using for secondary fermentation? I'm worried using the 5 gallon carboy would be too much air space and oxidize.

A 3 gallon better bottle, or something in the 3 gallin size. I made a 2.75gl batch and used my 3 gallon better bottle cause its what I had.

Jeetaman- 2 things. The krausen on this is ridiculous. You'll need the extra head space, so just go ahead and put it in a normal fermentation bucket. You'll be fine.
More importantly- why only do a 1/2 batch rather than just brewing a full batch? You'll be glad you did!

Edit: just realized you said secondary. Sorry.
So never mind about the first part. Only brewing a 1/2 batch still pertains.

Question for CSI regarding their document entitled 'single decoction'.

The math computing the xDecoctVol isn't correct or has a typo.

My spreadsheet reads 27.32% as opposed to 27.92%. How are you getting 27.92%?

Also, it's not indicated how to calculate the Simple Decoct Vol w/ no thermal loss.

These numbers vary significantly from the math given in Palmers 'How To Brew.'

Of course there are probably many methods of determining decoction volumes.

A sample of the spreadsheet made with the information in the 'Single Decoction' document:

The reason for doing a half batch is space and equipment. I only have a 5 gallon rubbermaid for my mash tun.
Also, I'm new to AG brewing, so I don't want to screw up a big batch if I can avoid it.

ShootsNRoots said:

Question for CSI regarding their document entitled 'single decoction'.

The math computing the xDecoctVol isn't correct or has a typo.

My spreadsheet reads 27.32% as opposed to 27.92%. How are you getting 27.92%?

Also, it's not indicated how to calculate the Simple Decoct Vol w/ no thermal loss.

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Quick answer on thermal loss. In the formula nTempLossEstimate should be 0 if you are calculating for zero thermal loss. If creating the spreadsheet make sure you have a variable marked "Heat Loss Factor" as in our example and make sure and set it to 0, (only if you expect zero thermal loss...usually an unlikely scenario IMHO).

I'll look into the rest of the the questions later today to assist.

You guys are taking all the fun out of this hobby. ; )

CSI said:

Quick answer on thermal loss. In the formula nTempLossEstimate should be 0 if you are calculating for zero thermal loss. If creating the spreadsheet make sure you have a variable marked "Heat Loss Factor" as in our example and make sure and set it to 0.

I'll look into the rest of the the questions later today to assist.

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Shoots is right about the spreadsheet calc. It had a misplaced bracket that pushed the decoction volume off by 5 fluid ounces or in terms of actual affect on the decoction final temp about +0.31 deg F. Not a great concern but certainly worth the catch. The rest is standard spec (Palmer, Zainasheff, Siebel). I'll get the doc updated when I get some extra time next week. I love this board.

Now back to the fun stuff

Apologies for taking the fun out. I should've just sent CSI a PM.

I will be brewing the Candi Syrup Westvleteren 12 recipe on Saturday. However, the recipe does not state when to add the Candi Syrup.

From reading this thread the Candi Syrup can be added at the beginning or the end of the boil with a change in flavor profile (probably caused by isomerization of hop oils if added at the beginning?).

What is the flavor profile when the Candi Syrup is added at the beginning of the boil (60 min)?
What is the flavor profile when the Candi Syrup is added at the end of the boil (flameout)?

There is no good reason to add at the beginning of the boil for this recipe. It won't change the flavor profile just reduce the efficiency of hop acid isomerization so you'd have to add slightly more hops to get the same bitterness.

You could also add to the fermentor, but with the risk of contamination.

I haven't tried them all, but the difference in the three methods is probably very slight if you could even detect it at all (especially with aging). For me adding at 5-10 mins before flamout is the easiest way and helps preserve the aroma of syrup.

I have always added it at flameout.

ShootsNRoots said:

What is the flavor profile when the Candi Syrup is added at the beginning of the boil (60 min)?
What is the flavor profile when the Candi Syrup is added at the end of the boil (flameout)?

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Due to one of our customers in Iceland having syrup burn on direct contact with a heating element in the boil we have since recommended additions at flame-out. We ordinarily make our adjunct additions at t-10 min, (or flameout).

Flavor should not be dramatically affected by the timing of the addition.

06/15/2013

Brewed CSI 017x today. Crush was set a little tight (scared) but didn't cause any problems. Hit 1.111 OG. Diluted to ~1.093+ (fermenter got too full). Followed decoction schedule; hit all temps. Need to pull thicker mash next time; preheated pot and cast decocted mash onto hot pot. Cooled to ~64F. O2 for 2 minutes. Pitched decanted, stirplate, WLP530 -> 2L -> 4L starter. Started bubbling within 4hrs. Will ramp temp 2 degrees every 24 hrs until 79F degrees. Then hold (or raise to ~82) till 1.013 and proceed with CSI instruction. (Freezer/Fermwrap temp control)

Color in fermenter is dark; no guess on SRM. Total of 9 gallons collected -> boiled down to ~5.5 gallons before dilution but there was a lot of trub; didn't want to use hop bags as wanted full hop utilization. May have caramelized sugar a tad due to long boil but really not worried about it.

