My sweet baby pellicle

Some of you may have read my other thread about a botched Saison I'm experiencing. Today the odor had changed from "unique" to raunchy. I think the taste is even starting to get affected. For those who have that sick desire to watch a train wreck, here's a portrait of my slick, white little baby. I had another, better picture but my camera ate it.



Suffice it to say I'm pretty steamed that it ended up like this. I can't even harvest the yeast because it's cross-contaminated with brett or something. Personally, I blame myself for letting it sit and condition so long after fermentation. The high fermentation temperature is probably not to blame, so that leaves me with the theory of letting it sit too long with no CO2 blowing out. Maybe it's a design flaw with the Minibrew fermenter - my sanitation was no better and no worse than usual.

So, I guess I should dump this 8 gallons of crap water, eh? I'm not sure if there's any hope of redemption for this one.

Ride it out man.

olllllo said:

Ride it out man.

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Will do. It's about all I can do - no way I'm dumping 8 gallons. : / It'll be the third week of fermentation/conditioning this Sunday. Do you think there's a chance this will ever "clear up" or maybe fade? I just want to know if I should bottle as scheduled or let it sit longer.

I have 4 starters in the fridge, which I hope to spontaneously ferment in the hope that I can create a phlambic. I am expecting disaster and hoping for a pleasant surprise.

Beer is a happy accident.

A brett infection might make it an awsome beer or not.

Sit on it if you can, or rack off into a more managable size. Don't bottle until you're a believer.

seek comfort in knowing nothing can grow in a fermented beer that can harm you...maybe make you nauseated but thats it. If the gravity changed enough to where its over 5% then your good. Personally i always ferment in a glass carboy with a good seal if i know its going to be for a long period. The brew buckets arnt completly airtight and thus i was never comfortable for long standing fermentations in them. Havent had an infected batch in either however. Knock on wood

scinerd3000 said:

If the gravity changed enough to where its over 5% then your good.

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What I don't understand is that there should've been about 6% in there by the time this started taking hold.

EinGutesBier said:

What I don't understand is that there should've been about 6% in there by the time this started taking hold.

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I think he means past the kill you point(once you're past 5% nothing harmful can grow/live), I have an intentional pellicle on an ~11 ABV beer right now, and some strains of Brett supposedly can live in up to an 18% ABV environment. It can 'take hold' at much higher ABV %'s.
BTW, that's a bad pic, but are you sure its not just unsettled yeast/krausen/etc. ?

landhoney said:

I think he means past the kill you point(once you're past 5% nothing harmful can grow/live), I have an intentional pellicle on an ~11 ABV beer right now, and some strains of Brett supposedly can live in up to an 18% ABV environment. It can 'take hold' at much higher ABV %'s.
BTW, that's a bad pic, but are you sure its not just unsettled yeast/krausen/etc. ?

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I'm pretty sure sure that it's not krausen anymore...the foam in the middle might be, but I'm pretty sure the other stuff isn't. Btw, I'm glad you responded - your insight would be much appreciated. I'll get a better picture up asap.

Here's some better pictures of the inside of the fermenter and the film developing on top. Sorry for the redundancy, but I figure one of these pictures has to be decent. :cross: In all fairness it is kind of tough to shoot inside the fermenter and get a decent pic.

even if bret lives to 18% its still not harmfull. People used to joke that i was going to go blind by brewing my own beer (referring to the moonshining days) but nothing like that will happen with beer. Stuff may grow in it and taste shtty but your not going to die from anything growing in it is what i meant. That being said i found this guy doing a saison and his looks pretty gross too so maybe thats the way its supposed to come out?



have you tasted yours?

I dunno, from those pics...I have had a similar thing which appeared to be a Pellicle but was merely something (I am not sure what) floating atop the surface, but a Pellicle will cover the entire thing. You should see my Cider Vinegar, or some of my Lacto-fermented food items. And to be honest, it takes a good deal of time and care to get some of these things established unless you are trying to do so.

That hardly looks like a pellicle, in my opinion.

I'd just ride it out as someone suggested.

yeah, I think it looks like foam. I wouldn't really worry about it just yet. Saisons are super funky, give it some time!

