Electric Keggle help

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psyber

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Hello everyone,

1st post on the forum, although I have been poking around for quite a while, and hope to be around a while.

Working on my first keggle and have two questions.

1) Has anyone found a way to attach a hotwater heating element to a keg without welding? A 1" NPT SS nut perhaps?

2) I plan on using this for Brewing in a bag. Is there an easy (and cheap) way to protect the bag from touching the element (I assume I wont need a true FB since I plan on boiling hops in a bag)?

Thanks in advance
 
Stainless Steel 1" Locknut. Fits Electric water heater element thread. FPT Thread will thread either way and has a inset groove that fits the stock water heater element thread gasket. Purchase a food grade silicone o-ring above.


$8.25 each

Bargain Fittings

Many ways to keep the bag away from the element i suppose...how bout just wrapping a copper wire around it so as to avoid contact w/ the bag??
 
+1 on the 1" straight thread SS nut from bargain fittings. I used that.

#1. Drill hole for element
#2. Insert element using supplied rubber seal.
#3. HAND TIGHTEN with the 1" SS nut.

Done. Really, it is that simple. Lasts a long time.
 
Excellent! Thanks for the help.

As these things normally go, as soon as started this thread I found The Pol's excellent electric HERMS thread. Haven't finished reading it but so far it has answered all of my questions. I can't wait to get started.
 
+1 on the 1" straight thread SS nut from bargain fittings. I used that.

#1. Drill hole for element
#2. Insert element using supplied rubber seal.
#3. HAND TIGHTEN with the 1" SS nut.

Done. Really, it is that simple. Lasts a long time.

With the 1" nut, do you still do the socketing with the JB-weld and the PVC slip coupling (on the outside of the kettle?) like you described in the https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bling-bling-electric-herms-conversion-93217/]BLING BLING thread?

Edit: I guess I bumped the thread with for no reason. I found this page which apparently was written by The Pol. It answered my question.
 
Hey POL if your reading this thread I got a question for you. I see that you added your ground to the thermocouple section. I am thinking of putting my water heater element in from the bottom. I was planning on running the ground line and drilling a hole through the bottom skirt of the keg to minimize and water leakeage that could occur.

There isnt realy a need to have the ground with the thermocouple right? You just need it connected to the keg in some way
 
Good student are you....

I did the same thing - and before The Pol ;) Many moons ago, I learned much about the electric way of brewing from various members on the board of green...

So, yeah, just use the SS nut. Don't over tighten. Test it overnight with water before you hook up the electrics. Then test it again. I have an electric HLT and BK that I did this way.
 
I'll hijack this thread even further.
I plan to put the water heater element in an aluminum pot. I assume the "ground" (actually neutral?) won't actually do anything just being bolted to the side of an aluminum pot. Is this okay or should I rethink and go stainless?
 
I'll hijack this thread even further.
I plan to put the water heater element in an aluminum pot. I assume the "ground" (actually neutral?) won't actually do anything just being bolted to the side of an aluminum pot. Is this okay or should I rethink and go stainless?

Both of my vessels are aluminum. I drilled a hole just below the top of the pot. I used a small SS bolt and nut to attach my ground there. The ground runs, via a dryer plug, to the ground inside my "control box" which is connected to the ground in my main panel (via a range plug and GFCI circuit). It is not the neutral, only 2 hots and a ground to the electric vessels.
 
I'll hijack this thread even further.
I plan to put the water heater element in an aluminum pot. I assume the "ground" (actually neutral?) won't actually do anything just being bolted to the side of an aluminum pot. Is this okay or should I rethink and go stainless?

You are putting a NEUTRAL on the POT? WHAT?

I dont think that is the proper way to wire this. ONLY THE GROUND can be bolted to the pot, NOT THE NEUTRAL!!!
 
Hey POL if your reading this thread I got a question for you. I see that you added your ground to the thermocouple section. I am thinking of putting my water heater element in from the bottom. I was planning on running the ground line and drilling a hole through the bottom skirt of the keg to minimize and water leakeage that could occur.

