Natural gas burner - need regulator?

Hey. I'm planning on purchasing one of the Natural Gas convertible Hurricane burners from Williams Brewing. I am going to purchase both the NG and propane valves, so that I can run the burner of of either. I will be ordering a propane regulator/hose combo either from them, or locally.

Burner: http://www.williamsbrewing.com/HURRICANE-LOW-PRESSURE-BURNER-NO-STAND-P2677.aspx

My question is, do I need to purchase a regulator for the burner if I'm using natural gas? I've searched here on HBT, but the few threads I've found seem very inconclusive as to whether or not they're actually needed. I would rather be safe than sorry, and since I'm hoping to be able to brew both on my back deck and in my basement (under an exterior ducted vent hood, obviously), I would like to do this right the first time.

I found this regulator on grainger.com:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/MAXITROL-Gas-Pressure-Regulator-4E224

It's fairly inexpensive, and seems to deliver exactly what I would need (11" wc pressure at the burner). I would mount this regulator on the brew stand close to my burner, and then use a flexible gas line to connect from the regulator to the house supply, either on the deck or in the basement.

What do you guys think about this?

"Max. Inlet Pressure (PSI) 2 For LP Gas, 5 For Natural Gas"

I don't think that regulator would work when you're hooked up to an LP cylinder.

You don't need a regulator when running off a residential natural gas hook-up. There's already a regulator at the entry point. You would need a regulator that provides 11" WC (~0.4 psi) when running on propane, but the reg you're looking at isn't it...

Cheers!

So I can just plumb the burners straight into the natural gas pipes, with maybe a ball valve for crude adjustments and to be able to shut off the flow if I need to?

BeardedIdiot said:

So I can just plumb the burners straight into the natural gas pipes, with maybe a ball valve for crude adjustments and to be able to shut off the flow if I need to?

Click to expand...

Yep, I used this conversion valve on a 6" burner from agrisupply. It's very adjustable and cheaper than most needle valves.

BeardedIdiot said:

So I can just plumb the burners straight into the natural gas pipes, with maybe a ball valve for crude adjustments and to be able to shut off the flow if I need to?

Click to expand...

A needle valve provides pretty decent fine adjustment vs a ball valve. What many do is locate the needle valve right at the burner orifice, and place a ball valve up stream. That lets you tune the needle valve to your typical flame setting, and use the ball valve to turn the gas on and off and leave the needle valve set.

That will work when you're using natural gas. When you're going to use propane, you're still going to need a regulator to drop your propane source down to 11" WC...

Cheers!

Ok, thanks guys. Sounds like I can get the burner setup for cheaper (and easier setup) than I was thinking.

Hopefully I'll be able to pull the trigger on a setup soon.

I'm a gas fitter/inspector here in Manitoba and when I hear about people hooking up to natural gas burners on their own it sometimes scares me...

For starters you need to ensure the pipe supplying the burner can provide enough btu's for it to operate correctly as well as the whole piping system to be sized to handle the full load of all gas equipment running simultaneously.

From there you need to find out what pressure your local utility provides your natural gas pressure within your residence. This will determine if regulators are required for the burner to operate correctly.

Also, depending on the area and location you're operating the burner, combustion air may be required as well as make up air if you're ventilating air outside.

Stay clear from combustible material as well as ensure your flame does not impinge on your kettle as it will create massive amounts of carbon monoxide and you won't be back to tell us your brewing tales. This applies for both natural gas and propane.

I could spout off about permits and insurance but if you're on here looking to DIY then you don't care about this and if your house burns down due to your burner well... you're SOL for insurance money.

So if anyone has questions on Natural Gas and installing it send me a message and I'll do my best to help you out!

You can find your regulated pressure by attaching a homemade manometer to your outlet. 99% chance you will see about 7" of water and that will not require further regulation. I think higher intermediate pressures are found in commercial buildings where runs to appliances and points of use are far away. The lower the pressure, the larger the trunk and branches need to be.

Hockeyman: I appreciate your input, and while I do plan to do this DIY, i'm not exactly starting from scratch. I do plan on finding out the incoming pressure for my NG line before doing anything.

