American Lager 2013 NHC Bronze Medal Winner: Classic American Pilsner

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pjj2ba

Look under the recliner
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jul 25, 2006
Messages
3,372
Reaction score
235
Location
State College
Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
wlp 833 (bock)
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter
slurry
Batch Size (Gallons)
5
Original Gravity
1.063
Final Gravity
1.012
Boiling Time (Minutes)
90
IBU
36.2
Color
4.4
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
14
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
7
Additional Fermentation
42 days of lagering
Tasting Notes
3rd place pilsner 2013 NHC final round
Uncle Bob's Old Timey Lager

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
69.7% 5.75 lbs. Pilsner Canada 1.037 2
18.2% 1.50 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1
6.1% 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
6.1% 0.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2

* caution * grain weights are based on 92% efficiency. Go by percentages and adjust for your efficiency

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Magnum Whole 20.50 31.1 First WH
18.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 3.4 15 min.
14.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 1.6 5 min.

protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

Pitched and fermented at 50 F
 
Congratulations! Huzzah! And thanks for sharing the recipe. I've changed the title of your recipe thread to indicate that it medaled at the NHC.

huzzah-t-shirt-vintage-t-shirt-review-cotton-factory-cotton-factory-1-60393.gif
 
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Magnum Whole 20.50 31.1 First WH
18.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 3.4 15 min.
14.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 1.6 5 min.

I loooove Crystal hops in a pilsner!
 
Congrats with winning a medal!
I didn't realize it was you. Darn nyms...

And thanks for the recipe.
 
I will have to try this.... but I am having trouble translating the hop additions...


Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight-------Type-------------IBU -----?????------Time
10.00 g--------Magnum Whole---20.50-----31.1-------First WH
18.00 g--------Crystal Whole------4.60------3.4-------15 min.
14.00 g--------Crystal Whole------4.60------1.6--------5 min.
 
I will have to try this.... but I am having trouble translating the hop additions...


Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight-------Type-------------IBU -----?????------Time
10.00 g--------Magnum Whole---20.50-----31.1-------First WH
18.00 g--------Crystal Whole------4.60------3.4-------15 min.
14.00 g--------Crystal Whole------4.60------1.6--------5 min.

Using Magnum Whole as an example, 20.5 is the alpha acid content and 31.1 is the IBUs.
 
Watch the grain bill. My efficiency is through the roof (92-95%) so go by the percentages

Yup, the red ????? is the IBU's per hop addition
 
Uncle Bob's Old Timey Lager

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
69.7% 5.75 lbs. Pilsner Canada 1.037 2
18.2% 1.50 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1
6.1% 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
6.1% 0.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2

* caution * grain weights are based on 92% efficiency. Go by percentages and adjust for your efficiency

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Magnum Whole 20.50 31.1 First WH
18.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 3.4 15 min.
14.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 1.6 5 min.

protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

Pitched and fermented at 50 F

It was great seeing you win that medal at Nationals! My voice was pretty shot most the next week from shouting after you won:) No doubt you brew some great beers!
 
Thanks for posting this. It looks like a very nice recipe. I will be giving it a try.
 
Watch the grain bill. My efficiency is through the roof (92-95%) so go by the percentages

Yup, the red ????? is the IBU's per hop addition

I could search your previous posts for clues but I'm lazy. Any tips on how you achieve such high efficiency?
 
I could search your previous posts for clues but I'm lazy. Any tips on how you achieve such high efficiency?

Several reasons:

I mill quite finely - you need a good mash filter! I have a copper manifold with slots cut in it.
I carefully adjust my water pH for maximal enzyme activity. I treat my water to reduce the residual alkalinity (buffering capacity) and adjust the pH to ~5.4 - 5.5 with phosphoric acid - both mash water and sparge water

I mash a bit on the thin side (~1.75 quarts/lb). This gives me enough volume that I can get a nice runoff of the mash before adding any sparge water. After the mash is complete, I vorlauf and drain. Then I add 2.5 gal of sparge water, mix, vorlauf and drain. I add the final 2.5 gal, mix, vorlauf, and then drain. This last time is by gravity, the previous two drainings I use a pump to speed up the process.


Those three are the biggies. Below are some things that might make a little difference.

