Phenolic / Plastic Taste in homebrews

Well I brewed an alt style beer that so far tastes like plastic on the finish and mouthfeel. ( to me... other non beer nerds think I'm nuts but its there strong)

Ive had this happen before in the past w maltier homebrews...ambers and brown ales / darker beers ..

I don't know whats going on, wondering if it was my fermentation temp issue or if the beer is just green... heres the details..

OG: 1.053
FG: 1.008

Simple 3 malt grain bill and magnum hops..

Used a 800ml starter w stir plate and wlp001 yeast

Aerated (with a stirring wand and drill for 1 min) and pitched properly at 70*. I also use a camden tablet in my mash and strike water 1/2 and 1/2 crushed w pill crusher. I use tap water that is filtered thru a under sink filter (filtrete 3US-PF01 kit)

Moved to my basement where it fermented at 60-65*F (on carboy temp strip) ambient is around 60 in my basement for 1 week.
Moved upstairs to 68*-70* (strip temp) for 1 week (usually I let my beer sit in the primary for 3-4 weeks but not this batch)
Transferred to keg after those 2 weeks ... and put on co2 (~12psi at 38*F) for 12 days and tastes plastic still....


Wondering if it just needs more time? Or whats up?




Sidenotes:

Im at my wits end with this plastic/off flavor stuff on some batches... its driving me freaking crazy. Ive been brewing for 3 years and I want to never have this off flavor crap again.

(Recently purchased 2 temp controllers and wired them up and now have one dedicated to lager temps and one dedicated to fermenting temps... oh and one for serving temps .. also purchased a oxigination kit from NB yesterday for the future.. also purchased PH strips and want to start tinkering with PH levels and adjustments to my water ! )

I went through this. Change your source water. Try RO for a batch and it should go away

Google Chlorophenols

Water source? Tap water? Probably chlorine/chloramine. A pinch of potassium metabisulfite in your brewing liquor will remove it.

The_Bishop said:

Water source? Tap water? Probably chlorine/chloramine. A pinch of potassium metabisulfite in your brewing liquor will remove it.

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Yes filtered tap water, I used campden tabs to remove chlorine in my brew water.

I just had a thought.. I do NOT use the campden tabs when rinsing my kegs out (cleaning/sanitizing) Maybe.. could that be the source of the off flavor? I feel like my OG and FG samples do not have this flavor only after the beer is kegged and on tap.


My beer liquid lines to tap are always cleaned before new keg.. and I use the accuflex bed seal tubing cleaned with oxyclean and sanitized w starsan/undersink filtered water)

The OP says he's using Campden. That should eradicate any chance of chlorophenols from chlorinated water. It's something else!

A couple of ideas:

1) Are you fermenting in plastic buckets? Switch to glass or stainless and see if the problem goes away.

2) Could you have any contamination of rubber gaskets, spigots, soft parts and connections, anywhere in your process? Even fermentation locks? I found mold on one of my ferm lock corks one time and it had ruined a batch. Contamination can lead to these flavors.

Could be one or both of those. Good luck.

Thanks, I ferment in 6.5 gallon glass carboys.. cleaned with oxy / san with star san.
I will have to check my equipment maybe replace my racking cane too Im pretty thorough when it comes to cleaning and sanitizing though so Im at a loss here

Are you using standard PVC tubing or is it silicone? If you're using PVC when moving hot wort that could potentially be a culprit.

dmtaylor said:

The OP says he's using Campden. That should eradicate any chance of chlorophenols from chlorinated water. It's something else!

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Not necessarily. It could still be chloramine, as an amount of Campden tablets can only treat a certain amount of chloramine/chlorine.

The standard Campden tablet regimen is 1/4 tablet per 5 gallons, 1 tablet per 20 gallons. Per AJ's sticky in the brew science section, this is able to remove up to 3mg/L of free chlorine equivalent from the source water. Typical chloramine/chlorine treatment levels by municipal supplies aim for 2mg/L. However, it's common in springtime for them to up the chlorine/chloramine levels to flush the system, and for them to up the amounts if there's a specific problem. This can mean more chlorine/chloramine than the normal Campden treatment can cope with.

The OP doesn't say what his batch size is, but if it's around 10 gallons with roughly 8 gallons of strike and 8 gallons of sparge water, the 1/2 Campden tablet dosage in each is only around enough to remove about 3.5 mg/L of chloramine.

However, if this is every dark batch, I'd wonder about sparge water acidification and astringency.

Rhetorik said:

Are you using standard PVC tubing or is it silicone? If you're using PVC when moving hot wort that could potentially be a culprit.