There isnt realy a need to have the ground with the thermocouple right? You just need it connected to the keg in some way

Just ground it to something, anything, doesnt matter what...
 
You are putting a NEUTRAL on the POT? WHAT?

I dont think that is the proper way to wire this. ONLY THE GROUND can be bolted to the pot, NOT THE NEUTRAL!!!

The three-wire dryer cord in that blog post doesn't have a ground connection, it has a shared neutral/ground.
dryer_outlet.jpg
 
The three-wire dryer cord in that blog post doesn't have a ground connection, it has a shared neutral/ground.
dryer_outlet.jpg

That diagram is wrong. That's a ground. No neutral. This is important - 240V can kill you. Not trying to sound like a jack-ass, but be absolutely sure about it, because 240V@20amps is not a toy.
 
+1 on what Bakins said...

This is serious stuff, you will die if you dont understand it or do it right. That plug, has a ground... they all do, EVERYTHING that you are dealing with is grounded and SHOULD be grounded.

220VAC or 240VAC has TWO hots, ONE GROUND... NO NEUTRAL.

Dont go killing yourself over a hobby.

I ran a (4) wire cord to my control panel...

(2) hots
(1) ground
(1) neutral

Because I feed 240VAC and 120VAC equipment from that one line.

If you are all 240VAC, then you will have no neutrals, just hots and a ground.
 
I second and third all comments when dealing with 240. If you're married or have any rings on your fingers, take them off before you start playing with 240. Ask any panel guy and he'll tell you stories of guys having their wedding bands fused to metal and be electrocuted. Definitely meter everything out all the way through the process. I went a step further to also check for the possibility of stray electricity in the water before I touched anything.

I do have a question for the WH element guys here. What did you do to deal with the threat of surface rust from the element itself(not the heater part but the threaded part)? I've been leak testing my single tier herms and found slight surface rust on the threaded part(because I left the water element submerged in water overnight.)
 
I second and third all comments when dealing with 240. If you're married or have any rings on your fingers, take them off before you start playing with 240. Ask any panel guy and he'll tell you stories of guys having their wedding bands fused to metal and be electrocuted. Definitely meter everything out all the way through the process. I went a step further to also check for the possibility of stray electricity in the water before I touched anything.

I do have a question for the WH element guys here. What did you do to deal with the threat of surface rust from the element itself(not the heater part but the threaded part)? I've been leak testing my single tier herms and found slight surface rust on the threaded part(because I left the water element submerged in water overnight.)


I have a little rust, before I brew, I clean it off with a wet rag so that there arent chunks hanging off... honestly, it has not been that bad, I dont do anything about it.

I also have a volt meter... DO NOT build anything like this without one. I too tested everything when I powered it up, BEFORE I touched the kettle, stand etc. If that sucker isnt reading "0"... shut 'er down.

240VAC will kill you fast. I did a writeup on here and Brewers Friend about converting to electric, I dont think I can even emphasize enough that one sillly mistake will take your life with this sort of thing. If you are confused about grounds and neutrals... step away from the outlet and get a good education on it first.
 
What did you do to deal with the threat of surface rust from the element itself(not the heater part but the threaded part)?

I usually run a couple of gallons of hot water through my whole system before I brew. That tends to knock of any obvious rust. I've heard some folks build a sacrificial anode, but I haven't bothered.

One thing I wish I'd did - and probably will - is to use a SS pot. I'm iffy about soaking aluminum in PBW for more than a few minutes and it's a pain cleaning around the element, dip tube, sight glass in the bottom of my kettle. My HLT is pretty much clean, but my BK is, admittedly, not "spotless" when I boil in it. If I had used SS, I could just soak it in PBW overnight and rinse. Most of the SS pots I've found, which are "wide" enough for an element, are usually much "wider" than taller - I like the "square-ness" of my Al pot, though. Just something to thinkk about.
 
One thing I've not yet done but will before I am running this thing under load is to put a gfi breaker in my panel directly to replace the current 40a breaker. Safety first. I too ran a 4wire lead to my control panel to get 120vac for my pumps(thanks to good feedback from this site). I'm happy to say I did a flawless job on the electrical part, now if I can get the rest of the rig done.