I use a protein rest - caution though, I use mainly pilsner malt. The endosperm is a martix of protein and starch. I believe doing a p-rest helps to break down the matrix (it is partially broken down during the malting process) which makes the starch more available to the enzymes

I also do step mashes. I think the benefit here is that I do the occasional mix of the mash as I heat
 
Several reasons:

I mill quite finely - you need a good mash filter! I have a copper manifold with slots cut in it.
I carefully adjust my water pH for maximal enzyme activity. I treat my water to reduce the residual alkalinity (buffering capacity) and adjust the pH to ~5.4 - 5.5 with phosphoric acid - both mash water and sparge water

I mash a bit on the thin side (~1.75 quarts/lb). This gives me enough volume that I can get a nice runoff of the mash before adding any sparge water. After the mash is complete, I vorlauf and drain. Then I add 2.5 gal of sparge water, mix, vorlauf and drain. I add the final 2.5 gal, mix, vorlauf, and then drain. This last time is by gravity, the previous two drainings I use a pump to speed up the process.


Those three are the biggies. Below are some things that might make a little difference.

I use a protein rest - caution though, I use mainly pilsner malt. The endosperm is a martix of protein and starch. I believe doing a p-rest helps to break down the matrix (it is partially broken down during the malting process) which makes the starch more available to the enzymes

I also do step mashes. I think the benefit here is that I do the occasional mix of the mash as I heat
Thanks very much for filling in the details. I think at least initially I will start paying more attention to mash and sparge water pH as a new grain mill or new mash tun are not in the cards.
 
Phil,

Got my PH meter and my water is at a 6.2 ph. Where do you buy your Phosphoric acid? I want to adjust the sparge water down to a 5.5 next brew and see if that helps me boost my effienceny some more I thought I was doing good at around 85% your getting great numbers! You used 8.5 lbs in the recipe, it would take me 9.5 lbs to get the same gravity as what your getting.
 
Phil,

Got my PH meter and my water is at a 6.2 ph. Where do you buy your Phosphoric acid? I want to adjust the sparge water down to a 5.5 next brew and see if that helps me boost my effienceny some more I thought I was doing good at around 85% your getting great numbers! You used 8.5 lbs in the recipe, it would take me 9.5 lbs to get the same gravity as what your getting.
so you'll buy a $3 bottle of acid so you can save $1 on grain? :cross:
 
Congrats on your medal, that's a really huge accomplishment. I had a couple of questions I'm hoping you can provide your thoughts on.

1) What kind of water profile do you favor for your CAP?

2) Your recipe says Canadian Pilsner malt. Is this the Canada Malting Superior Pils malt?

I just made a CAP that I thought was really solid with 6-row and polenta using Jeff Renner's pressure cooker cereal mash method, but I'm not yet sure if I'm liking the 6-row base. My water was pretty balanced, but I'm wondering if going with a little higher sulfate/chloride ratio, which would help accentuate the bitterness a bit more, is appropriate in this style, like in a German Pils.


pjj2ba said:
Uncle Bob's Old Timey Lager

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
69.7% 5.75 lbs. Pilsner Canada 1.037 2
18.2% 1.50 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1
6.1% 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
6.1% 0.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2

* caution * grain weights are based on 92% efficiency. Go by percentages and adjust for your efficiency

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Magnum Whole 20.50 31.1 First WH
18.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 3.4 15 min.
14.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 1.6 5 min.

protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

Pitched and fermented at 50 F
 
I think it can be bought fairly cheap. I brew 24 gal batchs and would save 5 lbs of grain. Check out this old discussion from here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/where-do-i-get-85-food-grade-phosphoric-acid-266035/

A lot of homebrew stores carry a 10% solution. That lasts me about 15-20 batches (5 gal). After going though one bottle of that, I bought a 1 L bottle of 85% from DudaDiesel. I make a 10% solution from that to use. Using the 85% straight makes it easy to overshoot your target pH.
 
Congrats on your medal, that's a really huge accomplishment. I had a couple of questions I'm hoping you can provide your thoughts on.

1) What kind of water profile do you favor for your CAP?

2) Your recipe says Canadian Pilsner malt. Is this the Canada Malting Superior Pils malt?

I just made a CAP that I thought was really solid with 6-row and polenta using Jeff Renner's pressure cooker cereal mash method, but I'm not yet sure if I'm liking the 6-row base. My water was pretty balanced, but I'm wondering if going with a little higher sulfate/chloride ratio, which would help accentuate the bitterness a bit more, is appropriate in this style, like in a German Pils.