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Silicone for all wort transfer hot or cold

dyqik said:

Not necessarily. It could still be chloramine, as an amount of Campden tablets can only treat a certain amount of chloramine/chlorine.

The standard Campden tablet regimen is 1/4 tablet per 5 gallons, 1 tablet per 20 gallons. Per AJ's sticky in the brew science section, this is able to remove up to 3mg/L of free chlorine equivalent from the source water. Typical chloramine/chlorine treatment levels by municipal supplies aim for 2mg/L. However, it's common in springtime for them to up the chlorine/chloramine levels to flush the system, and for them to up the amounts if there's a specific problem. This can mean more chlorine/chloramine than the normal Campden treatment can cope with.

The OP doesn't say what his batch size is, but if it's around 10 gallons with roughly 8 gallons of strike and 8 gallons of sparge water, the 1/2 Campden tablet dosage in each is only around enough to remove about 3.5 mg/L of chloramine.

However, if this is every dark batch, I'd wonder about sparge water acidification and astringency.

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You may be right. You made a lot of really good points here. The "spring cleaning" treatment nailed me once, which is actually why I started using Campden in the first place. Before that, I had used just untreated tap water for years with no problems at all. Then all of a sudden one spring I got chlorophenol. One of my buddies in the local homebrew club worked at the municipal water treatment plant and told me how the extra chlorine had probably caused my issue. I've used Campden since then and never had another problem. But I suppose, in really large concentrations, for big batches, maybe a higher dose is warranted. And possibility of astringency... yeah. Good points.

Thanks for all the comments guys

I tried the beer again last night and i think.. the phenolic flavor has subsided quite a bit .. which is odd. maybe it just needed more time in the keg ? I carbonate over time and its been 2 full weeks on co2 now. The yeast I used was WLP001 cali ale. Usually use this yeast w my ales and sometimes get this flavor.. maybe it was just the first pint or so? Anyways.. back to the drawing board lol

Drk93TT said:

Thanks for all the comments guys

I tried the beer again last night and the phenolic flavor has subsided quite a bit .. which is odd. maybe it just needed more time in the keg ? I carbonate over time and its been 2 full weeks on co2 now. The yeast I used was WLP001 cali ale. Usually use this yeast w my ales and sometimes get this flavor.. maybe it was just the first pint or so? Anyways.. back to the drawing board lol

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Are you sure the flavor is phenolic? That one's not going to go away.

If it is phenolic it seems the first thing every homebrewer wants to do is pin the blame on an outside source, usually the water. While it could be the water, and in your case it looks like it is not, the most likely cause is an infection or fermenting at too high a temperature. Certain bacteria and wild yeast will produce phenols (not unlike some Belgian beers) and many standard strains will as well if they ferment too hot.

BigEd said:

Are you sure the flavor is phenolic? That one's not going to go away.

If it is phenolic it seems the first thing every homebrewer wants to do is pin the blame on an outside source, usually the water. While it could be the water, and in your case it looks like it is not, the most likely cause is an infection or fermenting at too high a temperature. Certain bacteria and wild yeast will produce phenols (not unlike some Belgian beers) and many standard strains will as well if they ferment too hot.

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Could have been due to high fermentation temperature. My basement sits at 64*F usually and the beer was down there for a week so It could have been fermenting at 74*F maximum temp . For a short bit.. the strip on the ferm read 65-68* at a high ( i understand this isn't 100% accurate) So its possible. Luckily for me this beer was my last fermentation without temp control as I have since upgraded to temp controlled fermentations in a fridge w a stc1000.

Bumping this thread again open to more ideas... / people checking this OCD guys thoughts out..

I have replaced my auto siphon for future batches and thoroughly cleaned (like usual tho) my silicone transfer tubing for Kegging. Ooo.. I even bought a new thing of star san (my pervious starsan bottle was ~2 yrs old so maybe it was time to go .... haha )

I will be brewing a 5 gal german pilsner this friday !

I am still wondering what could be causing my random phenolic / slick mouthfeel beers on occasion... a couple points that I am addressing hopefully? :

.....

I have been heating my sparge water to 178-180* and dumping that in the mash tun over the grains .. is this too hot? The runoff temp is nowhere near 180 so .. maybe nah

(AFAIK 168-170 is perfect..yet some sparge cold and some sparge at 180) and using 2 separate sparges..usually total sparging time for me is 30-40minutes. I batch sparge.
( Disclaimer: I know some people sparge as fast as possible and do a single sparge...I just don't do that Ive found better efficiency with "double" batch sparging... maybe 4-6% if that but still. )

.. I have found that my sparge gets stuck if I only use a single sparge with around 2 gallons left to go on the sparge ..