However, there is already a gas line run to the back deck, designed to run a natural gas grill off of. All I need is to get a ball valve connector to add on the end and I'm rocking.

As far as brewing in the basement is concerned, The location I am planning on brewing is a corner of the basement, where there is concrete floor and concrete walls up to 8 feet. The only thing flammable nearby will be the joists over my head, and those will be blocked by the venting system I plan to install. The gas line tubs within 8 feet of this point, so supply should not be an issue.


I have worked with natural gas line before, including having the work I've done inspected and passed by a licensed plumber (checking on the gas water heater hookups) and licensed HVAC tech (checking on the gas furnace hookup).

This is not something I will undertake lightly, no matter how cavalierly I may come off online. Thank you for your concern.

The other option, besides in the basement, would be near the entrance of the garage, on a concrete floor, etc etc.

I've seen lots of hack jobs in my daily inspects so I'm not saying you're the same type, just making sure you're aware...

Now from your reply, gas supply may be an issue depending on the size of the pipe and how many of the 60K burners you're going to use. Say at most you will have 3 burners at 60K each totaling 180K... If the pipe you're planning on tying into is 1/2" or smaller you will have pressure problems as 1/2" is only good for 156K @ 10'. You'll definitely have to up the pipe size to 3/4" as it is good for 180K @ 30' or go up to 1" if the pipe run is going to be greater than 30' and less than 90'. At the stand you and run 1/2" after you tie in the first burner and then 3/8" to the last. Having a proper sized pipe system will ensure you don't have issues with pressure to your burners.

You also mentioned a vent hood above your stand... Having an exhaust system that exhausts more air than all the leaky windows, doors, and other building openings can allow air back in can also give you problems with negative air pressure. Meaning incoming air will come down your chimney and not allow your natural drafted gas appliances to vent to the outdoors and carbon monoxide will fill your basement and house.

What gas equipment do you currently have connected?
Have you upgraded your furnace and hot water tank to direct vent and capped your chimney? If you have, then negative pressure isn't going to play a factor.
If you haven't upgraded you need to ensure there will be enough makeup air for the air exhausted and enough combustion air for the burners to operate correctly as they are the atmospheric type. Lack of air = carbon monoxide.

I just want to make sure your brewing doesn't harm you or your family and is trouble free.

Hockeyman said:

I've seen lots of hack jobs in my daily inspects so I'm not saying you're the same type, just making sure you're aware...

Now from your reply, gas supply may be an issue depending on the size of the pipe and how many of the 60K burners you're going to use. Say at most you will have 3 burners at 60K each totaling 180K... If the pipe you're planning on tying into is 1/2" or smaller you will have pressure problems as 1/2" is only good for 156K @ 10'. You'll definitely have to up the pipe size to 3/4" as it is good for 180K @ 30' or go up to 1" if the pipe run is going to be greater than 30' and less than 90'. At the stand you and run 1/2" after you tie in the first burner and then 3/8" to the last. Having a proper sized pipe system will ensure you don't have issues with pressure to your burners.

You also mentioned a vent hood above your stand... Having an exhaust system that exhausts more air than all the leaky windows, doors, and other building openings can allow air back in can also give you problems with negative air pressure. Meaning incoming air will come down your chimney and not allow your natural drafted gas appliances to vent to the outdoors and carbon monoxide will fill your basement and house.

What gas equipment do you currently have connected?
Have you upgraded your furnace and hot water tank to direct vent and capped your chimney? If you have, then negative pressure isn't going to play a factor.
If you haven't upgraded you need to ensure there will be enough makeup air for the air exhausted and enough combustion air for the burners to operate correctly as they are the atmospheric type. Lack of air = carbon monoxide.

I just want to make sure your brewing doesn't harm you or your family and is trouble free.

Click to expand...

I actually only plan on running a single burner for now. I may eventually add more and go with a multi-pot system, but I'm just looking to get my feet wet in AG brewing with BIAB in a keggle.

