Building permits for a dedicated brewing room - hints?

Sparky said:

Good, now that we got the prelim. stuff out of the way, I expect a separate thread in the DIY section on this build!

Also, I know you will sneak in a home theater + bar like you had at your old place - gotta see that too.

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Yup, it's all in the plans and all fits which is what I was happy to see. We sat with the designer yesterday looking at some 3D walkthroughs and moved things around a bit. Includes a bathroom/sauna/lounge area as well. All of the ductwork is being moved. It's a major undertaking but we're getting pretty excited about it!

Kal

I am not sure about Canada, but in Arizona, it's all about the building permit fee's charged by both the State and City. The only requirement I had was to submit a detailed drawing of the floor plan. I went Commercial, so it was expected for a hood to be over the top of the brewing equipment. I over-killed the vent system (thanks to you and your wonderful article from the Electric Brewery) and had more difficulty from the folks at the Health Department than I did at any of the inspections from Building and Zoning permits. The answer is to think positive knowing full well what you are doing is legal. I would welcome the chance to educate a building inspector on what it is that we are doing. I might even print out a copy of your web site or down load it on a thumb drive (that's what I did) and share with someone the "hobby" of making your own beer. It's very easy to convert a sceptic and non-believer into a disciple simply by taking the time to show him what it is we are doing.

kal said:

It's a major undertaking but we're getting pretty excited about it!
Kal

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Wow, so it sounds like you were successful selling your kids to that carpet weaving factory in Calcutta. Plenty of money for the build and you can always get them back when they are well behaved and strong enough for yard work.

Does the room have to be completely fitted out before the final inspection or can you drop the equipment in afterwards?
There is nothing wrong with being truthful, but depending on the nuances of the energy codes and ventilation rates required you may get gigged for "properly" ventilating your rig and may want to only show provisions for basically a bathroom fan. I don't know your specific residential codes, but you may not even be required to ventilate a kitchen range and being an electric system may have even less ventilation requirements. If the power, water, sewer, and basic hvac are to code they have nothing to cite you on and you are good to go. Most of the inspectors are passionate about what they do and that gives most the impression that they are pricks with inflated heads, but for the most part they care about the people they are protecting and want to make sure everyone has done their job properly designing the systems that are installed. Be passionate about what you are doing and walk them through (with as few details as possible) your brew day and what you are planning to make it a successful one with the system you are installing and they will have more respect for you(and hopefully more educated and understanding).

If he's just one of the pricks then push back and request code sections that he is citing if he denies anything and then we'll find the gray area of another code that will allow what you are doing....

If it was commercial project with an unusual condition, I'd schedule a sit down with the city and your team including you the owner, the architect/designer, and contractor. Some preliminary drawings and a quick review of scope would hopefully bring any major concerns of the AHJ to light.

That said, in the residential world.. just keep it simple. Call it a utility room. Show the infrastructure required - sink here, 20A dedicated appliance circuit here, floor drain etc. Show what youre going to build but as long as its code compliant less details can make everyones life easier. If they press for appliance details then you probably know someone who can help with Kal clone cut sheets.

Dear Kal,

Can I have some money? I am a poor teacher.

Thanks,

Andy

WPStrassburg said:

Does the room have to be completely fitted out before the final inspection or can you drop the equipment in afterwards?

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I don't know. I don't see why equipment would have to be there. What you plug into the outlets really doesn't matter (I would think).

There is nothing wrong with being truthful, but depending on the nuances of the energy codes and ventilation rates required you may get gigged for "properly" ventilating your rig and may want to only show provisions for basically a bathroom fan. I don't know your specific residential codes, but you may not even be required to ventilate a kitchen range and being an electric system may have even less ventilation requirements. If the power, water, sewer, and basic hvac are to code they have nothing to cite you on and you are good to go.

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Makes sense to me!

Kal

modernlifeisANDY said:

Can I have some money? I am a poor teacher.

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I'll trade you for some of that extra 2-3 months of vacation you get. Sound fair?

Kal

kal said:

I'll trade you for some of that extra 2-3 months of vacation you get. Sound fair?

Kal

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I guess I deserved that!

kal said:

If they ask, the hobby is making beer.

Kal

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There you go. It is a hobby room. If they ask what your hobby is you can tell them.

Your building a laundry room with a floor drain in case of flooding and ventilating to keep your basement from getting humid.

Does your local inspection agency have any written rules you should follow when approaching this kind of buildings? I mean, air treatment, gas (not your case, I know) safety plumbings, waste fluids, ...

From my point of view, a single inspector cannot overpass the written rules he is paid to double check your compliancy with. If this is the insane case, well he/she has for sure someone on top you could comply with...

Btw, I agree with all the others saying this room can be told as a kitchen with electric heating system. If you are not treating illegal items (aren't you? ) in your kitchen you should be safe.

Ciao Kal!

From what I understand, the local municipality has to follow the building code. The building code in places is sometimes 'loose' which means it can be open to 'interpretation'.

Kal

kal said:

From what I understand, the local municipality has to follow the building code. The building code in places is sometimes 'loose' which means it can be open to 'interpretation'.