2- Ive thought, hmmm maybe Im over crushing grains? I have a cereal killer grain mill usually set to .35.. i just stepped it to .37 .... and the crush looks similar to "ideal" pictures (maybe a bit more crushed as I have some flour going into the mash tun) Ive seen online at .35 btw. Maybe I should try some rice hulls and try a single sparge again... maybe I'm oversparging or over crushing?
On my wlp001 ale's and my brewing process - seems like I consistently overshoot my brewhouse efficiency (hit 85% when beer smith set to 75%) and my beers tend to over attenuate. (FG usually is 1.004-1.008 on wlp001 ales) leaving a higher than wanted ABV.




Finally I don't really want to but maybe its a good idea... Im going to use RO or spring water from the store on this brew. I use a campden tab in all of my brew water.. but maybe its something else as Ive never had my tap water tested. . . I will venture into water chemistry soon.. just don't honestly believe water chemistry is my off flavor.

Thoughts?

I had this exact problem with a pumpkin pie ale I made using Safale S-04. I put it up to my tap water. After 3-5 seconds of after taste it had a nasty plastic taste. Had never been in plastic. Fermented aged and bottled in glass. Switch to RO water and used brewing salts and have not had it since. Also with this batch I hit all my targets almost perfect. Mash temp ferm temp efficiency og and fg. Only thing I can think of that did it was the tap water.

I don't think it's your crush now that I read your above post. Crush till your scared. I set my milk to .30ish. Lots of flour. If it doesn't get stuck it's not over crushed. Yooper gave me that advice.

Izzie1701 said:

I don't think it's your crush now that I read your above post. Crush till your scared. I set my milk to .30ish. Lots of flour. If it doesn't get stuck it's not over crushed. Yooper gave me that advice.

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Current setting it would get stuck (even with just 8lb 2-row and a lb of c60) with around 2 gallons to go on the single batch sparge.. thats why I starting doing double batch spares and splitting the water in half.. (3 gal and 3 gal instead of all 6 at once)

I have never tried conditioning the malt though

I also ordered a water testing kit (42$..) from ward labs and will begin tinkering with my water on future batches.

Izzie1701 said:

I had this exact problem with a pumpkin pie ale I made using Safale S-04. I put it up to my tap water. After 3-5 seconds of after taste it had a nasty plastic taste. Had never been in plastic. Fermented aged and bottled in glass. Switch to RO water and used brewing salts and have not had it since. Also with this batch I hit all my targets almost perfect. Mash temp ferm temp efficiency og and fg. Only thing I can think of that did it was the tap water.

Click to expand...

This is what my next batch will be for Friday Going to buy 10 gallons of RO water and add some salts.. Im thinking small amounts of calcium chloride, epsom and a sprinkle of campden . Excited to see the results. Going to condition my grains too... maybe throw in a handful of rice hulls to try to do a single batch sparge. . .

Ive had 2 days off sick w sinus problems and way to much time to research and read the forum/books I have and Kai's webpages......

You could be suffering from a combination of issues. First, it sounds like an infection. You also mention a slick mouthfeel, which indicates diacytel. There is a precursor(pediococus) for diacetyl in the wort as well that can manifest as an infection and the slick mouthfeel. With all the responses regarding sanitation, you have obviously addressed that, or will. I would also suggest changing your water. You can get 2.5 gallon bottles of spring/filtered water at the grocery store. Try that and see what happens. One more thing.....When you fill your vessels with the water, how fast are you filling them? For the filters to really do their job, you need a really slow flow rate. Think 2 - 3 minutes per gallon.

planetscott said:

You could be suffering from a combination of issues. First, it sounds like an infection. You also mention a slick mouthfeel, which indicates diacytel. There is a precursor(pediococus) for diacetyl in the wort as well that can manifest as an infection and the slick mouthfeel. With all the responses regarding sanitation, you have obviously addressed that, or will. I would also suggest changing your water. You can get 2.5 gallon bottles of spring/filtered water at the grocery store. Try that and see what happens. One more thing.....When you fill your vessels with the water, how fast are you filling them? For the filters to really do their job, you need a really slow flow rate. Think 2 - 3 minutes per gallon.

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Thank you for your reply!

- About the speed of water from the tap.... I now know for future batches to run the tap SLOWLY w my setup! I admit I didn't know that and would run it full blast thru my under sink filter. The plastic-y batch is question was run full blast from the tap / under sink filter.