I believe the incoming gas line from the meter is either 3/4" or 1". I believe it reduces down to 1/2" after the furnace, but I'm not sure about that, I'd have to check.

If I brew in the basement, I could tap into the line at any point/diameter of line. If I brew on the back deck, I will have to use the pipe already run (1/2", I believe). Brewing in the garage I could also tap in at any point, as I'll have to run line regardless.

Potential lengths of pipe runs:
basement: probably <10 feet
deck: <25 feet
garage: <30 feet

Currently I have the following gas equipment:
Dual-fuel furnace/heat pump.
It runs as a heat pump year round. It has the natural gas furnace as a backup for below 34F (I think?) exterior temperatures. So basically, the gas furnace will run very rarely, and only in the coldest part of winter.

Gas water heater.


The heat pump/furnace is brand new (installed in February when we bought the house). When it was installed, the HVAC guys changed both the furnace and water heater from chimney venting to direct venting through the wall. There is a run of less than 5 feet of venting. So negative pressure *shouldn't* be an issue with me, but if I were to brew in the basement, I would have a fan running in the doorway of the room to bring fresh air in as the burner is running.

I believe I added a CO monitor in the laundry room where the furnace/water heater are when I bought the house. If there isn't one, I will add one before I ever fire up the burner. I will also be adding a fire extinguisher wherever I decide to brew.

I do appreciate your concern and wanting to make sure I do things the right way. I definitely do NOT want to burn down my house, or get CO poisoning, or do anything else that might imperil myself or my wife. Any help you can give me in that regards would be very appreciated.

Also, about a third of the distance to the deck location would be the larger diameter pipe, and the other two thirds is the 1/2".

I'm glad negative pressure won't be an issue... I see it almost every day when people swap out their older range hoods for newer higher CFM ones and now they wonder why their CO alarm is going off! I'd just make sure you have a window open somewhere in the house when running your exhaust hood in the basement. Those burners use more btus than the typical water heater so just think of your water heater with no venting attached... Not a smart idea eh? Exhaust hood is a must with these burners.

If you're only running one burner then the 1/2" line on your deck is ok. But it will not be able to supply enough gas for more than one burner. Most residential installs have 1" pipe off the meter to the furnace then drops off from there as lower btu appliances are connected. On some new homes I've seen contractors run 3/4" and I shake my head as it will only support the furnace and no future additions. If the home owner decides to add a gas fireplace or gas stove they'll have to upgrade all the pipe to 1". Always look to the future because even though your furnace will only run on the coldest day of the year the pipe size must support everything running at once and is code...

If and when you install in your basement I'd run 3/4" If you install in your garage I'd consider going 1-1/4" as you may decide to put a unit heater in there. If you don't want a unit heater in the garage I'd then run 1" and you'll have no issues with three burners and have room for some additional equipment. As for the deck... upgrade to 3/4" if you plan on more than the one burner.

Oh yeah, the fireplace also runs off the natural gas line. I'm pretty sure the line goes 1" to the furnace, then drops to 3/4" or 1/2" to the water heater, then runs 1/2" to a T, which feeds the fireplace and the deck. I will take some actual measurements when I get home tonight and post them for reference.

Yeah, we had the CO alarm issue at our hold house. We bought new appliances when we moved in, including a new gas stove and microwave/hood vent. If we were cooking for longer than about 30 minutes, the alarm would go off. If we opened the kitchen window, the alarm never went off... What's kind of scary is the previous owner used an older gas cooktop without ANY venting whatsoever. It was just a plain cabinet above the stove!

Gas stove tops don't require an exhaust hood even by code... In Canada anyway. Most gas cooktops only use 20K with all burners on full and typically no one cooks like that and there's enough air change to not have any issues with products of combustion. Plus the flame from the burner never touches the bottom of the pots so there's no chance of flame impingement which causes CO due to the breakdown of the inner and or outer flame cone. CO is only created by lack of air (dirty burner/improperly adjusted air shutter/too high of gas pressure) and flame impingement. So when you mount your burner make sure the flame does not come in contact with the kettle.