Here is my water profile. I treat with pickling lime to reduce the alkalinity
pre and post water results

Yes, Superior pils. I really like this malt for adjunct beers. It is a little richer/sweeter than other pils malt I use. I find it helps the beer from being too thin, particularly in adjunct beers. It is also great for Oktoberfests and other richer/heavier lagers (and ales!) I use a continental pils malt for continental pils where I want more crispness.

I used to use a little 6-row to help with conversion, but found I didn't need it for that so have since dropped it
 
Awesome, I think I'm going to go with the Superior Pils malt for my next version. I see you also use the 833 Bock yeast. I made a German Pils with it once that I thought didn't really nail the style, but it seems to work well in a CAP. Your water looks similar to what I used. I might hold off on changing it, don't want to adjust too many variables at once.
 
A lot of homebrew stores carry a 10% solution. That lasts me about 15-20 batches (5 gal). After going though one bottle of that, I bought a 1 L bottle of 85% from DudaDiesel. I make a 10% solution from that to use. Using the 85% straight makes it easy to overshoot your target pH.

Dumb question I'm sure but what do you use to dilute the 85% down to 10%? Tap water? I see amazon has a 950ml bottle of the 85% food grade concentration for $25 which might be a lifetime supply for me.

When adding the 10% solution do you use something that delivers very small amounts like an eyedropper to add it to your mash and sparge water or are the amounts larger, like a teaspoon or more?
 
Thanks for sharing your recipe! Congrats on winning!
I have a question about the hops, what would be the quantities if I were to use pellets, in case I cannot fine them whole?

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Magnum Whole 20.50 31.1 First WH
18.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 3.4 15 min.
14.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 1.6 5 min.

Thanks in advance!
 
Awesome, I think I'm going to go with the Superior Pils malt for my next version. I see you also use the 833 Bock yeast. I made a German Pils with it once that I thought didn't really nail the style, but it seems to work well in a CAP. Your water looks similar to what I used. I might hold off on changing it, don't want to adjust too many variables at once.

Yeah, I wouldn't use 833 for a pils. It is great for O'fests, bocks - and American adjunct lagers where it helps to offset the extra lightness due to the adjuncts.

Dumb question I'm sure but what do you use to dilute the 85% down to 10%? Tap water? I see amazon has a 950ml bottle of the 85% food grade concentration for $25 which might be a lifetime supply for me.

When adding the 10% solution do you use something that delivers very small amounts like an eyedropper to add it to your mash and sparge water or are the amounts larger, like a teaspoon or more?

I dilute with tap water. I have disposable 1 piece eyedroppers (soft plastic) that I use - and reuse. They will hold up to 2 ml per load, but a typical suck up is about 1 ml. I use ~ 10 ml total.

Thanks for sharing your recipe! Congrats on winning!
I have a question about the hops, what would be the quantities if I were to use pellets, in case I cannot fine them whole?

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Magnum Whole 20.50 31.1 First WH
18.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 3.4 15 min.
14.00 g. Crystal Whole 4.60 1.6 5 min.

Thanks in advance!

Just pay attention to the bolded IBU values. Most of the IBU calculators will calculate the differences for whole vs pellets. In reality, just the FWH addition. I don't pay attention to the IBU's from the 15' and 5' additions (for lagers). Those amount are chosen based on how much flavor and aroma I want
 
I'm intrigued at your use of Aromatic Malt. I was planning on layering in some Light Munich, but that's like a 7L malt vs 20L-ish for Aromatic. How apparent is it at 6%? Clearly it must work pretty well as your medal suggests!
 
I like aromatic malt. I use it to boost malty flavors. Munich would be fine. The flavor does not stand out, I don't want it to. I think flavors that stand out are a detraction in this style. I think balance is very important, more so than in many other styles.
 
I would like to get the OP's opinion on the value of mashing using various rests versus doing just a simple infusion and possibly a mashout. How much of a difference in the final product do you feel your approach gives you? Just an estimate like no difference, a little, a lot, massive, it's everything is what I am respectfully asking for. It is Friday afternoon, and I've had a couple of my own as I type this and I hope I don't sound too pushy with my request.

Is your mashing schedule dependent on the type of grains used?

