Cider with Rapid Rise bread yeast

So, I'm starting to screw around with some 1 gallon batches. I've currently got a rum going (1.185 OG) as well as a berry cider (rasp, black and blue). Yesterday, I was bored and had some free time, so I added a packet of the HIGHLY active bread yeast to a gallon of regular apple juice. I didn't take an OG, but the last time I used this brand of juice, the SG was 1.050, so I'm assuming that for my OG.

I left the house about 15 minutes after pitching and returned about 4 hours later. This puppy was ROCKING!!! 2+ bubbles a minute in a 3 piece airlock. I did this in a glass gallon jug and there were bubbles coming up EVERYWHERE! I left a little head space because I wasn't sure what kind of foam would occur and I filled that space today after seeing that there was little to no foam at all.

Anyway, this is still cloudy and in the must (?), I am seeing dozens of small CO2 bubbles per second. I mean, it's amazing how quickly this yeast appears to be eating the sugars!

I know this has been tried before, but I just wanted to share. I have had some fast ferments (blow offs with quick bubbles and what not), but this appears to be the fastest initial lag time coupled with an insane rate of fermentation.

So, how fast should this be through fermenting? Will bread yeast clean up after itself the same as ale yeast? If so, how long AFTER cease of fermentation should I leave the cider on its yeast cake?

Any comments on how you think this'll turn out?

Thanks!!!

Methinks it'll end poorly unless you let it condition along time... Bread yeast isn't the best choice to ferment with..But maybe off flavors might be hidden in a cider..

I know, I know. I've heard a ton of people say it, but I've been dying to try SOMETHING that uses all grocery store ingredients. If it doesn't work, I haven't lost much. But if it DOES, well, how awesome is that?

Out of curiosity, what is it about bread yeast that makes it NOT suitable for brewing? Does it produce undesirable alcohols (like fusels)? Is it just the flavor profile? Is it the alcohol tolerance? WHY does it not work as well?

MBM30075 said:

Out of curiosity, what is it about bread yeast that makes it NOT suitable for brewing? Does it produce undesirable alcohols (like fusels)? Is it just the flavor profile? Is it the alcohol tolerance? WHY does it not work as well?

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I read somewhere it gives a bread/dough like taste to your brew.

For certain recipes, it works fine. Joe's Ancient Orange Mead (JAOM) specifically calls for bread yeast. Bread yeast has a low alcohol tolerance, so it finishes sweet most of the time. It can leave a yeasty taste, but that gets better with time. My first try at homebrewing was the typical Welch's frozen concentrate, some sugar, and bread yeast. It tasted a lot like Manischewitz, actually not bad if you like Manischewitz. Of course I could hardly wait to try it and the first few glasses were kind of like drinking grape drink while eating pizza dough. But the longer I waited the better it got. I still have one small bottle left and I'm going to give it a while.

I have two JAOM variations going right now, both with Red Star rapid rise yeast. The last one was bubbling the airlock less than 30 minutes after pitching. I'd say keep trying things and you might hit on a winner. To me there's a difference between just throwing junk in a jug to make hooch and genuinely experimenting to see if some unexpected combo might work. I don't know much of the history of Joe Mattoli's mead, but I'd imagine that the first time he tried it he didn't know exactly what to expect either.

I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm not using crap ingredients, or at least I'm not just picking up whatever I have around. I'm doing a planned, thought-out experiment to see for myself what apple juice and bread yeast produce. So far, it's at least really, really stinking entertaining!

I have a video of the fermentation, but can't see how to post it here. So, here's a link to my blog where it's posted:

West Roswell Brewing

I've made a few batches of apfelwein/cider with various types of yeast. I enjoy the dry ones, but I really like just a touch of sweetness in mine. I just bottled one that I made with Cooper's beer yeast, and I think I'm going to like it. It's got just a hint of sweetness. I'll be interested in knowing how yours comes out. Your video looks similar to what I've seen in my jugs. What's surprising me with the JAOM is how long the fermentation has continued. I've got one that is still putting out several bubbles a minute after almost three weeks. My past experience with bread yeast has been that it roars along for a few days and then settles down to about two bubbles a minute for about 3 weeks or so. Must be all the honey, raisins, etc in the mead.