Hockeyman said:

Gas stove tops don't require an exhaust hood even by code... In Canada anyway. Most gas cooktops only use 20K with all burners on full and typically no one cooks like that and there's enough air change to not have any issues with products of combustion. Plus the flame from the burner never touches the bottom of the pots so there's no chance of flame impingement which causes CO due to the breakdown of the inner and or outer flame cone. CO is only created by lack of air (dirty burner/improperly adjusted air shutter/too high of gas pressure) and flame impingement. So when you mount your burner make sure the flame does not come in contact with the kettle.

Click to expand...

Huh. I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure our inspector said it was code that the stove had to be exhausted in some way. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

I think our stove had either 2x 15k and 2x 10k btu burners, or 2x 10k and 2x 8k. Can't remember.

Ok, looks like I was slightly off on the supply sizes.

The supply pipe comes into the house as 1" ID. It hits a reducing T, where both outlets are 3/4" ID. One goes directly to the furnace (*This line does reduce to a 1/2" ID line before entering the furnace). The other runs to another reducing T, where both outlets are 1/2" ID. One of those goes directly to the water heater. The other heads to a third T, where both outlets stay 1/2" ID. One goes to the fireplace, and one goes through the wall to the deck.

Also, the furnace is direct vented through the wall, but the water heater exhaust is still run into the chimney. I thought they ran both to direct vent through the wall. So I could have an issue with some negative pressure there, since I will be in the same room as the water heater. I can either make sure to be bringing fresh air in with a fan through the doorway, or look into adding an air intake as well as an air vent close to the brewing station.

The easiest to tie into would be the 1/2" pipe. There are multiple shutoff valves before the two outlets on that, so it would be easy to shut off and add a T.

The next easiest spot to tie into would be right where the 1" ID pipe comes through the wall from the meter. There is a 90* fitting right inside the wall. I could just turn the gas off at the meter, vent the line, pop that 90 off, put a T in its place, and run 1" ID line either to an adjoining wall in the room, or all the way to the garage. I guess I could actually run it to the other wall and through for use on the deck if I wanted to.

The most difficult tie in would be on the 3/4" ID line, as it is very short, and already choked with a couple fittings and a shutoff valve (to shut off gas to the water heater). That is probably not a good option at this point.

I figure my best option is to either use a single burner on the deck, and be happy with it, since I won't have to alter any current gas lines, or T into the main 1" ID supply line for potential multiburner use in either the basement or the garage.

The only problem I see with tying into the 1" line, is that I would be putting a T before the line hits the furnace. Although this would probably only be an issue in the winter, when it was very cold out.

I also was contemplating bringing in a licensed tech to run the new line, as then I don't have to worry about messing with it and risk violating code or having leaks. I wonder how much they would charge to add a T and run about 10-15 feet of 1" ID line?

Tying into the 1" 90 will work but may end up being more in labor as you will have to either cut the pipe after the 90 to be able to remove it to install a tee. Then thread the cut portion of pipe and install a union and another nipple to tie the existing piping back in. Or undo all the piping from a union (if there is one) back to the 1" 90.

Another option to consider is to tee right off the meter and drill a new entry into your brew space... I would definitely consider that as it will be easier for the installer and then you won't have to mess with your existing system and the possibility of having to increase your 1" pipe to 1-1/4" to support the entire load of your furnace, water heater, fireplace, and future bbq (can't let that deck line go to waste, plus you'll never run out of natural gas like you do with propane bottles when cooking steaks!)

If you find an installer who is ok with you running all your lines from the brew space to the meter and then him/her tying in at the meter would be the cheapest alternative.

As for the negative pressure issue, the only way to alleviate it is to open a window or have a 4" hole cut in your foundation to have makeup air brought into the brew space. No fan blowing from inside the house will over come the negative pressure as the air being exhausted outside isn't being replaced fast enough through any building air leakage. So the chimney becomes the easiest conduit for air to return back into the home.

