2nd BIAB, terrible efficiency!

Ok, this is my 2nd BIAB after brewing on a 3V system for a number of years. On my "old" set up with an "EasyMasher" (or homemade clone) I would normally get 75% efficiency - easily. My first BIAB I calculated the OG at around 1038 and ended up 1028-1030. This time I increased the grain bill and had an expected OG of 1050 (at 75% eff) and ended with a gravity of 1039 - 59% efficiency?!

The recipe
7 lb American 2 row malt
1 lb Crystal 40L
1 lb Amber malt
4 oz Corn sugar

.8 oz Goldings hops (5% AAU) - 60 minutes
.8 oz Fuggles (4% AAU) - 30 minutes

Wyeast #1469.

Grain crush same as I always use which is not a fine crush. Mash in at 151 F, 7.25 gallons, mash for 90 minutes, checking temp every 20 minutes. Temp averaged around 148 F. Added heat in small bursts occasionally if I saw temp dip to 146-7. Mash out at 151 F by pulling bag out and letting drip, squeezing what liquid I could get out of it by hand - (should I be running it up to 170 F first?)

90 minute boil, first 30 no hops. Ended up with 5.75 gallons wort. I don't really mind the gravity being lower - I prefer lower gravity brews but I'm not really sure why there is such a big difference in the gravity doing it by BIAB vs. 3V (I've brewed this one before).

Ideas?

Cheers!
Opalko

By 3V do you mean three vessels- hot liquor tank, mash/lauter tune, and kettle?

If so, you lose a LOT of efficiency by not sparging. I tried BIAB and got about 55%, but the same recipes done with a mash tun and batch sparging yield 80% efficiency.

Yes, 3 vessel system. I'm asking here because according to many who BIAB, they get very good efficiency:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/

I'm pretty sure to make up for not sparging, you should crush the grains really fine.

Two things,

1. as theschick pointed out, crush it more. Either adjust the gap, or run the grain through your crusher a second time.

2. Run the temp up before pulling the bag, 170 or so.

Sounds like you kinda know what to change. And I suspect, your suspicions are correct sir!

go a little finer with the crush. also mash out by raising to 165-168, pull the bag and let it drain. then squeeze it for every drop you can get.

also. was your recipe expecting 5 gallon of wort? I ran the recipe through beersmith. it looks like 75% for 5 gallons would get you right at the 1.050 you were looking for. the same recipe at 72% with 5.75 gallons gets you the 1.039-1.040 beer you ended up with. looks like the efficiency isn't that bad at all, you just made more beer than expected

opalko said:

Ok, this is my 2nd BIAB after brewing on a 3V system for a number of years. On my "old" set up with an "EasyMasher" (or homemade clone) I would normally get 75% efficiency - easily. My first BIAB I calculated the OG at around 1038 and ended up 1028-1030. This time I increased the grain bill and had an expected OG of 1050 (at 75% eff) and ended with a gravity of 1039 - 59% efficiency?!

The recipe
7 lb American 2 row malt
1 lb Crystal 40L
1 lb Amber malt
4 oz Corn sugar

.8 oz Goldings hops (5% AAU) - 60 minutes
.8 oz Fuggles (4% AAU) - 30 minutes

Wyeast #1469.

Grain crush same as I always use which is not a fine crush. Mash in at 151 F, 7.25 gallons, mash for 90 minutes, checking temp every 20 minutes. Temp averaged around 148 F. Added heat in small bursts occasionally if I saw temp dip to 146-7. Mash out at 151 F by pulling bag out and letting drip, squeezing what liquid I could get out of it by hand - (should I be running it up to 170 F first?)

90 minute boil, first 30 no hops. Ended up with 5.75 gallons wort. I don't really mind the gravity being lower - I prefer lower gravity brews but I'm not really sure why there is such a big difference in the gravity doing it by BIAB vs. 3V (I've brewed this one before).

Ideas?

Cheers!
Opalko

Click to expand...

I had the same issue with my first BIAB. After that I double milled the grain and jumped to 80%. Not sure if that's what you did. Are you sure your hydrometer is calibrated and did you adjust for temp?

BTW, if you're getting low efficiency, you can still do a sparge. I use BIAB in the perforated part of a turkey fryer kit, and usually put it in my old 4 gallon pot after I pull it out of the kettle. If you test your batch and find the gravity is low, you can sparge it with some water and add it to the brew kettle. Of course, this assumes you have space left in your brew kettle.