It is a fact that bread yeast contains more bacteria than yeast. They can get away with it because bread will be baked.

Forrest

@Forrest,

I googled that and couldn't find any information to support your statement. Do you have some? Is it kind of luck of the draw? I.e., do you sometimes luck out with less bacteria and sometimes get killed with more?

Is there any way to cultivate the yeast and not the bacteria?

Thanks!

This subject got me really interested in doing some research on this subject. It seems like everywhere I look I keep seeing this "The majority of the yeast used in baking is of the same species common in alcoholic fermentation." refering to Saccharomyces cerevisiae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

Found this as well "Sourdough breads depend on yeast and bacteria starter (mixture of flour, yeast, liquid, bacteria) to provide the special sour flavor. The bacteria lowers the pH of the bread mixture, which adds to the flavor." - Yeast Bread Ingredients - How to Make Yeast Bread - Yeast Bread Ingredient Science

I have heard it mentioned many times at conventions by yeast manufacturers and wine kit manufacturers.

@Austinhomebrew (Forrest?)

While that may be true, that also seems to me like a potential conflict of interest:

"Buy our yeast, because Fleishmann's has bacteria in it!"

I'd like to see a neutral 3rd party verify those statements. I'm not saying they are false, just that they are AT LEAST self-serving.

Thanks!

MBM30075 said:

@Austinhomebrew (Forrest?)

While that may be true, that also seems to me like a potential conflict of interest:

"Buy our yeast, because Fleishmann's has bacteria in it!"

I'd like to see a neutral 3rd party verify those statements. I'm not saying they are false, just that they are AT LEAST self-serving.

Thanks!

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I was just trying to be informative. I never said buy my yeast. You can buy any kind of yeast you want. Including bread yeast.

You would not believe the number of people that make wild grape wine using airborne yeast (in other words they just let it rot). When I suggest they use some wine yeast they say "My momma never used no yeast".

I had one woman call the store, she made some wild grape wine using open fermentation (letting the wine rot) on her back porch. Well, the fruit flies got in the wine so she put the wine in the microwave to kill the fruit flies. She called me wondering why the fermentation stopped. She didn't want to spend the 79 cents on yeast made for wine and have a controlled fermentation.

There are an average of 4 rat hairs per hot dog.
Source: Consumer Reports.

I wasn't attributing the statement to you.

You said:

Austinhomebrew said:

I have heard it mentioned many times at conventions by yeast manufacturers and wine kit manufacturers.

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So, you've heard yeast manufacturers say, "Don't use bread yeast because it contains bacteria." This at least IMPLIES that you should buy their yeast instead. This statement is therefore AT LEAST self-serving. It may also be true! All I'm saying is that I like to hear such a statement from someone who isn't financially dependent on the statement being believed.

This was a wine kit manufactuer that does not manufacture yeast.

I'm not saying it's true or not; it does seem to have somewhat of the ring of an urban legend about it. However, one thing is for sure; bread yeast is primarily yeast, or else people would be making nasty piles of glop instead of bread dough. I would think the same good brewing/winemaking techniques would apply for bread yeast as any other yeast--sanitize well; use Campden if you're working with raw fruit or honey; and provide an optimum environment for yeasts as opposed to bacteria (good temp, O2, nutrients if needed, etc.) Bread dough only rises for a few hours, so bread yeasts are optimized for a fast start; therefore if conditions are right they will easily crowd out any other organisms and once they start making alcohol they will kill off competition. I can't see where the risk of infection is any greater than with any other type of yeast. I think it's a non-issue; if you like the results you're getting keep doing what works. If it doesn't work then try something else. That's the whole point of home brewing.