I think for now what I'm going to do is just plan to run the burner off the 1/2" line on the back deck. If I get to a point where I really want to brew in the garage or in the basement, I will probably get a hold of a plumber or HVAC guy to hook a new 1" line straight from the meter, and then see if can run all the piping to where I want it to be. That will probably be the most cost effective, and safest, route I can take. If I set up a brew station in the basement, I will use a vent hood with a return air vent to counteract the negative pressure issue.

Generally you would not need a regulator because the regulator at the meter is set for 1/2 psig or less. Some newer construction uses a 2 psig system. In this case every appliance would need to be regulated.

You can tell if you have a 2 psig system because it is run with flexible and smaller pipe.

If you are in doubt, you need to find out.

Jackjama said:

Generally you would not need a regulator because the regulator at the meter is set for 1/2 psig or less. Some newer construction uses a 2 psig system. In this case every appliance would need to be regulated.

You can tell if you have a 2 psig system because it is run with flexible and smaller pipe.

If you are in doubt, you need to find out.

Click to expand...

My house is 26 years old, and all the natural gas line is the hard black pipe typical of natural gas line installations.

If you do go all the way back to the 1" trunk, you will have to use unions because you can't thread a fitting into the middle of a run.

Also, you want to leave some backpressure on the trunk so i would reduce to 3/4 before a long run to your brew area.

Bobby_M said:

Also, you want to leave some backpressure on the trunk so i would reduce to 3/4 before a long run to your brew area.

Click to expand...

Thats not how natural gas pipe is sized... Pipe is sized according to the load. There's no need to "backpressure" as the regulator ensures a constant 7" wc and will lockup and relieve excess pressure from the vent if pressure exceeds 7" wc when the attached appliances stop using gas.

Think of the pipe as a straw and your burners are sucking gas. If you reduce the pipe too much you will not allow the burners to get enough gas. This is why gas piping needs to be sized correctly.

Agreed. I don't know what I'm talking about.

BeardedIdiot said:

My house is 26 years old, and all the natural gas line is the hard black pipe typical of natural gas line installations.

Click to expand...

STOP. If you call it "hard black pipe", this may not be a job for you. IMHO

Hockeyman said:

Thats not how natural gas pipe is sized... Pipe is sized according to the load. There's no need to "backpressure" as the regulator ensures a constant 7" wc and will lockup and relieve excess pressure from the vent if pressure exceeds 7" wc when the attached appliances stop using gas.

Think of the pipe as a straw and your burners are sucking gas. If you reduce the pipe too much you will not allow the burners to get enough gas. This is why gas piping needs to be sized correctly.

Click to expand...

Lets call this pressure drop, "use of BTU's" and the supply gas line needs to be able to feed NG to everything running without dropping pressure to anything. Think of it like a water hose with lots of sprinklers (burners) and everytime some water is used the pressure drops. Now in this case when the pressure drops on say the furnace, the flame could burn the house down. I'm not saying I know it all, and in other parts of the country it's different. But I was a pipe fitter for 13years and take great pride that I never killed anyone,, that I know of.

mikescooling said:

STOP. If you call it "hard black pipe", this may not be a job for you. IMHO

Click to expand...

I called it "hard black pipe" to differentiate from the above person asking if it was the flexible lightly colored lines found in newer houses. I've worked with this before, and never had any issues.

Considering it is black steel pipe, I don't see what the problem with calling it "hard black pipe" is?

I didn't mean to offend. I am bad about typing things and getting my message across the way I intend. The heart of what I am saying is running pipe is not hard but the rules of working with natural gas are unforgiving. I am old school in all my piping, names and know how. We called it iron (black pipe), plastic, or copper. I have been out of the trade for a few years, things have changed.

mikescooling said:

I didn't mean to offend. I am bad about typing things and getting my message across the way I intend. The heart of what I am saying is running pipe is not hard but the rules of working with natural gas are unforgiving. I am old school in all my piping, names and know how. We called it iron (black pipe), plastic, or copper. I have been out of the trade for a few years, things have changed.

Click to expand...

No problem. I am VERY careful working with natural gas. Like I said, if I decide to set up a line in the basement, I may have a licensed plumber/HVAC guy run the line for me, rather than doing it myself. Just depends on how much it costs and if I decide I want to brew in my basement or not.

