Did you break even yet?

AmandaK said:

I have NO IDEA how you guys come to the conclusion that you're "breaking even" with this hobby. Yes, it's a hobby and I don't track the costs to be anal, I'm just curious. But I'm a Cost Analyst, so such is life.

Click to expand...

BIAB is the huge difference for me. Propane burner kits are under $100 with an aluminum pot. Throw in a $5 mesh bag and you are ready to brew. You can spend another $100 for ball valve, sight glass, thermometer, but that is an unnecessary expense.

I'm at least $1000+ up (without labor factor) over my past year of brewing. Now if I went three-tier with Boilmakers, now I'm at the very least $1000 in the hole.

broadbill said:

I had a point-for-point answer to your reply but decided to take a different tack, so I hope you entertain me:

If you are truly breaking even with homebrewing, is it true that you would also breaking even at the commercial level? Why or why not?

Assume you already have a brewery up and operating and would not have to pay any start-up costs.

Click to expand...

At the end of the day, when the beer is all in the bottles and I drink my first pint, I have more money in my pocket than if I had bought a comparable beer off the shelf, even if I take into account fuel and equipement costs. You said it yourself, it's a hobby. It's not a job. We're not commercial brewers and we'll never be. The time I invest in brewing I would not invest in a money earning endeavour so my time is worth 0$. As someone eloquently said before, I'd be sitting on ass. My hobby doesn't scale to commercial level for one good reason: it has jack-diddly squat to do with commercial brewing except the fermentation of wort into beer.

I might have less "virtual money" or whatever currency my free time is supposedly valued at, but my wallet is still heavier in real life. Sorry.

rhamilton said:

BIAB is the huge difference for me. Propane burner kits are under $100 with an aluminum pot. Throw in a $5 mesh bag and you are ready to brew. You can spend another $100 for ball valve, sight glass, thermometer, but that is an unnecessary expense.

I'm at least $1000+ up (without labor factor) over my past year of brewing. Now if I went three-tier with Boilmakers, now I'm at the very least $1000 in the hole.

Click to expand...

Bingo. It's once you start upgrading that you trade convenience/repeatability for cost effectiveness. It also depends on the styles you brew. Hops aren't cheap.

AmandaK said:

So far, I'm 55 batches in, I haven't bought craft beer in quite a long time, and I'm down to $10.14 per sixer. Am I saving money? Absolutely not. Am I having a blast? You betcha.

Click to expand...

Depending on what you brew, if you were in Quebec, there's a very big chance you would be breaking even. A sixer of Unibroue is usually 12$. On rebate.

True, and usually the 24oz bottle is around 7$ for Unibroue, smaller craft breweries are around 5$ for 16 oz to boot. Quebec is expensive on everything alcohol related, wine, spirits beer is taxed up the wazoo. I'm fine with it though.

The problem is that "Free" beer on tap goes quicker than the beer you have to drive somewhere and pay for.

ALSO comparing homebrew to bars or ball parks is a little off IMHO. Unless you NEVER bought beer and took it home.

compared to Buying beer at the store and bringing it home, there is no way I am ahead. Doesn't bother me in the least. I am drinking $12 a sixer beer for $5 a sixer.

If I was buying, I would NEVER buy a $12 sixer every time. To compare apples to oranges is fooling yourself.

AmandaK said:

I have NO IDEA how you guys come to the conclusion that you're "breaking even" with this hobby. Yes, it's a hobby and I don't track the costs to be anal, I'm just curious. But I'm a Cost Analyst, so such is life.

I have a spreadsheet that I track every equipment purchase, sorted by type (Brewing/Kegging/Bottling/Fermenting), the ingredient cost and my bulk purchases.

So far, I'm 55 batches in, I haven't bought craft beer in quite a long time, and I'm down to $10.14 per sixer. Am I saving money? Absolutely not. Am I having a blast? You betcha.

Click to expand...

I have a brewing partner who owes me money towards our costs so I have been tracking all of them...nothing to do with being anal (although I am anal!). I'm 41 batches in and my cost on a 6 pack ranges from $2 - $8 but I'm buying grain through a homebrew club group buy at $0.67 cents per lb delivered on base malt and hops at $1.05 per oz delivered when buying by the lb which makes a tremendous difference.

i just bought a stainless steel hop spider ($100+) a new burner for my top tier ($155).....no, i have not broken even.

jfr1111 said:

Depending on what you brew, if you were in Quebec, there's a very big chance you would be breaking even. A sixer of Unibroue is usually 12$. On rebate.