Yeah, that's my thinking. Like I said, I'm really just screwing around. If it turns out, then it's a bonus, but watching how fast this thing ferments (literally hundreds of small CO2 bubbles per second!) has been worth the cost of admission.

1 gallon apple juice - $3.60
1 packet of bread yeast - $0.50
Watching the fastest ferment EVER - priceless

Anywho, I agree with jcobbs that I'm not arguing the truthfulness of the statement. I also hope he's right that the yeasties have crowded out anything else. At what ABV does an infection become less likely?

I also found this podcast, which seems to indicate that bread yeast CAN produce a good alcoholic beverage:

Basic Brewing™ : Home Brewing Beer Podcast and DVD - September 28, 2007 - Trading Places: Beer and Bread Yeast

Why not try it, right?

Thanks!

I think the original brew date for this batch was 9/6. Now it's 9/28. It JUST stopped bubbling over the weekend. Considering how fast the original fermentation was, I am SHOCKED by how long active fermentation continued.

At this point, the cider is still very cloudy. I'm hoping that is the yeast still in suspension that will (hopefully) flocculate out. Anyway, I'm in no hurry to push this batch along. Considering the time line of JAOM, I'm thinking that 2 months or so seems to be about what it takes to wait out bread yeast. This may not be worth the cost savings, especially if the flavor suffers.

In any case, this is still an interesting batch! I'll keep you posted as it continues...

one of the things with bread yeast that makes it not as good as a fermented beverage, is that the strain was maintained to produce carbon dioxide, not focusing at all on flocculation or ester and fusel production. Bread yeast is really bad at dropping out, and wont' flocculate out worth a darn, and when it finally does, it will not form a compact yeast cake, more being powdery and hard to avoid getting it into bottles.

IMHO, spend the extra $1 or so and get a pack of s-04, you won't regret it, and you will thank yourself when the cider is ready.

I have made cider with bread yeast and it turned out really nice, way better than the batch I made with Montrachet. It may not have aged well but a few weeks after making it everyone around the campfire enjoyed getting blackout drunk off of it.

Did it eventually flocculate out? I'm looking at probably doing some gelatin finings in a few weeks if it's still cloudy. Do you think that would work?

Thanks!

@Freeze,

I know that's the way to go. I've got an LHBS nearby and buy good yeast from them all the time. This experiment is designed to test just exactly what kind of alcohol beverages I can ferment with ingredients bought exclusively from the grocery store.

If I wanted to do a cider for real, I'd get a champagne or dry ale yeast. Not the point here.

Thanks!

MBM30075 said:

Did it eventually flocculate out? I'm looking at probably doing some gelatin finings in a few weeks if it's still cloudy. Do you think that would work?

Thanks!

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It would probably work, it flocced good for me and I didn't even stick it in the fridge.

I think bread yeasts may be somewhat inconsistent as far as how they floc out, considering what I've read and experienced. If you read the JAOM threads, the time to clearing is all over the place, from 3 weeks to several months. I have three batches going with bread yeast right now, and my first batch is still almost as cloudy as when it began, while another batch which was started two or three weeks later is clearing very nicely. The batch which is clearing dropped what looked like a huge amount of lees; however, when I racked it to secondary it turned out that the lees just stuck to the sides of the carboy a bit and made them look thicker than they were. Actually I had very little trouble racking to secondary and leaving the lees behind. My experience with bread yeasts has been that they are fine for certain situations, such as JAOM or maybe a sweet cider; just know up front that you will have to deal with certain characteristics which may not be as consistent or as ideal as with a wine yeast. When you think about it that's not so much different from working with wild yeasts; you take what you get and deal with it.

