Brew Pal software in the iTunes App Store

BP uses a 20 minute IBU calculation for FWH

I lookedaround a bit this morning. Because there isn't a lot ofhard data on first wort hopping IBUs, a 20 minute boil equivalent is a standard assumption. Some programs allow the user to customize the assumption.

Yes 20 minutes sounds fine, but it should be 20 minutes + length of boil, not just 20 minutes.

Paul

What's your process? I'm curious partly because I haven't done it before and partly because I'm considering it.

1. What percentage of hops are going into the first wort? Are the pellet, plug, or flower?
2. What hop are you using and what's its AA?
3. If you didn't put these hops into the first wort, where would you add them in the boil?
4. How hot is your first wort? How much splashing/oxygenation takes place as it runs into the brewpot?
5. Are you infusion mashing or decoction mashing? How much hot and cold break do you leave behind in the brewpot?

First wort hops go in the kettle with your first runnings from the lauter tun. They are at 70 or 80C until the sparge is complete and you start to boil. They then see the full boil time.

Beernik said:

What's your process? I'm curious partly because I haven't done it before and partly because I'm considering it.

1. What percentage of hops are going into the first wort? Are the pellet, plug, or flower?
2. What hop are you using and what's its AA?
3. If you didn't put these hops into the first wort, where would you add them in the boil?
4. How hot is your first wort? How much splashing/oxygenation takes place as it runs into the brewpot?
5. Are you infusion mashing or decoction mashing? How much hot and cold break do you leave behind in the brewpot?

Click to expand...

I know how it's done in general. I also know that first wort hops are isomerized very differently as first wort vs. boil hops. How hops are isomerized in the boil is very well known.

How hops are isomerized in first wort is mostly being guessed at right now. It's thought that how much oxignation of the hops takes place affects it. How much hot and cold break affects it. If more than 1/3 of the hopping takes place in as first wort affects it. And the additional aroma that comes from first wort hops increases the perception of bitterness.

So if you give me some specifics on your process, I might be able to help figure out why you are getting different results than the calculation.

I'm getting the wrong IBU's because the amount of time the first wort hops are in the boil is not included in the calculation. Should be 20 minutes plus time in boil which is 60 minutes for a total of 80 minutes. I can get around the problem by not using the first wort option and just adding them to the boil for 80 minutes I guess. But this causes some other problems since the boil is only 60 minutes and the boil off would be affected. I guess another way to deal with it is to just add to boil for 60 minutes and account for first wort affect by telling it I'm using 10% more hops.

I suggest reading this article on a couple side-by-sides for pilsners.

http://www.kotmf.com/articles/fwh.php?PHPSESSID=1fc6ce0ba36cd5e5fcefe1c2664d1b1c

If 1/3 of the aroma hops were moved from aroma hopping to first wort hops, the increase of IBUs was only about 10%. If 50% was moves from aroma to first wort, the increase in IBUs was about 20%.

Even for the 50%, that's not a huge increase in utilization. You'd get a bigger increase from moving a hop addition from 40 minutes to 60 minutes. That's a 30% increase in utilization for a 1.050 wort.

The reason you can't assume you get full boil utilization from first wort hops is because the some of the alpha acids will physically bind to hot break material. These alpha acids will be left behind in the brewpot. Of course that means brewers will get different results if they decoct or infusion mash.

Thanks for the article. I see your point. It does seem that other brewing software is handling perhaps incorrectly. For example Beer Smith would give higher IBU's for First Wort than Full Boil, while the article you refer to suggests that they should only be higher than a late addition. Perhaps it is time for an experiment.

Paul

LayMeister said:

Thanks for the article. I see your point. It does seem that other brewing software is handling perhaps incorrectly. For example Beer Smith would give higher IBU's for First Wort than Full Boil, while the article you refer to suggests that they should only be higher than a late addition. Perhaps it is time for an experiment.

Paul

Click to expand...