Click to expand...

+1

A sixer of a Japanese craft brew here is ~$30. A sixer of a BMC type beer is ~$15. And it does not get much cheaper buying at Costco or a big supermarket.

The cheapest beer I've seen is the Kirkland brand beers. Costco sells the 12 packs or whatever they come in, but Nissin, a big supermarket catering to foreign foods, was selling singles for less than a domestic BMC type beer, at ~$2.40/each.

I have surely broken even, SAVED money too be honest.

My original all grain equipment setup costed me about $100 total. 2 free kegs, 1 from a friend who was tossing one, the other for 10 bucks from some random craigslister, plus a cooler mash tun and a cheapy valve from osh. Couple of carboys and the total was <$100.

With that we average about $.30-$1.00 a beer (OBVIOUSLY not including "Labor" which is free on weekends around here!) The cheapest beer I can get from the store is a 24 pack of SNPA and even that's pushing >$1.00/beer and to be honest, it's a great beer, but drinking it non stop gets old.

IF we run out of beer we typically grab a sixer of something from a specialty liquor store that has many styles of craft brew, but obviously for a price. $12 for a 4 pack of 90 minute IPA? Great beer, not gonna pay that though!

It's all about the age old dilemma between time vs money. I could have went out and purchased all of my stuff from a store and paid a LOT more from it, but I'm in it for good beer, and most of all, CHEAP. I don't have any money anyways, so the whole "I NEED IT NOW" doesn't apply to me.

One of the great things about this hobby is that you can take it as far as you like. With the knowledge found in just this forum alone you can produce great beer with as little as a Mr. Beer kit or as much as a Nano brewery. I could make good beer with my Mr. Beer and slightly better beer with my $150 midwest kit. Now that I have over $2K invested in equipment and ingredients I have much more control and fun with it but still just make beer/wine.

Aside:
I take my wife out to dinner/movies often and don't think twice about spending $30 per date. I could have rented a movie at redbox for $1 and fired it up on my 106" projector and had microwave popcorn and home brewed beer instead for much cheaper.

FYI
I am writing this post after drinking 4, yes 4, of my home brewed Belgium Chimay like Triples (yes about 8% each). What is that, about $6 a bottle? Probably cost about $15 in ingredients for 5 gallons.
edit:
Just pulled #5 and watched this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/open-condom-style-349718/
Can't stop dancing, so catchy, and funny...

My first year I kept things simple. I did a few extract batches and then I went all grain BIAB. I was bottling during that time and it took me one year to break even based on a cost spreadsheet I made. I used $7.99 per 6 pack as a comparison.

I have since spent some money on equipment (legging and mash tun) but I am sure I will break even by the end of this year.

Keep it simple and buy in bulk.

I've done over 200 beers and would say I am well ahead of commercial prices.

I am anal with my record keeping, and I average $0.35 for a bottle of 6.2% abv beer for ingredients. If I add in equipment costs it is a little less than $0.50 per beer.

If i were to budget my time, it would not be so favorable.

I guess the importance of breaking even really depends on what you want to get out brewing.

So I'm a Ph.d student, and my brewing philosophy is directly related to advice I was given on how to handle a ridiculously busy (and I appreciate how busy everyone has become in this economy) and unpredictable schedule. I was told, "work as hard as you can, but do what you need to do to have a fulfilling and rich life." Brewing is one thing [along with family and friends] that allows me to have a rich and fulfilling life.

I love the challenge of it. I like to think that I have made (and continue to make) both amazing and undrinkable beer. If I kept a very detailed ledger, I'm sure I'd be somewhere around breaking even after moving into bulk purchases and keeping my processes simple, but to me that's almost irrelevant.

I understand those who brew because it allows them to enjoy beer of a superior quality at significantly decreased prices. In places like quebec or for people in difficult occupational situations it provides a boost in the quality of life, as well as the satisfaction that comes with enjoying the fruits of your labor.