The Pol do you have any heaving condensation from the keggles? I wrapped my kegs in WH insulation aka reflectix and noticed quite a bit of condensation on the MLT when just letting the test water cool down. I imagine this won't be much of an issue when brewing but figured I'd ask.
 
Yes this type of system needs a GFCI breaker or inline GFCI.

The dryer outlet I installed in the house is a 4 prong outlet, there are the two hots, a neutral and a ground. This way I can ground everything and also use the neutral to power 120V stuff if I needed to.

I believe with the older 3 prong plugs some appliances would use the ground as a neutral, not the smartest thing for them to do but was apparently legal back then.
 
One thing I've not yet done but will before I am running this thing under load is to put a gfi breaker in my panel directly to replace the current 40a breaker. Safety first. I too ran a 4wire lead to my control panel to get 120vac for my pumps(thanks to good feedback from this site). I'm happy to say I did a flawless job on the electrical part, now if I can get the rest of the rig done.

The Pol do you have any heaving condensation from the keggles? I wrapped my kegs in WH insulation aka reflectix and noticed quite a bit of condensation on the MLT when just letting the test water cool down. I imagine this won't be much of an issue when brewing but figured I'd ask.

I never get any condensation. Then again, I have insulated coolers for all of my vessels, except the BK. The BK never gets cool enough to create condensation.
 
Thanks for the advice guys. Sadly, after much research, I have determined that my original plans will need some rethinking. The biggest reason for the change is that I only have access to a 50Amp range outlet which is not attached to a GFI breaker. As I live in a apartment I doubt my land lord would approve of any modifications and a 50 amp cord with in-line GFI seems like a bad idea (and super expensive).

Before I get too carried away with alternative plans what is the minimum wattage I would need to do a 5 gal boil? From what I have read so far I think I would need approximately 3.5kw. Would insulating help?

Also, has anyone considered using a grill grate as a false bottom? Maybe attached to the shafts of a pair of heat sticks?
 
Thanks for the advice guys. Sadly, after much research, I have determined that my original plans will need some rethinking. The biggest reason for the change is that I only have access to a 50Amp range outlet which is not attached to a GFI breaker. As I live in a apartment I doubt my land lord would approve of any modifications and a 50 amp cord with in-line GFI seems like a bad idea (and super expensive).

I haven't read this thread in its entirety, but why can't you use a 30 amp 240v inline GFI? What are you trying to heat, a swimming pool? :D

To address your "safety" concerns, inline GFI adapters are very common-place in the industry and considered bullet-proof...And, the inline GFI I linked to is much cheaper than a GFI breaker considering it includes 17 feet of 8 gauge wire and a plug.
 
I haven't read this thread in its entirety, but why can't you use a 30 amp 240v inline GFI? What are you trying to heat, a swimming pool? :D

To address your "safety" concerns, inline GFI adapters are very common-place in the industry and considered bullet-proof...And, the inline GFI I linked to is much cheaper than a GFI breaker considering it includes 17 feet of 8 gauge wire and a plug.

I was shooting for 50A because my only power source is a range plug, which is attached to a 50A breaker. Wouldn't a 30A cord catch on fire if, for whatever reason, more than 30A is pulled threw it (which a 50A breaker would allow)?
 
I was shooting for 50A because my only power source is a range plug, which is attached to a 50A breaker. Wouldn't a 30A cord catch on fire if, for whatever reason, more than 30A is pulled threw it (which a 50A breaker would allow)?

Yup and not only will you be kicked out you will not get your deposit back after burning down your rental. Not a good thing to do using undersized cord off your 50 amp breaker. Bigger the cord higher the price per foot big time.
I go by the dirty word on this forum by many called the NEC Code book (My Bible) for 30 years working in the trade as a elecreician I can not become a do it yourself hack. Especially with the people these days that check out how fires started in the first place after they were extinguished. You would not believe what I have seen that homeowners have preformed as Home Depot do it yourself electricians. Thank goodness I was Industrial and commercial not a residential "ding bat' wireman.
 
I was shooting for 50A because my only power source is a range plug, which is attached to a 50A breaker.

