Now I know why people quit brewing.....

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Newton

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I've done 10 batches now and the first 7 were good to very tasty. Batches 8 and 9 turned into fizzy sour vinegar and the jury is still out on batch 10. Batches 1 through 7 I used smack packs, some with starters. The last 3 have been dried yeast with no starter. I think that the source of my contamination has been the scissors that I used to cut open the dry yeast pack with...or the yeast package itself. I didn't sanitize either of them.

Its extremely frustrating. These have all been all grain batches and a considerable time investment considering I have small kids. The success of my first batches has encouraged me to plod forward and learn from mistakes, but I can understand why people give up.
 
Sounds like it's time to nuke all your equipment. Any cheap plastic stuff (tubing, etc.) should be replaced and anything not cheap to replace should be thoroughly sterilized. Use a bleach solution to clean all your equipment that comes into contact with beer post-boil. Then rinse it well to get any bleach residue off. Also consider changing your sanitizer for a couple batches. If you usually use starsan, use iodophor for a couple batches. Any bugs that have developed resistance to one should be taken out by the other. It's better to just bite the bullet and kick the problems ass now, than try one or two things (sanitizing scissors and yeast pack) and not fix the problem and have to deal with another infected batch and more wasted time and money.
 
Get some PBW and give all of your fermenters/bottling buckets a good HOT soak. Fermenting beer can leave behind some bio matter that you can't see. Since scrubbing plastic is a no-no, PBW will remove any residue or "beer stone" from the plastic better than any other cleaner. Also, if you don't already do it, take off the plastic spigot from the bottling bucket, then take the spigot apart. Soak that in PBW also. Those spigots get really nasty, really fast. Replace any cheap plastic hose you have.

Follow the cleaning soak with a good sanitizer like Starsan or Iodophor. Remember, you have to clean AND sanitize.

If the infection is consistent throughout the batch, its probably not the bottles, but its good to revisit that too. Im really happy with the jet bottle washer that attaches to my sink. Obviously I rinse them when I pour a beer. I also hit them with the jet washer on bottling day just to blast out any remaining residue. I'm also a huge fan of the Vinator, which will squirt sanitizer up into the bottle.

There is an off chance it could be the scissors, but if its happening on several different occasions I'm pretty sure its something else. Hope you figure it out!
 
If you bottle, check the spigot on your bottling bucket first. Take it off, take it apart and soak in a bleach solution then rinse thoroughly. Chances are, that is where your nasties are.
 
Thanks for the tips guys. One thing is that I could taste the sour/vinegar nastiness while it was in the primary fermenter, so the contamination is not occurring at bottling (I only bottled the first batch anyway). Another thing is that the fermentation bucket is brand spanking new 'ale pale'--these two were the only batches to go in it.

I don't believe that the wort chiller is the source as I put that in the boil at t=15. So its definitely happening from a bug in the yeast pitching or the fermenter and its components. Given that all of the fermentation equipment is soaked in starsan at its proper ratio--the only bug I can see is in the yeast pitching.
 
A lot of people always want to point out the bottling bucket spigot as the possible culprit.

I have to tell you the REAL culprit is the person NOT cleaning their equipment properly.

In most cases, the beer is only in contact with the spigot for about 1/2 hour. It's like the shortest time that anything else is in contact with it.

If you rinse the bottling bucket (as well as everything else) several times right after using you shouldn't have any problems with it.

I haven't disassembled my spigot since the 1990s and it doesn't have any contamination on it...I guarantee.;)
 
Maybe I missed it but is the primary plastic too? I actually had a couple infections about the same time (10th batch or so) and after changing to a glass primary haven't had any since. I had an immediate suspicion of the primary bucket though, it had a lovely green ring with lots of scuffs around it, great place for bugs to hide.
 
Yep primary is plastic and brand new. And once again, I could tell the beer was infected before the bottling bucket.
 
You don't need to do much more than clean the scissors or knife if you make a tiny slit in the edge of the foil packet that isn't deep enough to open the pouch. All you need to do then is tear open the packet and you're infection free.
 