Sorry if I sound preachy or overbearing. I, for whatever reason, have become really passionate about brewing, and it's hard to express my love of it without sounding *****y. I love this stuff, and the community that comes with it.

LMAO!!!! This all....

CoalCracker said:

LMAO!!!! This all....

Click to expand...

I should have just left it at that.

I charge myself $50/hour so I am coming out way behind.

Seriously though, if homebrew replaced buying craft beer, I would be ahead even extract brewing. Unfortunately instead of replacing craft beer the homebrew supplements it and I probably drink more.

I had one too many homebrews when I wrote my last response.

Cheers, all

Probably. Depends on what I would be drinking if I wasn't homebrewing. Probably BMC. Still it would be close. But that is just a minor justification for me.

If I were doing this primarily to save money, and fretting over how much my time were worth, I wouldn't need an extensive cost analysis or ROI study to know that I'd be better off simply getting a second or third job to fill the hours I spend brewing and researching and drinking and peering wistfully into carboys and trying to post witty comments on beer forums.

This hobby is one of the best things I have going for me. It gives me something fun to do, an opportunity to pursue excellence, a creative outlet, another thing always to look forward to and be excited about in life. If I were turning all that into a commodity with a dollar amount, I am way better than breaking even.

the secret to breaking even is creative accounting. When I buy stuff a Lowe's, it counts as home improvement. Need a keezer - appliances. When I buy grain-well that's sort of like food. If you do it right, brewing is free.. Its all relative.

As counter intuitive as it might seem the key to getting ahead is brewing more beer than you can drink. My friends come by for free bottles of beer...they are great about giving me honest, objective feedback. They are also great about making sure that I know how much they "appreciate" my beer. A buddy came by today and handed me a blank envelope....with a gift card inside! Obviously I don't ask for that but it sure is nice.

I'm gonna go ahead and have another beer. I almost for a second there thought about math.

I'm going to buck the norm here and say "Yes" I think I'm ahead of the game. Sure I still buy the occasional case of craft beer, but at $40.00 or more a case, it adds up quick. I just went to 10 Gal batches, and bought a grain mill so I can buy in bulk. At $170 for the mill vs 1.75 per pound for crushed 2 row, that will pay for itself after 170 Lbs of grain crushed.(probably 4 or 5 months brewing for me)
I have some hops growing in the back yard,(though I do love citra which is expensive) and I harvest all my yeast.I BIAB so I don't have a lot of equipment, and I'm fortunate to have great well water, so no cost there. I have 2 HBS within 20 mins of my house, so shipping costs aren't an added expense. I don't count my time because I love brewing.

Obviously we'll never be ahead, because most don't sell our product, but case for case I think I'm making better beer for less a case than BMC on sale. Then again I've been drinking, so who knows

broadbill said:

This is like saying that you went to the casino with $100, lost it all at the table and concluded that you broke even just because you only lost what you were planning to gamble.

The reality is that there is $100 in your bank account.

Click to expand...

When you gamble recreationally you consider the money lost/won vs the enjoyment of the experience. The same holds true for brewing. You make beer and hopefully enjoy it; this enjoyment itself hopefully has value. The joy you get from brewing should equal, or in my case, far exceeds, any potentially lost earnings.

oakbarn said:

I figure I am down to about $38.96 per 12 ounce glass now. I enjoy it with my $64.67/lb deer sausage. But boy is it worth it. We make great beer.

Click to expand...

I also deer hunt, and ride a street bike, so anytime I'm brewing instead it's making me plenty of money...quit trying to "break even" on this great hobby!

I would really, really have think about it but I think I am at least close to breaking if I exclude the cost of my time (which I don't see as a cost but a benefit of homebrewing that I don't get out of going to the store to buy beer) and calculate it against the cost of buying beer at the store. We don't really have a lot of cheap growler fill options so everything comes down to buying in the bottle or can. But I have a very basic set up, I make my ingredient purchases as economical as it makes sense and I don't brew a lot of hoppy beers so I spend a lot less per batch than somebody making an IIPA. I also yeast wash a lot and I'm trying to replenish my supply of yeast by bottle harvesting rather than buying the same strains for $8 a piece.