Interesting thread. I would point out that "extremely active yeast" is a flash cooled yeast culture that leaves more of the little suckers alive than the traditional process.
I would think that food grade bread yeast cultures would be in-line with beer yeast cultures in quality control.
The differences will be in esters produced at different temperatures, and how well they do what we want it to do. All yeast will produce alcohol with ferment-able sugars, its just what they do.
Personally apple juice is too expensive to do this with a large batch when I have enough washed brewing yeast around to drown a horse.
But please keep us updated, I always have around 2-5 packs of extreme bakers yeast in the fridge also. If it can create something great I want to know about it.

I just finished a batch of cider using regular storebought baking yeast , and brown sugar. It came out really yeasty tasting but not too bad at all. It was nearly done bubbling in 5-7 days , thats when I bottled it. Its really cloudy with gunk at the bottom but was a really quick and even with the yeasty taste it is kind of an addictive flavor. I could have let it go longer or did a secondary , but it was the first try and I couldnt wait.

ohiochris, I'll bet if you leave some of that cider long enough to clear it will be even better. I was the same way with my first batch of Welch's grape juice wine--couldn't wait to try it. It was kind of like drinking grape koolaid while eating uncooked pizza dough--not unpleasant, but somewhat odd. Personally I find that Munton's ale yeast kind of bridges the gap between bread yeast and brewing yeasts--if you pump it with enough sugar it will finish out sweet, but it doesn't have as much bread-dough taste as baking yeast. I have a batch of cider going right now with dark brown sugar and ale yeast--haven't tasted it yet but it's smelling mighty good...

I am about to try some with a turbo or super yeast if I can find some in my area. If not I will just be using baking yeast again because it is fast acting. I am on my fourth day with a batch making with champagne yeast , knowing it will take a while to see results I ventured another experiment in another bucket with about 2 gallons of water , 4 pounds of brown sugar , some apple pie spice and cinnimon , and one gallon apple juice. If I cant locate any super yeast I will just throw the baking type in there and have some seasonal drink in 5 to 7 days. I drank my last 2 bottles of my first "experiment" batch last night and I gotta say,...as someone who can drink a six pack and remain relatively sober , just 2 bottles of that stuff had me a little loopey......so, even using baking yeast the alcohol content had to be more than regular storebought beer.

Now I want to experiment using an ale yeast to make bread...

How about using a cider yeast cake, with all of the apple cider solids and the yeast?

I dont make bread, but I've been thinking about getting in touch with one of the local bakeries, so that when I rack a bunch of ciders I dont have to just dump the trub. I get about half a gallon of waste over 3 rackings on every 5 gallon batch, so that would be about 20 gallons of ale yeast and apple solids a season if I could find someone that could use it.

IrritableGourmet said:

Now I want to experiment using an ale yeast to make bread...

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It's been done:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=trading-places-beer-and-bread-yeast

Just finished my first batch with Rapid Rise Bread Yeast, and although I don't have any experience with homebrewing, I must say this tastes pretty good.
I bought a bottle of Treetop applejuice (3 apple blend, very good) and put it in a cleaned out 2 liter soda bottle.
I added 1/4 cup of brown sugar and 1/4 cup white sugar, along with 1/8 tsp Fleischmans Rapid Rise Bread Yeast that I had in my cupboard.
I shook it all up, screwed the cap on tight and let it sit in a dark closet for about a day. After 1 day the bottle was already quite firm and carbonated, so I loosened the cap just until the CO2 started hissing out (makeshift airlock!), and put it back.
After 8 days fermenting I tasted it, tasted like crap and very yeasty but had just the right amount of sweetness that I wanted, so I closed the cap again and let it ferment another two days until the bottle felt like it was going to explode (to carbonate it fully).
Put the bottle in the fridge and cold crashed it, and let it sit for about 2 weeks. So today (10/24) from start (10/4) it is fully cleared and it tastes pretty good. I don't have a hydrometer so I don't know the specific gravity, but i'm judging it to be around 4% abv maybe lite beer territory. I can still smell the faint aroma of the bread yeast, but you really have to be looking for it to notice.

Summary:
Rapid Rise bread yeast works when all else fails!