I've done that to get to the gravity I was seeking.

Ok, I guess I was expecting the 75% on the 5.75 gallons. That would make sense if it should be 75% for 5 gallons. I'll adjust the mill to make a finer crush (I haven't changed the gap on it since using it for a 3V system). Some good help here, thanks!

usfmikeb said:

BTW, if you're getting low efficiency, you can still do a sparge. I use BIAB in the perforated part of a turkey fryer kit, and usually put it in my old 4 gallon pot after I pull it out of the kettle. If you test your batch and find the gravity is low, you can sparge it with some water and add it to the brew kettle. Of course, this assumes you have space left in your brew kettle.

I've done that to get to the gravity I was seeking.

Click to expand...

+1 Sparge if you can. Theres no reason not to.

I don't sparge with BIAB and get 70% + each batch. I mash out at 170* for 10 min and then let the bag drain on an oven rack over the pot.

I have been getting 80+ efficiency on the last five or so batches I've done and I attribute it to raising the wort temp up to 170, then stirring the grain really well and letting it sit for a couple of minutes. I then pull it up and let it hang and drain.

opalko said:

Ok, I guess I was expecting the 75% on the 5.75 gallons. That would make sense if it should be 75% for 5 gallons. I'll adjust the mill to make a finer crush (I haven't changed the gap on it since using it for a 3V system). Some good help here, thanks!

Click to expand...

You should definitely check the gap on your mill. If you haven't checked your gap it in a while, there is a chance that it could have changed simply from use. BIAB can take a finer crush since stuck mash is crossed off your worry list.

mfraier said:

I don't sparge with BIAB and get 70% + each batch. I mash out at 170* for 10 min and then let the bag drain on an oven rack over the pot.

Click to expand...

It's only been an issue with me once, but if I were trying to make a big beer, I would definitely sparge. Essentially, we're leaving sugars on the table by not sparging.

ElDuderino said:

I have been getting 80+ efficiency on the last five or so batches I've done and I attribute it to raising the wort temp up to 170, then stirring the grain really well and letting it sit for a couple of minutes. I then pull it up and let it hang and drain.

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Agreed, thinning the sugars out helps before pulling the grains. I follow the same mash schedule as if I was doing it in a mash tun:

20 minutes at 120
60 minutes at 154
10 minutes at 170

I've been exceeding my efficiency expectations, and getting higher OG than I want. So, I'm starting to cut my grain bills down.

double milling makes is the most efficient way to increase efficiency
Same workflow with double milling got me from 69-70% to 81-82%, and that's for 1.070+ worts.

How much extra trub are you getting by milling it more?

So raising temp to 170 will help my 68% efficiency? Good to know.

I can't say I've seen more trub from double milling. The bag strains preatty much anything solid out. The other stuff would have ended in the wort anyway.

I got 78% on my first ever brew BIAB with no sparge, it is a no sparge method. The average etraction being touted is around the 80% so I can't understand what you're doing wrong. I use a normal grain crush and full volume, BIAB is a full volume no sparge, I repeat, no sparge method. You can sparge all you want but if you're doing the method properly it's not needed. You might also be missing out on squeezing the bag a bit, not too much as that will possibly get astringent, but squeezing some of the good stuff out is generally necessary.

I do BIAB. I used to get about 70% efficiency. Now I get 85-93% efficiency.

I do 2 or 3 batch sparges (I used to do one). I heat the water with the first sparge raising the grain to 168 for mash-out. IMHO if you are not concerned with mashing-out (which will effectively end enzymatic activity), the actual temperature does not matter as long as you keep it below 170 (to avoid astringency). But I do think it is important to keep the sparges hot. For my last batch I did not heat my third sparge and hardly heated my second (timing issues on brew day) and my efficiency took a hit.

FWIW I never squeeze. My thought is that if it does not come out with the sparge water, it probably shouldn't be in my beer.

Grain crush absolutely makes a difference. I have relied mainly on NB but also AHS, Midwest Supply and LHBS crushes and I have not had issues (at least so far). You will absolutely get better efficiency with better crush but you also begin to get draff in the wort because of the fine grind. Of course this would also depend on the fineness of your bag.

EoinMag said:

it is a no sparge method..

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It can be a no sparge method, but it can also be sparged. Everyone's got their own preferences.

kapbrew13 said:

So raising temp to 170 will help my 68% efficiency? Good to know.

Click to expand...