I think in the article, the experiment only measured the effects of moving some or all of the late hops additions to FWH. It did not, however, measure the effects of moving e.g. a bittering addition to FWH. If you are changing a 60 minute full boil addition to FWH, just from my own experience I think you are going to see higher IBUs.

I love this app. However, I'm just starting out as an extract brewer and I find the extract options a bit lacking... especially partial boil and efficiency. When I enter the batch amount (5 gallons) the app automatically calculates a 6.11 gallon boil. If I boil 3 gallons then my hop utilization is different. In addition the main screen shows 75% efficiency and extract is theoretically 100%.

From what I can see this is the only side by side experiment at a brewery level where they actually measured IBUs in a lab. But they don't dive the hopping schedule for either method and they only used low humulone and cohumulone noble hops for bittering and aroma.

High humulone or cohumulone hops may act differently.

An option to adjust the FWH should be included because the method has so many unknowns in how it works.
......

If you want to do PMs and adjust efficiency, you have to go to the options page. There is a little gear wheel in the top right corner. On the grain bill page, the options will let you change the default batch size to 3 gallons and increase the efficiency.

On the sparge page, you can set it to partial mash. But it will probably tell you that you need to have a starting boil of 4 gallons to end up with 3 gallons post boil. I'm assuming it will adjust your IBUs accordingly.

It's not easy or intuitive. It took me 4 days just to figure out the gear wheel did anything.

Just wanted to add my congrats on a fantastic app. Downloaded Brew Pal after I got my iPhone yesterday and love it. Great job, and thanks!

I'd just like to say I use this all the time to fiddle with recipes while my Beersmith on my main computer at home holds my Brew Log.

Love them both.

I had some suggestions to this one, but can't for the life of me think of them right now...

I've come to the conclusion that you have the best stragety. Calculate in in BrewPal but don't store it there. If you make any kind of adjustments to the default settings it changes all the other beer records.

I suggest adding an inventory where I can list my complete inventory of grain/hops/yeast. When I use a certain amount of grain, it subtracts from my inventory...same goes for hops and yeast. If you added how much hops AA goes down after time as well, this thing would be even better.

Just a thought...but I use your app all the time. Thanks.

Ok...just remembered at least one suggestion

Have an "Add" button on the Hops/Grain screens instead of a save

For example if I am adding 3 additions of Tettang I hate having to scroll down to Tet once for 60m then again for 30m and yet again for 15m. Having a + that would add it to my recipe and leave me where I am would make me happy. After all I can always delete it from my recipe if I add in error.

I'd like to give big props to Brewpal, it is a truly awesome app! It is worth MUCH more than it's 99cent price tag.

I'm looking for 2 ingredients in this software and not finding them. Torrified wheat and malto dextrine.

I think it has Dextrine...but you can add anything you want.

I've added a whole bunch of stuff.

Speaking of adding malts, I would like to add torrified wheat and acidulated malt but I cannot find the "p" values anywhere. Any suggestions from my brewing brothers and sisters?

The Brewmaster's Bible says 25 - 30 for torrefied grains, 30 - 35 for acid malt.

I use the BrewBuilder at Ed's BrewmastersWarehouse.com to get all my numbers

Then I save the recipes there too so I can buy them at my leisure

Thanks fellas

I am loving playing around with this. I can't wait to see how much more is corrected and/or added on to this little program. Way cool. I see a lot of good suggestions for improvements. Worth way more than a buck!!! Great job!

Bought the app and really enjoyed using it. Makes recording your brew data painless as well as providing guidance along with what you see when brewing.

A couple of things I'd like to see.

A more flexible handing of step mashing when you're using your own heat and not adding water to increase temperature. If I enter 0.00 infusion volume for the various steps, nothing is saved and the step does not show up in the recipe data sheet.

I wasnt able to tell if there was an audible sound letting the user know its its time to start the next mash step or perform the next addition during the boil. An ability to alert the user and pause to allow the step to occur in the mash would be useful.

Other than that, the app is wonderful.

Hendo

I downloaded this when I got my iPhone about 3 weeks ago & love it. I am having trouble with one recipe though. 2 different online calculators show 4% ABV for my nut brown ale, but Brewpal shows it as 4.9%.