Kal

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That means that whatever you will do could be right or wrong, depending from the inspector daily mood...

I'd follow the "large kitchen" way. Keep it the easy way. Maybe hide somewhere your gorgeous cp and kettles....

do you have a separate entrance to the basement?

mother in law suit with a full kitchen and washer/dryer sounds about right

No separate entrance. No bedroom in the basement either or anything else that would make it seem like a suite meant for second occupancy. (Not even sure if that's allowed in the neighbourhood I'm in).

Everything we're doing makes it very much a single family home with a basement for entertaining. (hic)

Kal

Why not just call it a second kitchen?

Hire an Architect. Architect draws up plans then submits to city. City approves plans and issues a permit to the contractor and builds per plan. building inspector makes sure construction is to plans and building code.

if you really want to call it a brewery, your residence may not be zoned for that according to local ordinaces and zoning regulations. but its not for public/commercial use so that makes it interesting. as long as its to code you should be able to put it in. Just call it a kitchen and have it designed per code.

anothing thing you can do is just go down to the local building / planning department and ask them.

The contractor is the process of doing full plans and will be submitting. They do design as well. (They don't just build).

Kal

assuming home brewing of beer is completely legal and everything is up to code, I think your contractor is a silly old fashioned man who is afraid to just do his job..... Don't lie or try to cover anything up, it looks suspicious. You don't want to deal with a pissed off inspector. Be forthcoming and explain you home brew beer and have expendable income that you want to spend to make it easier.

Follow the codes for the structural and mechanical requirements and be honest. Anything short of that is stupid and a good way to get fines and an inspector up your ass. To me, it honestly sounds like the contractor is afraid you're doing something illegal. Since you're not, it isn't an issue.

jd3 said:

assuming home brewing of beer is completely legal and everything is up to code, I think your contractor is a silly old fashioned man who is afraid to just do his job.....

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Errr, no. He's the owner of one of the most respected local design/build firms who has been doing this for years and has seen a myriad of issues in the past. He only does basements. He's not some 'handyman'. He has a large team.

He's simply trying to gather information ahead of time to mitigate any possible issues since this is his first home brewery. He's not looking to cover anything up or mislead. He knows exactly what I'm doing. He knows exactly what is legal/what isn't.

The more information you have, the better. Hence the reason I started this thread. Just looking for experiences from others who may have done the same.

Kal

kal said:

Everything we're doing makes it very much a single family home with a basement for entertaining. (hic)

Kal

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There, you go...A kitchen, for entertainment purposes.

:rockin:

kal said:

Errr, no. He's the owner of one of the most respected local design/build firms who has been doing this for years and has seen a myriad of issues in the past. He only does basements. He's not some 'handyman'. He has a large team.

He's simply trying to gather information ahead of time to mitigate any possible issues since this is his first home brewery. He's not looking to cover anything up or mislead. He knows exactly what I'm doing. He knows exactly what is legal/what isn't.

The more information you have, the better. Hence the reason I started this thread. Just looking for experiences from others who may have done the same.

Kal

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as long as you have plans done that clearly show what you are doing, and its to building code, local codes etc and the city approves it, the inspector doesn't have the authority to say you can't do it. sure they can be a pain in the ass, just don't piss him off. do everything by the book and plans. the inspector does have to sign off on the certificate of occupancy. make sure to tell him to come by for a beer when its all done

make sure to post pics of construction progress!

Talked to my brother last night who works in planning/permitting for the local county. He suggested submitting plans showing the construction, electrical, plumbing ONLY. No fixtures, appliances etc. You don't need to call it anything more than a basement remodel. He said he would specifically avoid the term Brewery just because there are specific rules for a "home occupation commercial brewery" in the county and the term could cause confusion among plan reviewers/inspectors.

One thing he brought up....in our county a single family dwelling can NOT have a second kitchen. A kitchen is defined as having at least 2 of the following: a "kitchen type" sink (mounted in a counter top unlike a free standing laundry sink), a 240v outlet or a fridge. So to be safe....I wouldn't call it a kitchen either.

Of course this is in America...so....

Good luck!

My brother is an inspector for the municipality and he gets calls about putting certified kitchens for home-based catering businesses all the time.
His boss loves to transfer those calls his way. He ballparks the cost of putting a certified kitchen into a residential basement around 50-60k. So if you ever had plans of doing something commercial, it's pretty expensive.

Anyhow, in the end if your contractor is unsure of something, have him call the municipality and sort it out. As long as your contractor installs everything the way the approved plans state, you shouldn't have problems. Most of the problems my brother has is when someone on-site is doing some cowboy stuff instead of following the plans.

Most important thing I can say: don't be a dick. A lot of these inspectors are retired tradespeople, they enjoy the 3-4 hour work day and don't look to cause trouble. If you piss them off, they will rain **** down on you.

Deric said:

One thing he brought up....in our county a single family dwelling can NOT have a second kitchen. A kitchen is defined as having at least 2 of the following: a "kitchen type" sink (mounted in a counter top unlike a free standing laundry sink), a 240v outlet or a fridge. So to be safe....I wouldn't call it a kitchen either.