I can update it with pictures, but I have to say it's definitely a pellicle for sure. There's a milky, semi-transparent skin over the top of the beer that has some veining in it. Looks like a pellicle all right. The good news is that it doesn't smell too bad, unless I take out a sample. If I let it sit, though, the odor dissipates and it's not too bad. It doesn't taste too bad, just has more of a crisp acidity to it, with a more mellow citric flavor and a mustiness of some sort. Maybe if I bottle this and let it age, it'll turn out all right.

A couple questions, though, for anyone who might have an answer.

1.) Is there a way to tell if this is indeed Brett or Pedio, or any specific bug out of the plethora out there?

2.) Depending on what it is, how long do I have to let it sit in the fermenter before the bug has run its course and it's okay to bottle? How long should I let it run? Or can I just bottle it and let it finish out in conditioning? Luckily, it has hit an FG of 1.009 and has dried out as much as it will...so no bottle bombs to worry about.

3.) Will boiling water and bleach solution mixed with scrubbing followed by a PBW treatment properly sanitize my minibrew fermenter? Finally, does this mean I should make a gasket for the lid on my minibrew fermenter?

Thanks guys, for helping me see the light at the end of the bottle, so to speak...

1.) I don't think there's any easy way to tell for the typical homebrewer. If you're familiar with cells, it would be quite easy to distinguish yeast (saccharomyces, brettanomyces) from bacteria (pediococcus). As for the specific strain of Brett (lambicus, brux., etc) that would be more difficult.

An easier way to tell intuitively is by the characteristics. From what you describe, with the mustiness, it's probably Brett. Perhaps lambicus since you also describe acidity. Pedio will give an overly lactic (acidic) tone - much moreso than the Brett will Think sauerkraut and real kosher dill pickles when you think pedio.

2.) I would still wait a couple of months. Like you said, it's already fairly dry so you shouldn't have to worry about bottle bombs, but Brettanomyces will still continue to ferment more than the ale yeast (the saccharomyces) has. I had a beer finish at 1.012 that I pitched Brett into, and 3 months later it's down to 1.008. I'm rather confident this is complete, but time won't hurt it. I'd ballpark 2-3 months just to let it develop its character.

3.) It's at least worth a try, I'd just try it with another Belgian I don't have much experience with plastic, but I'd assume you wouldn't want to be scrubbing it regardless.

any chance you have access to a microscope?

scinerd3000 said:

any chance you have access to a microscope?

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Can't say I do, much less one that would be powerful enough. :cross: I'll just assume we've got some Brett here.

There are quite a few different, more wild, strains of Brett that are not cultured/etc. for sale by Wyeast/Whitelabs. Brett B,C, and L (and formerly Anomolus) are only the ones sold for beer making. From my limited reading it seems Brett B is the most common wine spoiler, and so I'd imagine many/most Brett infections in beer are Brett B. I'll ask over on the BB, but I think if its a lactic acid producing spoiler forming a pellicle it should look slimy, or ropey, and more like a jellyfish.
Again though, I don't think you can tell just from a picture - it could be neither.

Hm. If it's not a bacterial infection, I'm not sure what else it'd be. Mold? That'd suck. I'll have to post an updated picture later and see if that sheds any light on this.

Here we go. For anyone who's not sure what it is judging by the earlier pictures...



I'm pretty sure it whispered something antisemitic to me when I took the picture...Heh, sorry. Family Guy thing. : P

is it getting thicker and whiter? i had a similar 'infection' in one of my brews, and it turned out pretty good.

Well, I don't know if it's thicker, but it's definitely been growing as you can tell by the pictures. Did you ever get an idea of what your infection was? Also, how long did you let it sit, etc?

Isn't there a difference between an intentionally soured beer and one that is simply infected? I'm certainly no expert, but I think sour beers are crafted by adding a specific amount of a specific organism at a specific time in order to achieve predictable results. Where as infected beers are just that - infected, with who-knows-what.

I'm not trying to disparage the OP or anything, but am I wrong? Is an infected beer just the "soured" version of whatever you were making in the first place? How many infected beers are really worth keeping?

Beerthoven said:

Isn't there a difference between an intentionally soured beer and one that is simply infected? I'm certainly no expert, but I think sour beers are crafted by adding a specific amount of a specific organism at a specific time in order to achieve predictable results. Where as infected beers are just that - infected, with who-knows-what. I'm not trying to disparage the OP or anything, but am I wrong? Is an infected beer just the "soured" version of whatever you were making in the first place? How many infected beers are really worth keeping?