I just tried my very first batch of hard cider it seems pretty strong (alcohol level), and it's really really sweet.. tastes good other than WAY too sweet..
I used 1/2 gallon unpasteurized cider, bread yeast, 1 1/2 cups white sugar and 1 1/2 cups lt. brown sugar
The flavor turned out fine, it's pretty appley(?).. just way too sweet

Um... Luigi, it shouldn't be a surprise that you got a really sweet beverage.
Based on my cider experiments, apple juice/cider has an SG of about 1.048-1.050. Let's assume that yours was more like 1.035.
I'm not sure how much you packed in your brown sugar, but 1.5 cups of white sugar should weigh something like 10 ounces. Let's call it 8 (1/2 pound). Let's go conservative and say 8 ounces of brown sugar, too.
I'm also assuming you didn't dilute your apple juice, and that the additional sugars brought the total final volume to 0.6 gallons (this should also be conservative).

Here's a summary:
********************
Ingredients
********************
.5 gallons apple cider (juice)
1/2 pound white table sugar
1/2 pound light brown sugar

Batch Size: 0.6 gallons

Beersmith Calculations:
OG: 1.110

Now, according to what I've read, you'll be lucky if bread yeast ferments up to 8% ABV. Therefore, once that threshold is reached, your FG is still 1.050!!! That's the OG for my ciders!!!!

Hope this helps.

hidden2u said:

Just finished my first batch with Rapid Rise Bread Yeast, and although I don't have any experience with homebrewing, I must say this tastes pretty good.
I bought a bottle of Treetop applejuice (3 apple blend, very good) and put it in a cleaned out 2 liter soda bottle.
I added 1/4 cup of brown sugar and 1/4 cup white sugar, along with 1/8 tsp Fleischmans Rapid Rise Bread Yeast that I had in my cupboard.
I shook it all up, screwed the cap on tight and let it sit in a dark closet for about a day. After 1 day the bottle was already quite firm and carbonated, so I loosened the cap just until the CO2 started hissing out (makeshift airlock!), and put it back.
After 8 days fermenting I tasted it, tasted like crap and very yeasty but had just the right amount of sweetness that I wanted, so I closed the cap again and let it ferment another two days until the bottle felt like it was going to explode (to carbonate it fully).
Put the bottle in the fridge and cold crashed it, and let it sit for about 2 weeks. So today (10/24) from start (10/4) it is fully cleared and it tastes pretty good. I don't have a hydrometer so I don't know the specific gravity, but i'm judging it to be around 4% abv maybe lite beer territory. I can still smell the faint aroma of the bread yeast, but you really have to be looking for it to notice.

Summary:
Rapid Rise bread yeast works when all else fails!

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I would be very careful with that method. Without an airlock you're just asking for a giant, sticky mess in your closet to clean up.

MBM30075:

I started a thread about it, I'm thinking about adding approx. 1 liter of a pasteurized (no preservatives) cider, and lavlin EC-1118 yeast to restart the fermentation. I'm hoping to get a slightly sweet result still but I'm not really worried about it.

warispeace said:

I would be very careful with that method. Without an airlock you're just asking for a giant, sticky mess in your closet to clean up.

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Yeah, airlocks are so cheap there's no reason not to use one, but I wanted to do it with the least amount of specialty equipment as possible.

And I'm not too concerned about making a mess. First, its a half gallon so its not that much. Second, as long as the cap is loosened the CO2 is able to escape and not blow up the bottle (btw there wasn't very much krausen/foam because the pressurization kept it from developing too fast).

hidden2u said:

And I'm not too concerned about making a mess. First, its a half gallon so its not that much. Second, as long as the cap is loosened the CO2 is able to escape and not blow up the bottle (btw there wasn't very much krausen/foam because the pressurization kept it from developing too fast).

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you'd be surprised at what a mess it could make. I had to clean up a 12oz bottle that blew up in my cabinet that I store my beer equipment in. That small amount got into places that amazed me and took a couple hours to clean up. Everything was sticky