Used Bru N' Water Black Balanced w/ Ward Labs report to adjust Mash and sparge water.

Used Wyeast Nutrient, DAP and Whirlfloc.

Added 2 pkgs - Candi Syrup D180 at flameout.

Went fairly smooth (phone call interruptions aside); makes for a long brew day.

Thanks to Saq, CSI and all who contributed to this thread.

Look forward to advancing this brew to the next stage.

(FYI, this was done in an apartment with an electric stove top. It worked very well. I've placed 1in. diameter x 1 1/2 in. length of copper pipe beneath the middle of the burners (under the cross sections) so they don't bend or flex down in the middle due to the aluminum decoction pots bottom "popping" down in the middle. As long as a pot is not "dragged" across the burners (thus bending the 3 cross section supports) they hold up very well.)

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06/23/2013

Fermentation went as expected. Set temp controller to 80F max / 64F min. Temp controller initially brought the temp down to 61F due to 2 degree differential; the fermentation heat brought it up to 80F in about 48 hours. Fermentation itself kept it there for the next couple days; the last couple days were helped by the fermwrap. Likes to get hotter than 80 during the first few days, but temp controller kept it in check.

Racked off yeast; F.G. was a weak 1.013 strong 1.012; crashing to 57F for 3 - 4 days per CSI instruction.

Smells wonderful. No off smells detected. Smells spicy and candy like.

Requires a *large* carboy with a blowoff tube. Used 6.5g glass carboy. Worked wonderfully.

Collected ~5.5 gallons of liquid.

Huge amount of trub and yeast in carboy. Approximately 4in. thick.

Color in carboy is dark, almost black; color in hydrometer tube was medium-dark brown.

Look forward to advancing this brew to the next stage.

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06/26/2013

F.G. 1.012; Racked off about an inch of trub and yeast in secondary to tertiary. Will hold at 45F for 8+ weeks before bottling.

Volume is at 5 gallons; perhaps a touch over; should be able to fill 48 12 oz. bottles at bottling time or perhaps I'll spring for heavier bottles.

Look forward to advancing this brew to the next stage.

bottlebomber said:

^^^^^^ Whatever do you mean?

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This wasn't directed at you. If you notice, there was a post deleted between mine and your's. It was a plug for a website selling westy XII for the "low cost of" ~$40 a bottle.

Guess I need to kill a keg, I'll have room to set this in my lagering fridge when Oktoberfest is kegged end of the month

Brewed 6 gallons of an amped-up version of the traditional recipe (SG 1.130) in February, and bottled it two weeks ago. It's a tad flat (duh!) but is tasting fantastic. The brandy barrel pairs nicely with the flavors as well.

shuckit said:

This wasn't directed at you. If you notice, there was a post deleted between mine and your's. It was a plug for a website selling westy XII for the "low cost of" ~$40 a bottle.

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Dang... (w/ confirmed, local buyers)...at that price I'd sell the rest of my brick! It would be painful... but I now have 5 gal of CSI's recipe in the keezer and it's great (though still under carbonated).

BTW... I found my carboy with its bung popped (the heat must have built up enough pressure) so I kegged it immediately. So much for bottle conditioning - I prefer kegs anyway. I have no idea how long it was like that, but there was nothing growing on the surface... worst case, I'll add K-sorbate.

CSI, what is the efficiency set for your recipes on the website?

Oophaga said:

CSI, what is the efficiency set for your recipes on the website?

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Ours is routinely 76%. Sometimes up to 78%.

Below is a pic of our 017x Westy 12 clone brewed in October 2012 and bottled late December 2013. It's about 6 months in bottle conditioning and still very young but it is nice to take a sample now and again to see how it's aging. This one is aging very well.

Having patience sucks... My bottles are laying down for a nap, I have at least another 7 months... Having a pipeline of this beer is definitely in the works.

Gixxer said:

Having patience sucks... My bottles are laying down for a nap, I have at least another 7 months... Having a pipeline of this beer is definitely in the works.

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One nice thing about having a pipeline in place is the amazing long term conditioning that takes place. We just opened a Westy 12 clone almost 3 years in bottle conditioning and it was better than the year 1 and year 2

What water profiles have people used for brewing this?

cjalderman said:

What water profiles have people used for brewing this?

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Good question, I am now curious too! I used house water through a Brita with campden for the chloramine.

Gixxer said:

Good question, I am now curious too! I used house water through a Brita with campden for the chloramine.

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Good question. The actual treated profile is an unknown, however, the municipal water profiles are published. We have a doc here on those:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/common_belgian_water_profiles.pdf

cjalderman said:

What water profiles have people used for brewing this?