Your recipe calls for:
protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

Given your outstanding results reflected here and in the PU competition, clearly you are doing many things right with regards to brewing lagers. I currently mash in a picnic cooler where various rests at different temps are a bit harder to achieve, however, I'm in the process of building a brand new semi-Brutus brew structure and if adding a heatable mash tun is what I need to get the kind of results you are able to achieve, well so be it.
 
I would like to get the OP's opinion on the value of mashing using various rests versus doing just a simple infusion and possibly a mashout. How much of a difference in the final product do you feel your approach gives you? Just an estimate like no difference, a little, a lot, massive, it's everything is what I am respectfully asking for. It is Friday afternoon, and I've had a couple of my own as I type this and I hope I don't sound too pushy with my request.

Is your mashing schedule dependent on the type of grains used?

Well obviously I think it makes a difference or i wouldn't do it :cross: That being said, The difference is not large, BUT I think it pushes it up a notch from being just a very good beer, to one that is fantastic.

I think the step mashes also help to improve the efficiency, although I couldn't really say what difference that makes in the end product.

I've recently switched to mostly pils as a base malt (as in no pale malt) so I always use these steps. I do not recommend a protein rest with pale malt. It never seemed to do for me what it does with pils malt. I also wonder about the protein rest when I have lots of vienna, or particularly munich malts. One of these day I'll grind them separate and wait to add the munich until after the p-rest (in a munich heavy recipe).

Your recipe calls for:
protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

I ALWAYS do these rests BUT depending on style, I vary the times at each temp (except p-rest). If I want more body, I shorten the time at 147 and increase the time at 160. I like the control on the body that it gives me. For a pils, I can create a highly fermentable wort at 147 F, but by having a rest at 160, just before conversion is complete, I can get some larger dextrins that help to keep the beer from being too thin. Conversely, for a rich beer, the 147 rest gives me some easily fermented sugars which keeps the body from being too heavy. These times work for me, and keep in mind the ramp times can vary form one persons rig to another so the rest times may need to be shorter or longer depending on how fast you can ramp
 
I am thinking about trying this as my first lager, can you tell me what yeast you used and your ferment schedule? I was thinking 2-3 weeks around 50f then racking to 34-36f for 6-8 weeks. Is that appropriate?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Home Brew mobile app

Edit: Sorry I only saw the recipe from my phone and it didn't include the yeast and fermenting information.
 
protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

I am looking to brew this for a Labor day party. I know, that's a long ways away, but I'm hoping to win some admiration from the friends, and figured 7 months in the keg/bottle will only help.

I have a mash question. Do I need to do these steps in a kettle so I can raise/hold the temps with my flame? We usually use a cooler mash tun and I can't fathom an easy way to do this process in that without adding more water. This seems similar to the method I planned on using for a Light Lager when we make that. Am I thinking correctly?

And congrats on the Medal, I can only imagine how big my head will swell if that ever happens for our efforts.
 
I am looking to brew this for a Labor day party. I know, that's a long ways away, but I'm hoping to win some admiration from the friends, and figured 7 months in the keg/bottle will only help.

I have a mash question. Do I need to do these steps in a kettle so I can raise/hold the temps with my flame? We usually use a cooler mash tun and I can't fathom an easy way to do this process in that without adding more water. This seems similar to the method I planned on using for a Light Lager when we make that. Am I thinking correctly?

And congrats on the Medal, I can only imagine how big my head will swell if that ever happens for our efforts.

I would wait to brew a lager for a Labor day party - if you can maintain fermentation temps in early Summer. If not, brew it now. While a good lager will keep for a while, like IPAs, they are best fresh. I target optimal drinking of a standard larger at 10 - 14 weeks - that is when it is the best (assuming everything went properly). they can still be good after that for a month or two, but they really are best fresh.
 
Altimate, I am planning on doing a decoction mash (which will be my first attempt at) for this over the weekend to achieve the temperatures. I also use a cooler and am still working out how to do the sparge as I typically batch sparge.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Home Brew mobile app
 
This is what I had in mind, after watching some youtube. Maybe the group can critique my thoughts.

I planned on taking the initial water & grains up to the 122 F (in the cooler) and wait the 20 minutes, then I would drain 75% of the liquid, put it back in the kettle and raise the temp to achieve the 147 F and add it back to the cooler for the second rest. Repeating this process once more for the 160 F. I planned on draining that and doing a separate sparge for the last 168 F step.

If anyone wants to help improve on this step I am all ears.
 
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