Brewing sour beers really makes that cost analysis fairly simple. I have a six gallon fermenter of lambic. If I wanted to buy the same quantity of lambic at the store, my only non-backsweetened lambic option is Lindeman's gueze or Timmerman's gueuze. Each runs about $10-11 per 750ml. Six gallons would be 30 bottles so at least $300 plus tax (8.25%). Granted, I would acquire lots of new bottles (but if I wasn't homebrewing the bottles would go in the recycle bin so there would be no added value) but I bought the fermentor for $30 and it cost about $30 to make the batch, so that's $240 or more saved on that one batch of beer. Even slightly cheaper sours, like Rodenbach Grand Cru, go for $7-8 for a 750 here so you're still talking a big difference in price. Ok, I'm not making the same quality of sour beer but it's excellent lambic nonetheless. I bet if I stopped brewing everything else, only brewed sours and bought all the rest of my beer I'd come out way ahead because they are cheap beers to make and the key factor in taste is time and that's free (for the beer).

As far as hobbies go this isn't the most expensive because if I wasn't brewing beer I'd buy it instead so there's some intrinsic cost-shifting in the hobby itself. However, if I had a fancy set up I'd probably be far away from breaking even.

(off topic)

trumpetbeard said:

So I'm a Ph.d student, and my brewing philosophy is directly related to advice I was given on how to handle a ridiculously busy (and I appreciate how busy everyone has become in this economy) and unpredictable schedule. I was told, "work as hard as you can, but do what you need to do to have a fulfilling and rich life." Brewing is one thing [along with family and friends] that allows me to have a rich and fulfilling life.

Click to expand...

What field are you in? My major professor told me that my research was supposed to BE my life. He was upset that I spent time brewing, woodworking, serving on a local community service group and enjoying my wife's company. I was advised to wake up thinking about my research, work on it all day, go to sleep thinking about it and dream about it. I told him to look in DSM IV under "Obsessive Disorder" and he'd find what he described. I took my M.S. and quit after that discussion.

bioguy said:

What field are you in? My major professor told me that my research was supposed to BE my life. He was upset that I spent time brewing, woodworking, serving on a local community service group and enjoying my wife's company. I was advised to wake up thinking about my research, work on it all day, go to sleep thinking about it and dream about it. I told him to look in DSM IV under "Obsessive Disorder" and he'd find what he described. I took my M.S. and quit after that discussion.

Click to expand...

(off topic) I'm in ethnomusicology. Were you in a hard science (bio, as in your HBT name, perhaps)? I hear that the attitude is a little more severe on that side of the coin.

I was told this during a conversation about people burning out and dropping out of the program or finishing their 5-6 of work with either no ambition of continuing or feeling immensely unfulfilled by their work alone. I think the whole mentality of the department I'm in is "healthy happy people do better work."

I'm pretty gung-ho about research and writing - as you stated there's no way to do this much brutally specific work without being that way - but at a certain point I have to step out of the library for sanity's sake. I LOVE what I do, but at the some time there needs to be other things in my life to keep me focused.

Bummer it didn't work out for you, but I hope that you're happy now and have time for all the things you like to do now. Cheers.

Edit: grammar

I brew beer because I love brewing beer and sharing with friends and family. Economically speaking, that has value that is hard to quantify - but results in a consumable product that has a quantifiable value. So, if you like brewing beer more than fixed cost and variable cost to brewing than you have broken even. So I break even every time I brew.

asidrane said:

When you gamble recreationally you consider the money lost/won vs the enjoyment of the experience. The same holds true for brewing. You make beer and hopefully enjoy it; this enjoyment itself hopefully has value. The joy you get from brewing should equal, or in my case, far exceeds, any potentially lost earnings.

Click to expand...

Nope; I totally understand the logic behind it both examples. After all, I take the time to brew instead of doing more productive activities.

I was just making the point its not a true cost-saving thing in the strictest sense (i.e. taking into account labor costs). I'm sorry if was pooping in people's corn flakes who had themselves convinced otherwise.

OTOH, being aware of labor costs could have its place. I know people go hunting around for bulk hop prices that might save them $1-5 per batch. What about looking into a way to shave 1/2 hour off your brew time (buying a pump for example)? You could justify spending the $200-250 on a pump if you save $10-20 in time (depending on how you value yours). That would pay itself off in 20-25 batches.