In my experience, healthy yeast have been the undisputed king of micro-organisms and bacteria have never stood a chance growing or living in the primary. In the early days I once left a porter out on the back porch for 2 days in the fall and THEN added yeast and still had no contams. Remember, yeast are so badass brewers originally just left the wort outside and the yeast STILL beat bacteria to the punch.

The only time I've had a contamination was when the yeast were comprimised; one time when i left the pack in the sun and the other when i didn't cool the wort down enough. It's also possible that you underpitched a touchy strain of yeast, I thought my first belgian strong ale was contaminated as 1 smack pack cannot handle 5.5 gallons of 1.090 wort.

As far as sanitizing the packet goes, I just throw it in my fermenter while it's filling with sanitizing solution along with the airlock, hydrometer and all the other brew stuff.
 
I will be doing extracts. Do I really need to sanitize the scissors and the yeast pack before I open it?

I dont. But then again. It seems unlikely that bacteria from the scissors would go onto the packet, into the beer.

They say grains have a lot of yeast on it, so if you use those scissors on the bag your grains came in, then i guess i could see it.
 
Reading up on sour vinegar like off flavors, aside from sanitation, I have a question or two.

Did you raise the temps of your fermentation chamber or location?

Did you perhaps Mash longer than before?

If neither changed then it may be the new dry yeast strain.


Here is the write up I referred to in asking the above questions.
------------------------------------
SOUR-ACIDIC
CHARACTERISTICS: Another of the basic taste sensations, sourness is perceived on the sides of the tongue towards the back of the mouth. At higher levels it can be felt in the throat. Generally in beer this is perceived as a sour aroma and a tartness or vinegar like aroma. Sourness from bacterial contamination can also be perceived as spoilage or putrefaction.

CHEMISTRY: Caused by lactobacillus, pediococcus, acetobacter and some yeast strains.

HIGH CONTENT DUE TO PROCESS: Poor sanitation; poor yeast strain; excessive amounts of citric or ascorbic acid; high fermentation temperatures; excessive acid rest; mashing too long; storage at warm temperatures; scratched plastic fermenter.

LOW CONTENT DUE TO PROCESS: Good sanitation; cool fermentation temperatures; cool beer storage; mashing for less than two hours; glass carboy or stainless steel fermenters.
--------------------------------
 
If this continues, I would suggest just going back to Extract-Specialty or Mini-Mash.

Much easier, less time consuming, and less steps to screw the beer up. You will still make great beer with more time for the family.
 
If this continues, I would suggest just going back to Extract-Specialty or Mini-Mash.

Much easier, less time consuming, and less steps to screw the beer up. You will still make great beer with more time for the family.

I was going to suggest the same thing (temporarily) with a summer american wheat beer. Something cheap and easy, something to gain your confidence back on your process. Use a tried and true dry yeast like s-05 or Notty.

For the dry yeast, rehydrate it first before pitching. Boil about a cup of water with the thermometer. Let it sit until its 85-92F. Yank the thermometer out then pour the yeast into the water. DO NOT STIR. Let the yeast take in the water on its own. Let sit about 30 minutes. Then pitch on cooled wort.

I did this on my two last batches to see it take off in less than 2 hours.

The yeast will out compete any bacteria in this situation.
 
Another tip worth repeating if you have the space.

When you store your fermentors fill them with bleach water. 2 oz per 5 gallons of water. If they sit for months, they will practically be already sanitized. I don't let this suffice though. I completely rinse them until they no longer smell of bleach and then re-sanitize with my preferred sanitizer. This remove sany gunk in the neck of a carboy in 24 about hours and turns plastic buckets really white. This practice prevents a lot of additional spot cleaning. The bleach does lot to kill anything residing in your fermentors.
 