With planning on doing BIAB with a single keggle/burner, the existing line on my back deck will do for now, and if I get a burner that can run on either NG or propane, I can brew on the driveway/in the mouth of the garage if I want to as well.

Up here at least, if you need a gas line run, you'll likely find it cheaper to get it done by a licensed guy that does side jobs.

You just cant switch from NG to LP with a regulator, you have to change the orifice. On low pressure LP for a 10" banjo your opening is 3/32". And natural gas is 1/8". You can change the orifice for the amount of btu's you need.

I have a single tier setup with 1 10" banjo and 2 7" banjo. I drilled the orifice to 1/8" for the 10" and it is perfect for NG. (I forget which size for thr 7" but it is the bit smaller)

I am using 1/2" black pipe attached with a brinkmann NG hose on my outside hookup for gas grills. Everything works great! No regulator and using brewtroller to controll everything.

Yeah, that's why I want the Williams brewing burner, because they sell orifices for both LP and NG to fit it. Then I could just swap out the orifice, hook up to the appropriate gas line, and it's off to the races...

BeardedIdiot said:

Yeah, that's why I want the Williams brewing burner, because they sell orifices for both LP and NG to fit it. Then I could just swap out the orifice, hook up to the appropriate gas line, and it's off to the races...

Click to expand...

BeardedIdiot and Bobafet, I am also setting up a NG burner in my basement and wanted to confirm the equipment and layout...

1) I'd like to buy the following burner as it looks to be the right size for me
http://www.bayouclassicdepot.com/618ng-10-jet-natural-gas-jet-burner.htm
2) Do I then get this NG adapter? Will it work on Bayou Classic?
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/TOPTIER-BURNER-NATURAL-GAS-ADAPTER-P2627.aspx
3) Then hose to Needle Valve
4) Needle valve to NG pipe from the house

I'm actually not doing this myself, I have a plumber doing this. But I don't know exactly what I need to go from the wall to the burner.

Thanks

With the 10 Jet burner you have to replace all 10 jets to convert from NG to propane. It is cheaper and easier to start with a BG-14 burner then just swap the single gas jet fitting for each fuel.

Hello Friend,

Are there different natural gas pressures in different areas of Canada? What is the normal pressure? Do I need a regulator for an outdoor gas heater that works at 4" w.c. if the natural gas pressure at my residence is 7" w.c.?

Hockeyman said:

I'm a gas fitter/inspector here in Manitoba and when I hear about people hooking up to natural gas burners on their own it sometimes scares me...

For starters you need to ensure the pipe supplying the burner can provide enough btu's for it to operate correctly as well as the whole piping system to be sized to handle the full load of all gas equipment running simultaneously.

From there you need to find out what pressure your local utility provides your natural gas pressure within your residence. This will determine if regulators are required for the burner to operate correctly.

Also, depending on the area and location you're operating the burner, combustion air may be required as well as make up air if you're ventilating air outside.

Stay clear from combustible material as well as ensure your flame does not impinge on your kettle as it will create massive amounts of carbon monoxide and you won't be back to tell us your brewing tales. This applies for both natural gas and propane.

I could spout off about permits and insurance but if you're on here looking to DIY then you don't care about this and if your house burns down due to your burner well... you're SOL for insurance money.

So if anyone has questions on Natural Gas and installing it send me a message and I'll do my best to help you out!

Click to expand...

lucytsai said:

Hello Friend,

Are there different natural gas pressures in different areas of Canada? What is the normal pressure? Do I need a regulator for an outdoor gas heater that works at 4" w.c. if the natural gas pressure at my residence is 7" w.c.?

Click to expand...

7" is typical through out Canada. Either call your local utility and ask what pressure your home is at or look on your bill to see what the pressure factor is for billing.

Is there a gas valve on the heater? If there is, you won't need a regulator as most gas valves are rated up to .5 psi which is 14"wc so they can run either ng or lp with only needing to change the orifice to burn either fuel.