- Yes I just returned from the store with 10 gallons of RO water from walmart ($15.00 at 1$ for the container and .37 for the liquid per gal) for my next brew day.

- The particular batch that this thread is about was a dosseldorf style with WLP001. I usually go at least 3 weeks before Kegging .. this beer I went 2 weeks and right to the keg.. feel like I rushed the yeast and maybe they didn't clean up enough..

Why the campden tablet in RO/spring water? I'm a big fan of not adding chemicals if need not. I would use a water calc software and follow that. Your starting water will be all zeros to start so just add as need be. Concentrate on hitting your mash Ph and that will tell you what brewing salts to add. But I wouldn't add the campden tablet.

Izzie1701 said:

Why the campden tablet in RO/spring water? I'm a big fan of not adding chemicals if need not. I would use a water calc software and follow that. Your starting water will be all zeros to start so just add as need be. Concentrate on hitting your mash Ph and that will tell you what brewing salts to add. But I wouldn't add the campden tablet.

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I asked myself the same question on the campden... I figure I don't need it but it won't hurt to sprinkle some in? OCD I guess. . .

Yep I have been playing around with ez water calculator on my computer.

I was planning on using a couple ml of lactic acid to get the mash dialed in to the RO water ... and then adjust w calcium chloride and epsom salt to get a balanced profile / slightly malt biased profile

I guess it won't hurt. I just don't like adding sulfites. I know a few people that have sulfites intolerances so I try and stay away from them. No real reason for it with RO water.

Drk93TT said:

Yes filtered tap water, I used campden tabs to remove chlorine in my brew water.

I just had a thought.. I do NOT use the campden tabs when rinsing my kegs out (cleaning/sanitizing) Maybe.. could that be the source of the off flavor? I feel like my OG and FG samples do not have this flavor only after the beer is kegged and on tap.


My beer liquid lines to tap are always cleaned before new keg.. and I use the accuflex bed seal tubing cleaned with oxyclean and sanitized w starsan/undersink filtered water)

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Had the same plastic flavor that drove me nuts! I was sanitizing my bottles with Star San made with unfiltered tap water. I'd dunk a bottle, pour it out, and fill the bottle wet. Don't fear the foam! Right? Only it wasn't the foam, it was the chlorine in the water. A Campden tablet and filtered water for Star San and I've not had the problem since! I hope it's this simple for you too. Good luck!

Kwitty said:

Had the same plastic flavor that drove me nuts! I was sanitizing my bottles with Star San made with unfiltered tap water. I'd dunk a bottle, pour it out, and fill the bottle wet. Don't fear the foam! Right? Only it wasn't the foam, it was the chlorine in the water. A Campden tablet and filtered water for Star San and I've not had the problem since! I hope it's this simple for you too. Good luck!

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That sounds viable for sure. Yeah my last beer that Isn't ready yet... (well it could be but its a oktoberfest I brewed end of march...and currently lagering at 35*F in my garage chamber.. plan on waiting til at least July to carb and drink.... if I have the patience...) I used campden with my water to sanitize and clean the keg before filling.

Izzie1701 said:

Why the campden tablet in RO/spring water? I'm a big fan of not adding chemicals if need not. I would use a water calc software and follow that. Your starting water will be all zeros to start so just add as need be. Concentrate on hitting your mash Ph and that will tell you what brewing salts to add. But I wouldn't add the campden tablet.

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Spring water =/= RO water. Spring water is usually a big unknown.

.

The_Bishop said:

Spring water =/= RO water. Spring water is usually a big unknown.

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Sorry spring water here in Canada is almost always RO water sold as spring water from a natural source. Typically contains less than 10ppm but definitely no chlorine added and UV filtered. I assumed he was talking about bottled spring water not true from the source spring water.

Edit: and now that I look to make sure I'm not lying it also posts on the label the water mineral analysis and ppm's

Off Flavor update to this thread:

The phenolic /plastic aftertaste / flavor is gone in my pilsner with 100% RO water.

I also brewed a hefe that has a noticeable (to me) phenol/spiciness on the mouthfeel a bit and finish.. but then again that was using wlp300 at 68* for 12 days and 2 days at 71* with a submerged probe in ferm chamber. that beer was using my tap water and some salt adjustments. Odd. Tasted fine a few days ago but now today has a slight hint of it at day 13 on 12psi (carb over time) Maybe its my perlick 630 faucet or the bevlex ultra tubing.. idk. Still a mystery. One day Ill solve it.

Ok, so quick poll...