Since it did not happen with YOUR equipment at another location, it has to be something in the air getting into the wort after boiling and before sealing up the primary. Try turning off the AC after the boil until you get the primary sealed up. That or maybe a thorough spraying of Lysol in the air and on the AC filter pads might help.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Any chance you have a funky airlock - either something nastly living on the airlock or a bad seal
 
Well now come to think of it the last few batches have been done outside by a bunch of flowering plants and resident insects. I wonder if wild yeasts have been getting in there while the wort chiller is running?
 
PBW to clean and Star-san to sanitize (no I don't work for them) and take the time to take apart equipment and clean and sanitize completely. Even boil kettles and mash tuns should be completely broken down from time to time even if you don't have to worry about infection do to heat sterilization. Cleanliness is just part of brewing from beginning to end.
 
I know this is different than the direction the others have been taking this but...What about a change in the water chemistry, things do happen to the water from time to time or have you changed water that you use?

My other thought is when fermenting/bottling what is your process? Could you be bottling to early or is it possible that the beer is left on the yeast cake to long and this is "yeast bite"?
 
I havent brewed in about 8 months because I too got frustrated. I had a hefe get an infection and after much reading here I decided to go ahead and bottle it. It is not a great beer but its actually drinkable 1 or 2 at a time. Kinda wondering if it will be better in 6 months or so. What I think happened is there was some scratches in my primary that led to the contamination. I also had a dunkle (my first AG batch) go bad. What happened there is I used a candy thermometer and read it wrong and got my mash water way high. I ended up with a thin, but dark, bitter beer. The bitterness has mellowed out quite a bit but its really lite. It kinda reminds me of the thinness of Bud Lite. It only turned out at about 4% and when I calculated it in Beersmith was supposed to be about 6.5%.

So ya man I feel why you have the urge to quite. Its really frustrating indeed. I actually have the ingredients to make a Barley Wine. I went to the LHBS store to pick up a new fermenting bucket, lid, tubing and airlock but they were out of lids so I will have to wait. But I'm still gonna give it another go and so should you just dont wait as long as I have.
 
I know this is different than the direction the others have been taking this but...What about a change in the water chemistry, things do happen to the water from time to time or have you changed water that you use?

My other thought is when fermenting/bottling what is your process? Could you be bottling to early or is it possible that the beer is left on the yeast cake to long and this is "yeast bite"?

The thing is that I could taste the distinctive vinegar taste while the beer was still in the primary fermenter. There was also a bubbly film on top of the beer, so I'm pretty sure that the "bug" is somewhere between the end of the boil and the end of fermentation.
 
What kind of yeast were you using? What stage in the primary did you taste the beer? Did you let the beer condition before tasting it again?

Some yeast strains naturaly produce off flavors and need to be given time to clean up after themselves in the conditioning phase.

However bubbly film ( if your not mistaking it for standard kroesen ) may be associated with lacto (wild yeast). Check out the wild yeast brewing forums and see if you can pick the culprit out of the line up.

The way your explaining it it, if it is an infection, I would get glass carboys and just clean or replace all equipment that touches wort after boil. There shouldnt be much. When I used emersion chiller the only things I had to sanitize were a bucket for aeration (pour between kettle and bucket), the airlock and stopper, glass carboy, and funnel. Theres nothing else that would get in there unless your imersion chiller is leaking? Have you checked the fittings on it to ensure no leaks into cooling wort?

I brew outside as well and havent had any issues but Ive heard some people put an old clean t-shirt soaked in sanitizer over the pot while the imersion chiller does it's thing.

Nothing else I can think of that would get in there though.
 
Everything must be sanitized!

I use a weak bleach solution for a lot. Especially my fermenter and lid. I spritz and wipe down surfaces equipment will be sitting on. I soak things in a sanitizer solution while I get other things around, never soak in the bleach. I go so far as to put the sanitized air lock together and put the lid on the clean fermenter to make sure nothing's floating in while I'm working.

I try to keep using anything abrasive to a minimum and clean things as soon as I'm finished, while it's easy. It adds to the overall brewing time, but it's well worth it in the long run. Also I'm getting faster with practice, and start early in the day.
 
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