Goes both ways...

Grain: $18.99
Yeast: $4.29
Hops: $6.27
Your own brew: Priceless

(off topic)

trumpetbeard said:

(off topic) I'm in ethnomusicology. Were you in a hard science (bio, as in your HBT name, perhaps)? I hear that the attitude is a little more severe on that side of the coin.
...

Bummer it didn't work out for you, but I hope that you're happy now and have time for all the things you like to do now. Cheers.

Click to expand...

Yes, I studied the biology of tree diseases. I'm happy with my decisions and don't regret not getting the Ph.D. I teach biology and chemistry to smart high school kids, and at the community college. I incorporate brewing into my teaching. There's a LOT of biology and chemistry involved and it seems to be a good hook. Apparently, I could also use it to teach economics. Cheers back.

oakbarn said:

Grain: $18.99
Yeast: $4.29
Hops: $6.27
Your own brew: Priceless

Click to expand...

Sentiment appreciated. In addition to that, your post reminds me of an observation I've always had. Most people limit their cost estimate to these 3 things., When I quote my cost I also include the cost of propane and a misc. cost for things like salts / yeast nutrient / whirfloc / etc. Anybody else do this when they give an estimate on the cost of their batch?

koopa said:

Sentiment appreciated. In addition to that, your post reminds me of an observation I've always had. Most people limit their cost estimate to these 3 things., When I quote my cost I also include the cost of propane and a misc. cost for things like salts / yeast nutrient / whirfloc / etc. Anybody else do this when they give an estimate on the cost of their batch?

Click to expand...

Agree....you need to include all the "little things" too. And many people use things differently. Star San lasts me forever, because I don't feel the need to make a fresh 5 gal batch every time I brew and soak every piece of equipment I have in it, and I know some on here that do.

Some burners are more efficient and use less propane than others.

I'm lucky enough to have great well water. The soil is very sandy and is a natural filter. I live on top of a mountain, (well I'm from PA so more like a hill to you Colorado folks) so I have no contaminants that low lying areas can have, but some have to buy water, or put additives in....not to mention water and sewer costs.

Some people have said " your time is worth XXX dollars ".....and it's not.
Unless someone is willing to pay you for your time, it's worth absolutely nothing in a monetary sense.

How much was your time worth that you spent posting on HBT?

Me.....with 10gal biab and buying in bulk. I'm at 2.00 or less a 6 pack depending on hops. My Pliny and Zombie dust are a little more, but well worth it.

It's a hobby, one that I enjoy and get a product I would otherwise buy out of. I'm not even remotely concerned with figuring out a per batch cost, life's too short.

My first priority is to make excellent beer, and I am more than happy to stand my beer up next to any commercial. I think I make excellent beer.

Without compromising quality, I also try and see how I can minimize costs and time to brew a batch.

I started brewing 15 years ago. I took 7 years off and then re-started a few years ago. Since re-starting I have documented every penny I have spent on supplies, ingredients, hardware (pots, straining bags, sugar, grain, extract, fermcap, caps sanitizer, etc, etc). I've also counted every bottled brewed.

I've produced about 5,000 bottles of beer, average abv of 6.3%, at a cost of 46 cents a bottle. This cost includes the ingredients I still have not used (about 100 lbs of grain and 10 lbs of hops).

The only items not included in the cost is my labor (it's a hobby!), and electricity for the stove.

I think it is part of the hobby to try and make the beer as cheaply as possible without compromising quality.

Yes, I think I have broken even; and am way ahead.

koopa said:

Sentiment appreciated. In addition to that, your post reminds me of an observation I've always had. Most people limit their cost estimate to these 3 things., When I quote my cost I also include the cost of propane and a misc. cost for things like salts / yeast nutrient / whirfloc / etc. Anybody else do this when they give an estimate on the cost of their batch?

Click to expand...

Yes, everything except labor. If I wasn't brewing I wouldn't be doing anything productive.

Break even? I never even kept track because I didn't get into home brewing to save money.

i dont keep track but im sure i did, im cheap in general so i wash yeast buy grain and hops in bulk and use very cheap natural gas system in my garage. I guess its $20-40 per 10gal batch and i dont think i paid more than $400 for my equipment