Here is the recipe:

5# English Pale 38PPG, 3L
1# Victory Malt 35PPG, 25L
8oz British Crystal 50-60L 34PPG, 55L
8oz British Crystal 70-80L 33PPG, 75L
6oz Chocolate Malt (US) 29PPG, 350L

Everything else is calculated the same, but the ABV is off. The pre-boil OG in Brewpal is the post-boil OG in the other sites calculators (they only use post-boil).

Any ideas?

I am having a problem. I was using it and it just went off, like it does sometimes. This time I haven't been able to get it to load back up. Any suggestions?

WortMonger said:

I am having a problem. I was using it and it just went off, like it does sometimes. This time I haven't been able to get it to load back up. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

I've had luck rebooting my iPod from scratch.... Just power it all the way down, and then back on.

Good luck.

WortMonger said:

I am having a problem. I was using it and it just went off, like it does sometimes. This time I haven't been able to get it to load back up. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

That happened to me once before and what I ended up doing was uninstalling it and then reinstalling it. It sucks because you lose all of your settings and saved recipies but these things happen sometimes.

You may want to try restoring the ipod/iphone with itunes

I think the program leaks memory like crazy, which makes it unstable.

Leaks memory? I have wondered about the program (still like it) since downloading. It does shut down quite often when entering data, forcing you to reopen it. Could you explain what leaking memory is to me? I don't understand that sort of thing. I figure the creator can fix any of these problems easily, given time to do so.

I haven't even started to critique it yet, but I am not liking certain things. After I get more used to it I will give my advice on changes. I will say I do wish it allowed more control on every step, such as the allowing of metric and US choices independently for hops/grains/mashing/etc. Also, allowing a chosen attenuation specifically to get a more accurate "per person" FG. The spectrum it gives for yeasts makes it miss style profiles sometimes, even when you know your yeast will finish it drier. Maybe this could be accomplished via the mash temperatures (ex. lower mash temperature allowing for more attenuation or something similar), but I don't know. I do love this little program though. Great idea!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_leak?wasRedirected=true

Essentially, a program stores something in memory and then doesn't release it before storing the next piece of memory. So the program keeps using more and more memory until there isn't any left to take. Once all the available memory is taken, it crashes out.

I agree that the programmer should track down the memory leak and fix it. But I don't see him publishing am update any time soon.

I would agree with Wortmonger about the mash temp vs attenuation thing. Mine crashes out occasionally but not to the extent he's experiencing.
There is a new version of the software in the works, and there have been quite a few updates since I bought it. I'd like to see more grains listed and maltodextrine, which I still have not found.

Mine crashes out at least once while I'm using it especially if I'm altering my grain bill a lot while formulating a new recipe.

NorCalAngler said:

I love this app. However, I'm just starting out as an extract brewer and I find the extract options a bit lacking... especially partial boil and efficiency. When I enter the batch amount (5 gallons) the app automatically calculates a 6.11 gallon boil. If I boil 3 gallons then my hop utilization is different. In addition the main screen shows 75% efficiency and extract is theoretically 100%.

Click to expand...

What he said! ^^^^

Anybody else running this on iPad?

I can't get the decimal point to work. Always works on my iPod touch

I use it with no problems. Very handy for making last minute adjustments when the LHBS doesn't have what I planned to use.

Ditto the comments on memory leaks. All computers benefit from an occasional restart.

Well, I just lost all my data again! I really like using this thing, but man is this getting irritating. If they offered a fully functional upgrade with weekly updates fixing problems, I would pay $20 or so bucks no problem!!! Is it rude to like something but hate it at the same time? I see such potential in this, but if it doesn't quit dumping my inputted grains/hops/yeasts then I am going to quit using it as a brew designer and only as an adjustment calculator in the grain store. It really is worth every penny I spent on it though... all 99 of them

I'm not upset like I wasted my money, just that I keep wasting my time and good ideas. I still can't get the email the recipe thing to work for me so I at least have a hard copy to reference.