What kind of valve are you guys using for your brew kettle to fermenter? I'm using just a typical SS ball valve that threads onto boil kettle. I clean it with PBW and a brush. Im still having some off flavor Im trying to pinpoint...

Drk93TT said:

This is what my next batch will be for Friday Going to buy 10 gallons of RO water and add some salts.. Im thinking small amounts of calcium chloride, epsom and a sprinkle of campden . Excited to see the results. Going to condition my grains too... maybe throw in a handful of rice hulls to try to do a single batch sparge. . .

Ive had 2 days off sick w sinus problems and way to much time to research and read the forum/books I have and Kai's webpages......

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Why Epsom salts? You don't need the magnesium. Did you mean gypsum?

Drk93TT said:

Ok, so quick poll...

What kind of valve are you guys using for your brew kettle to fermenter? I'm using just a typical SS ball valve that threads onto boil kettle. I clean it with PBW and a brush. Im still having some off flavor Im trying to pinpoint...

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Standard 3 piece ball valve - that gets pretty toasty through the course of a boil. Not hot enough to melt the vinyl handle cover, but still, you don't want to test the bare metal

I've never had an evidently infected batch but if I did I'd be looking somewhere else - unless I was running an e-rig...

Cheers!

Check this out http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/. And then take apart and check your ball valve.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

Check this out http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/. And then take apart and check your ball valve.

Brew on

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You know whats awesome? I disassembled my ball valve AND thermometer above it (both weldless pass thru style w o rings on the inside and securing nut on inside) this morning before reading this and it had crud in it.. not a ton.. but there was crud in there. Took it all apart and scrubbed/soaked in PBW... this threads journey continues ...

Wish I took pics of the gunk before and after. was maybe 1/4 as dirty as the dudes valve in that link you posted. But still.. gunk is gunk. My 2 piece ball valve has now been retired... I sat there for 20 minutes trying to unscrew the thing in a vice.. it is stuck. No unthreading. So I just bought a brand new 3 piece ball valve on amazon... will be here tomorrow!! And Im going to clean it and its thermometer probe above it after every brew day from now Id imagine.

Drk93TT said:

You know whats awesome? I disassembled my ball valve AND thermometer above it (both weldless pass thru style w o rings on the inside and securing nut on inside) this morning before reading this and it had crud in it.. not a ton.. but there was crud in there. Took it all apart and scrubbed/soaked in PBW... this threads journey continues ...

Wish I took pics of the gunk before and after. was maybe 1/4 as dirty as the dudes valve in that link you posted. But still.. gunk is gunk. My 2 piece ball valve has now been retired... I sat there for 20 minutes trying to unscrew the thing in a vice.. it is stuck. No unthreading. So I just bought a brand new 3 piece ball valve on amazon... will be here tomorrow!! And Im going to clean it and its thermometer probe above it after every brew day from now Id imagine.

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did you ever figure out the issue? I have a similar problem. I use RO water but from the sounds of it, the filters in the RO system don’t fully get rid of Chloramine. So I’ll use campden next time. I usually only notice this taste in a heavily hopped beer. And usually only get that flavor after the dry hop. When I taste it before dry hopping and after fermentation it’s pleasant tasting. I don’t think it’s hop burn because after a month that taste is still there. I didn’t perceive it as plastic until I entered it into a competition and that’s what they perceived. I just thought it was a harsh bitterness. And I don’t think it’s a sanitization issue because I take everything apart every brew and clean right away.

Mousetrapbrewery said:

did you ever figure out the issue? I have a similar problem. I use RO water but from the sounds of it, the filters in the RO system don’t fully get rid of Chloramine. So I’ll use campden next time. I usually only notice this taste in a heavily hopped beer. And usually only get that flavor after the dry hop. When I taste it before dry hopping and after fermentation it’s pleasant tasting. I don’t think it’s hop burn because after a month that taste is still there. I didn’t perceive it as plastic until I entered it into a competition and that’s what they perceived. I just thought it was a harsh bitterness. And I don’t think it’s a sanitization issue because I take everything apart every brew and clean right away.

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Came here because I'm having the same issue. Tap water, campden… trying RO next butit’s been a frustrating journey. Would be interested to hear your solution, assuming you didn’t give up

Rfox2014 said:

Came here because I'm having the same issue. Tap water, campden… trying RO next butit’s been a frustrating journey. Would be interested to hear your solution, assuming you didn’t give up

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I switched to campden tablets when I brew with RO and noticed a difference. So I would suggest still doing that. But I honestly think my plastic issue was from the galaxy. I probably used too much of it honestly.