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The is a difference, I think. Infected beers, in my experience, are not the same. I had a few in my early days(even though I haven't been brewing that long) and a couple turned out OK, but most did not. And none turned out even close to as good as my intentionally 'infected' sour beers. One infection just robbed all taste from the beer, not really sour, not really anything - tasted like water Anyway, my point is I think its a very rare beer that is infected and turns out a desireable result, but I bet it does happen. Unless its a style that may benefit from some sour/funk(and you're willing to risk it), the best thing to do when you get an unintentional infection is to try and mitigate it as soon as possible( campden,racking,kegging,etc.).

landhoney said:

Unless its a style that may benefit from some sour/funk(and you're willing to risk it), the best thing to do when you get an unintentional infection is to try and mitigate it as soon as possible( campden,racking,kegging,etc.).

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I concur, if you feel it is infected then you need to take swift action to remove favorable conditions. Also, it would behoove you to drink it in a timely fashion.

The thing is, when you unintentionally get something introduced that actually gets a foothold, it is usually struggling to be there at first. You can upset this balance pretty easily. But the longer you let it go, the worse it will get and the harder it is to stop.

landhoney said:

Anyway, my point is I think its a very rare beer that is infected and turns out a desireable result, but I bet it does happen.

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I have a hefe in bottles right now that I'm pretty sure was infected. It had the milky skin on top and had bubbles that wouldn't pop...looked pretty funky

I bottled it up anyway and let it carb. Its got the ring around the neck thing and everything but you know what? It's really good! Its a little 'funky' I guess (I haven't had too many belgians so I don't know what a good funk tastes like) but it's quite refreshing. One thing I've noticed, I don't like it as much when I pour the yeast in as with a typical hefe. I like it better when I pour regularly and leave the yeast behind. My fiance even likes it!

So, maybe it is infected? But it might turn out ok...siasons and hefes and the like might be OK with a little funk but I'd still take the othes advise and drink it soon. If it was a pale ale or something more 'standard' then I don't think it would work out. Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Does this mean that I don't want to harvest the yeast from this one, as that may be infected too? Also, will the beer degrade if I bottle it and let it condition? Also, will a camden tablet cease all activity in the fermenter? Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

I still think you have a chance. In my last batch of Smokey Boggart Porter, about 3 gallons of extra got racked into a secondary carboy that had previously been fermenting with a **** ton of raspberries. I must have forgotten to clean or not well enough because a pellicle (best I can tell) formed over the top and took a few months to drop into the beer. I racked it of and bottle conditioned. Crazy funky suspended blobs formed in the bottles along with the weird ring in the neck, at first it almost tasted like Satan's anus, but not quite bad enough to dump, plus who knows if it was a sour strain it will need age right. Just cracked one last week... lightning struck. Very complex beer with sour fruit notes that magically blend with the smokey porter goodness of the base beer. I guarantee I could not replicate this beer and if I tried I am sure it would be awful. However, I do have a case sitting and continuing to age. Hold the faith and let it sit!

EDIT: I wouldn't camden tablet it if it tastes or smells bad. I would say let it run its course and take you where it is going!

EinGutesBier said:

Well, I don't know if it's thicker, but it's definitely been growing as you can tell by the pictures. Did you ever get an idea of what your infection was? Also, how long did you let it sit, etc?

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not sure what it was.

it didn't surface untill i dryhopped in the secondary.

i let it sit a good four months, then used it as my maiden keg. i

it was crystal clear, and quite tasty.

scinerd3000 said:

even if bret lives to 18% its still not harmfull. People used to joke that i was going to go blind by brewing my own beer (referring to the moonshining days) but nothing like that will happen with beer. Stuff may grow in it and taste shtty but your not going to die from anything growing in it is what i meant. That being said i found this guy doing a saison and his looks pretty gross too so maybe thats the way its supposed to come out?

have you tasted yours?

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so being new to brewing, is there anything a guy should worry about when (im sure its bound to happen) you get an infected batch? Ive heard that nothing too bad can live in beer so is there anything a guy should worry about when brewing? No offense to the above attached pic but there is NO way i would drink that. Just dont think i could do it after looking at that shot.

personally it will just taste bad. the film on the top will disolve back into the beer when its done growing or whatever. If it doesnt taste good then dont drink it. as far as i know you can get sick...ive been wrong before but sanitation so far has kept me in good standing with my beer karma