Ok, that's the critical piece of information I was missing. Good luck with the 6 gauge wire...Or, time to move! :eek:
 
I was shooting for 50A because my only power source is a range plug, which is attached to a 50A breaker. Wouldn't a 30A cord catch on fire if, for whatever reason, more than 30A is pulled threw it (which a 50A breaker would allow)?

The same risk applies to the 22 gauge cord attached to your lamp on its 15/20 amp circuit.

I'm not familiar with the cord linked, but from the discussion, it appears that it only provides ground fault protection and not a 30 amp breaker. If that is the case, an option would be to wire in an inline 30 amp breaker.

50amp plug/wire > rated box with 30amp gfci breaker > 30 amp wire to recepticle or heating element
 
The same risk applies to the 22 gauge cord attached to your lamp on its 15/20 amp circuit.

I'm not familiar with the cord linked, but from the discussion, it appears that it only provides ground fault protection and not a 30 amp breaker. If that is the case, an option would be to wire in an inline 30 amp breaker.

50amp plug/wire > rated box with 30amp gfci breaker > 30 amp wire to recepticle or heating element


Yeah, I had that thought too. However, as others on this forum have mentioned, this solution is not a good idea; but I never understood why.
 
You could build a "portable" sub-panel.

50A -> range plug + cord -> small panel box

Inside that panel box (they are cheap and you can get NEMA rated ones, or put it in a waterproof box) install a 30A GFCI breaker. The connect that to your distribution etc.

You'd even have a portable electric rig that could connect into an 30A+ electric range outlet...


BrewBeemer, please correct me if I'm wrong about this. FWIW, I did actually read the NEC (well the applicable parts of it) when I finished my basement, which included my brew rig.

To the OP, if you're at all scared about this, read more. Don't screw around with 240V until you are absolutely sure about it.
 
You could build a "portable" sub-panel.

50A -> range plug + cord -> small panel box

Inside that panel box (they are cheap and you can get NEMA rated ones, or put it in a waterproof box) install a 30A GFCI breaker. The connect that to your distribution etc.

You'd even have a portable electric rig that could connect into an 30A+ electric range outlet...


BrewBeemer, please correct me if I'm wrong about this. FWIW, I did actually read the NEC (well the applicable parts of it) when I finished my basement, which included my brew rig.

To the OP, if you're at all scared about this, read more. Don't screw around with 240V until you are absolutely sure about it.

I would do the portable subpanel but with a regular 30 amp breaker. The GFCI breakers I found were more expensive than the 30 amp GFCI cord I ended up using in my system.
 
I would do the portable subpanel but with a regular 30 amp breaker.

Wouldn't this greatly increase the risk of electrocution? That is, if current starts flowing anywhere other than back to the source (e.g. the keg), a regular breaker would not trip.

Unless one could find a 30A GFI outlet that could be installed in panel...
 
Wouldn't this greatly increase the risk of electrocution? That is, if current starts flowing anywhere other than back to the source (e.g. the keg), a regular breaker would not trip.

Unless one could find a 30A GFI outlet that could be installed in panel...

? That's why you would use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI i mentioned.
 
? That's why you would use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI i mentioned.

Is that cord a breaker as well - or just GFCI?? You need both. The OP only has a 50A circuit, but would need to protect his stuff with a 30A breaker.
 
I would do the portable subpanel but with a regular 30 amp breaker. The GFCI breakers I found were more expensive than the 30 amp GFCI cord I ended up using in my system.

Plug 30 amp portable subpanel into the 50 amp, that way you have a 30 amp breaker. Then use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI to power the brew-rig in whatever fashion you want.


http://cgi.ebay.com/30A-Ground-Fault-Interrupt-Plug-GFI-CordCable-FREE-SHIP_W0QQitemZ110302613578QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools?hash=item19ae8c504a&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|293%3A1|294%3A50

He'll take $60 Best Offer I'm told
 
Plug 30 amp portable subpanel into the 50 amp, that way you have a 30 amp breaker. Then use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI to power the brew-rig in whatever fashion you want.

Ahh, I understand what you are saying now. Makes sense.
 
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