Of course this is in America...so....

Good luck!

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I expect municipalities will lighten this restriction over time with the growing instances of outdoor kitchens.

In my experience of finishing my basement by myself (or just all the rough-ins) I have found that a couple calls to the inspectors asking questions tends to calm their nerves a bit. Especially if you go in there and ask before you start building/pulling permits.

Also, if they come out to inspect and find something wrong, don't try to second guess them. I have found simply asking more questions in person while they are present to be really helpful, such as "How can I fix this to bring it up to code?" or telling them "I'm just trying to make sure I do this the RIGHT way" or "How would you like to see this done?" can go miles as far as establishing that you aren't trying to cut corners or pull one over on them. They will be able to tell if you are trying to blow smoke up their @$$.

-Steve

It's a kitchen. Before you built it where did you brew? in the bathroom? What you cook is up to you. The term brewery is an industrial use and will most run afoul of the zoning ordinance. A brewery suggests truck traffic, industrial scale storage and hazardous materials such as grains, etc. That's not what you are doing.

sjwelna said:

In my experience of finishing my basement by myself (or just all the rough-ins) I have found that a couple calls to the inspectors asking questions tends to calm their nerves a bit. Especially if you go in there and ask before you start building/pulling permits.

Also, if they come out to inspect and find something wrong, don't try to second guess them. I have found simply asking more questions in person while they are present to be really helpful, such as "How can I fix this to bring it up to code?" or telling them "I'm just trying to make sure I do this the RIGHT way" or "How would you like to see this done?" can go miles as far as establishing that you aren't trying to cut corners or pull one over on them. They will be able to tell if you are trying to blow smoke up their @$$.

-Steve

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++1.

This has been my experience. Before you pull your permits, talk to your building department, ask questions and get to know the inspectors.

Make sure your permits and plans are accurate and they will not question your choice of appliances.

And like others have said, this is a kitchen and not a brewery. If it was, you would be permanently installing and permitting your brewing gear.

Personally I would call it a second kitchen and avoid using brewing or homebrew or anything related to making beer unless asked directly. I wouldn't lie if they ask but be clear about what you are doing and the legality of it. After I brewed my first batch of beer I brought a few over to my parent's house and my dad was convinced I was doing something illegal. The point being a lot of people might thing you are doing something you aren't supposed to if they aren't familiar with the legality of homebrewing.

LimerickBrewCo said:

Personally I would call it a second kitchen and avoid using brewing or homebrew or anything related to making beer unless asked directly. I wouldn't lie if they ask but be clear about what you are doing and the legality of it. After I brewed my first batch of beer I brought a few over to my parent's house and my dad was convinced I was doing something illegal. The point being a lot of people might thing you are doing something you aren't supposed to if they aren't familiar with the legality of homebrewing.

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You could always show a copy of local regulations regarding homebrew to put their mind at ease.

For those of you who keep saying that he should call it a second kitchen, a lot of municipalities up here in Canada forbid second kitchens in single family dwellings. Once you add a second kitchen they think you are going to rent out part of your place as a suite so it is illegal without making an entire suite and getting zoning for tenant. Kal is better off just calling it a work shop or something along those lines.

MoB

That's why I asked if there was a separate entrance. The kitchen label might not fly.
Looks like it has to be a finished basement with a sweet laundry room.

brewingmeister said:

That's why I asked if there was a separate entrance. The kitchen label might not fly.
Looks like it has to be a finished basement with a sweet laundry room.

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Yep... it will just have a HECK of a "utility" sink in it as well as supplemental water heaters for all those stubborn stains on the clothes!

Good luck Kal... Red tape can run thick some times. Wish it could just be shredded lots of times.

kal said:

No separate entrance. No bedroom in the basement either or anything else that would make it seem like a suite meant for second occupancy. (Not even sure if that's allowed in the neighbourhood I'm in).

Everything we're doing makes it very much a single family home with a basement for entertaining. (hic)

Kal

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Sounds like you have a cellar not a basement. Just sayin... A basement has a seperate entrance. I know cellars have much stricter codes for kitchens due to the lack of regress options in the case of a fire. Dealing with inspectors can be difficult as you are aware but in some cases you are actually better off not asking too many questions. Rely on the knowlage of your designer/contractor to inform you of your local requiremnets. Good luck and look forward pictures of your progress.

Came across the thread thread I started a year and a half later and noticed that I never really closed the loop...

We ended up calling the basement brewery a "Hobby Room" on the permit drawings and we had zero issues with any of the inspectors (building/plumbing, or electrical). As we expected everyone was concerned that the various items (plumbing fixtures/sinks/drains/electrical/structural) were done to code, and not with the usage of the room.

Kal

Kal,

Glad you reported back on the final outcome. I had followed this thread as it went along but didn't comment because I had no experience with pulling permits or inspections other than on a residential garage. I do wonder what inspectors would have thought of my 72" long by 30" wide by 24" high sink that I had in a previous house in a photographic darkroom though. Wish I had that sink now for cleaning brewing stuff.

Chuck