Raising it at the end for a few minutes will help to thin the sugars out that are still hanging around the grain. Only do it at the end, and only do it for ten minutes. It will end enzymatic activity, and doing it for a longer period of time could lead to astringency.

usfmikeb said:

Raising it at the end for a few minutes will help to thin the sugars out that are still hanging around the grain. Only do it at the end, and only do it for ten minutes. It will end enzymatic activity, and doing it for a longer period of time could lead to astringency.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

ElDuderino said:

I have been getting 80+ efficiency on the last five or so batches I've done and I attribute it to raising the wort temp up to 170, then stirring the grain really well and letting it sit for a couple of minutes. I then pull it up and let it hang and drain.

Click to expand...

+10

A couple things I started doing after recommendations from the forums that really ramped up my efficiency:

1) Fine crush. You can really pulverize the grain for BIAB. I double mill mine on a pretty fine setting, getting a lot of flour in the crush. Makes a cloudy wort, but it always clears in the fermenter.

2) Sparge and mash out. If you have another kettle, use it to sparge and pump up the temp to 170 for a mash out (I get it up to about 175 and then drop the bag in, stir well, dunk a bit like a tea bag; I go about 5-10 minutes in the second kettle). Then, pull it up and let it hang to drain. I pour the sparged wort into the kettle and start the boil while I let the bag drain back into the kettle I used to sparge with (I put the bag in the little steamer pot that came with my turkey fryer kit for this, and let it drain through the steamer into the kettle). I first started doing this when I went to full boils while doing extract, and found that it worked so well I continued doing it when I went to BIAB (only I did it opposite with steeping grains for extract brewing - steeped in the little kettle and sparged in the big kettle).

In addition to (or alternatively), you can do a secondary sparge where you pour water over the grains in the bag. I've done this, but found it was not worth the effort. My efficiency didn't increase, though I could see it being a bit better than just the dunk method I use. The larger steam basket to hold the bag would be very useful for this.

With this, I get efficiencies in the mid to upper 80's consistently. :rockin:

usfmikeb said:

It can be a no sparge method, but it can also be sparged. Everyone's got their own preferences.

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http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=194

I'll let you read someone elses definition, they say it's not no sparge as the liquid is constantly in contact with the grist.
If you're sparging in the traditional sense you're doing a variant of pure BIAB.

As I said, the method is open to different preferences. Not sparging after mash out is choosing to leave sugars behind with the grain. I only sparge if I'm short of where I wanted to be from an efficiency standpoint.

EoinMag said:

http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=194

I'll let you read someone elses definition, they say it's not no sparge as the liquid is constantly in contact with the grist.
If you're sparging in the traditional sense you're doing a variant of pure BIAB.

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biabrewer.info won't even argue that dunk sparging isn't biab. that would be like saying making tea with tea bags isn't really making tea since it wasn't done with loose tea. the beauty of brewing is there are almost as many ways to get from grain to glass as there are beer styles. when batch sparging got started, it was looked down upon by those that had been brewing for years because it wasn't the same as they had been taught (fly sparging). the brewing process is constantly evolving and changing to what ever works best for each brewer. so instead of getting defensive of how you do BIAB (I do full volume as well) just accept that others do it different and still make great beer.

Mysticmead said:

biabrewer.info won't even argue that dunk sparging isn't biab. that would be like saying making tea with tea bags isn't really making tea since it wasn't done with loose tea. the beauty of brewing is there are almost as many ways to get from grain to glass as there are beer styles. when batch sparging got started, it was looked down upon by those that had been brewing for years because it wasn't the same as they had been taught (fly sparging). the brewing process is constantly evolving and changing to what ever works best for each brewer. so instead of getting defensive of how you do BIAB (I do full volume as well) just accept that others do it different and still make great beer.

Click to expand...

+100

Experimentation is what leads to innovation! :fro:

To up all grain/BiaB efficiency:

+1 fine crush/double mill. In my mind this is the single biggest and most easily overlooked variable for newer all-grain brewers- biab or no. At least, it was for me.

+1 mash out to 170 to thin things out. Likely to help and unlikely to hurt.

+1 squeeze that grain bag! I haven't brewed any roasty beers on my biab setup, but none of my ambers, ipas, or light lagers have a hint of astringency and I get every drop out of that grain that I can manage. Hop bag, too.

+? dunk/batch sparge. Seems likely to up your efficiency, but the biggest appeal of BiaB to me is simplicity and minimal equipment. I'd try the other tips to up efficiency before reintroducing a sparge, if it were me. Of course, follow your own heart