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I have used the Bru N' Water Black Balanced as well as the EZ Water Calculator V3.

All of these recipes specify "cold pitch @6XF self-rise to 80F+" as the fermentation profile.

What they don't specify is the ideal ramp time. What if the temperature rise from 64F to 80F occurs over the course of 24 hrs, 36 hrs, 48 hrs, etc... Too soon, too many fusels, too late not enough esters and low attenuation.

What is the ideal ramp (self-rise) time from 64F to 80F?

ShootsNRoots said:

All of these recipes specify "cold pitch @6XF self-rise to 80F+" as the fermentation profile.

What they don't specify is the ideal ramp time. What if the temperature rise from 64F to 80F occurs over the course of 24 hrs, 36 hrs, 48 hrs, etc... Too soon, too many fusels, too late not enough esters and low attenuation.

What is the ideal ramp (self-rise) time from 64F to 80F?

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I'm sure CSI will give a more definitive answer since it is their recipe, but my primary fermentation was done in about 5 days. I saw the thing take off like a rocket and by 24 hrs it was at 72° it stabilized around there between 26-36 hours and I bumped it up to 80 over the next 12 hours.

I did not detect any excess fusels, or "hotness", when I transferred and it was wonderfully estery with a hint of spice that am sure will all mellow out while it ages.

ShootsNRoots said:

All of these recipes specify "cold pitch @6XF self-rise to 80F+" as the fermentation profile.

What they don't specify is the ideal ramp time. What if the temperature rise from 64F to 80F occurs over the course of 24 hrs, 36 hrs, 48 hrs, etc... Too soon, too many fusels, too late not enough esters and low attenuation.

What is the ideal ramp (self-rise) time from 64F to 80F?

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We've been ramping as evenly as possible from pitch to 79F over 7 days.

PJoyce85 said:

I'm sure CSI will give a more definitive answer since it is their recipe, but my primary fermentation was done in about 5 days. I saw the thing take off like a rocket and by 24 hrs it was at 72° it stabilized around there between 26-36 hours and I bumped it up to 80 over the next 12 hours.

I did not detect any excess fusels, or "hotness", when I transferred and it was wonderfully estery with a hint of spice that am sure will all mellow out while it ages.

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CSI said:

We've been ramping as evenly as possible from pitch to 79F over 7 days.

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@CSI - How are you cooling? What is your temperature differential? Obviously the yeast doesn't stall when aggressively and artificially limited by temperature control?

@PJoyce - Good to know as that's how my last two fermentations went (planned to use the CSI ramp but was concerned about under attenutation). Self Rise over the course of ~36 - 48 hrs to 80F holding it for ~5 days. Had to reign in the temps around the 24 hr mark to keep from rising too fast.

ShootsNRoots said:

@CSI - How are you cooling? What is your temperature differential? Obviously the yeast doesn't stall when aggressively and artificially limited by temperature control?

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Jacketed fermentors/p. glycol FG/variable speed screw pump driven by .33HP DC 90V, (not centrifugal), and themoelectric coolant sump. The differential range is -0.2F to +0.45F.

(I generally avoid centrifugal pumps due to problems with slow priming and impeller and seal maintenance).

CSI said:

Jacketed fermentors/p. glycol FG/variable speed screw pump driven by .33HP DC 90V, (not centrifugal), and themoelectric envelope. The differential range is -0.2F to +0.45F.

(I generally avoid centrifugal pumps due to priming problems and maintenance issues).

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Wow! Good answer Wish I had that sort of set up

How much would the yeast's heat overpower air cooling? I only used heat and a cool basement (supplemented with ice and fan) to limit the yeast on either end. I don't use evaporative / wet cooling because it's difficult to control, but I can't afford much else.

Does this ramp change the ester profile much from a natural rise and artificial hold at temps? Or does it mainly just allow for consistency?

malweth said:

Wow! Good answer Wish I had that sort of set up

How much would the yeast's heat overpower air cooling? I only used heat and a cool basement (supplemented with ice and fan) to limit the yeast on either end. I don't use evaporative / wet cooling because it's difficult to control, but I can't afford much else.

Does this ramp change the ester profile much from a natural rise and artificial hold at temps? Or does it mainly just allow for consistency?

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This is out of my expertise but I would suspect if you have *enough* external air cooling it could work. An HVAC specialist could answer much better.

Got my starter going today, plan to brew on Saturday! This will be my first time doing a mash in a cooler tun instead of using the BIAB method, anyone have any pointers for this mash schedule?

I won the Belgian strong ale category in alabamas first bjcp homebrew competition with the new world recipe. I have the old world conditioning right now currently only 2 weeks in the bottle. Thanks to saq and csi for all the hard work put into this. I bottled my new world in January and it is seriously improving with time. Going to wait several more months before opening the next.