Apple Cyser + sparkling apple cyser

I have an empty better bottle and nothing to put into it right now, so I was gonna make a batch of Edworts apfelwein. Then I thought, why not make it an apple cyser instead. THEN I thought, why not take half the batch and make a sparkling apple cyser...

So my idea is to take edworts recipe and replace the dextrose with 2 pounds of honey. Then, split the batch after fermentation and prime half for bottle carbonation, while bottling the other half still.

Does that sound like a decent enough plan? Or am I missing something?

Should work just fine for you, but you might consider upping your honey content for cyser. Ed's recipe only calls for 2lbs of added sugar in 5 gallons, most cysers add 2 to 3lbs of honey per gallon. All that added honey will most definately take longer than Ed's apfelwine, a lot longer. Either way, I'd also add yeast nutrient/energizer & DAP. Regards, GF.

Thanks GF, I appreciate the input.

Hmmm, I didn't realize it would take that much more honey.

I have 3 pounds on hand, so perhaps the 2 or 3lb honey along with 1lb of the dextrose. And what kind of final gravity I'd be expecting with that?

From using Hightests Honey spread sheet it looks like it would be around 1.072. It will take a LONG time to ferment out and not have a moderate kick (9.6 ABV)

By comparison I did a big cyser this fall with 16 lbs of honey topped off with cider to 5 gallons and it OG was 1.146. Approx ABV if it ferments dry of about 19.3%.

If I were you I would make a cyser that ferments out to about 14% ABV. Use the honey spreadsheet to get an approximate idea of how much honey you will need. http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/Honey.xls

If you need something to drink right away go with Ed's again, if you can wait a month or two before you rack off into a secondary then try the cyser. The cyser will take about a year from start to bottle, and may take longer to age out to taste good.

Yeah, I guess I was looking for a sort of shortcut method. Looks like I'm going to do the apfelwein for now, and I'll try the cyser when I can free up my better bottle for a longer time.

Thanks for the info, that spreadsheet is pretty nice.

hmmm, now I just noticed this blog post:
http://www.thehoppinghound.com/2009/12/apfelwein-finished-w-ferment.html
where he basically did the same thing I want to do, and with good results.

also, previous post
http://www.thehoppinghound.com/2009/12/belgian-ales-apfelwein-and-oberon.html

Wow 19.3%? Did you add all the fermentables at the same time or slowly, a little at a time?

AnthonyD said:

Yeah, I guess I was looking for a sort of shortcut method. Looks like I'm going to do the apfelwein for now, and I'll try the cyser when I can free up my better bottle for a longer time.

Thanks for the info, that spreadsheet is pretty nice.

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There is certainly nothing wrong with your original idea of subbing the honey for the corn sugar in equal amounts; it won't exactly be a cyser, but then what does it matter? As long as you like it, it's good. Regards, GF.

gratus fermentatio said:

There is certainly nothing wrong with your original idea of subbing the honey for the corn sugar in equal amounts; it won't exactly be a cyser, but then what does it matter? As long as you like it, it's good. Regards, GF.

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Won't that slow down the ferment? How long does Ed's take? Brandon O's Graff is fast, 2 weeks usually. 5 weeks if you bottle and carb like I do.

Teromous said:

Wow 19.3%? Did you add all the fermentables at the same time or slowly, a little at a time?

Click to expand...

I added all at the same time and used champaign yeast. I did this before I started using the spreadsheet and SNA. I started this in October and it is still bubbling. Since I have been using SNA my ferments have been moving much faster even when I do a high gravity mead.

Well my first batch of Apfelwein-cyser is in the fermenter.

I went with 5 gallons of apple juice, 1 lb natural clover honey, and 1 lb dextrose.

I pasteurized the honey in 1.5 gal. of the juice, and put the rest of the juice in the 6gal. better bottle. Then I stirred in the dextrose and chilled the 1.5 gal of must down to 60 degrees. Then, DANG IT, I spilled about half of it on the ground when I was taking it out of the ice bath. So I'm short around a gallon of juice and probably half of my honey/dextrose. OOOPS!

Anyway, I mixed the remainder in well with the rest of the juice, took my OG (which was 1.060), and pitched my Montrachet wine yeast.

It's sitting comfortably at 64 degrees right now. We'll see how it goes.

You might want to pick up some pectic enzyme to throw in since you heated the juice. I personally see no reason to pasteurize honey so heating completely not necessary but seeing as you heated the juice to do this the pectins could be set resulting in some sweet pectic haze.

A pound or two more of honey would've been great...

Tusch said:

You might want to pick up some pectic enzyme to throw in since you heated the juice. I personally see no reason to pasteurize honey so heating completely not necessary but seeing as you heated the juice to do this the pectins could be set resulting in some sweet pectic haze.

Click to expand...

The juice I used was pasteurized and cloudy anyway, so I'm not worried about it. It shouldn't affect the flavor, right?

Well even if its pasteurized and cloudy it would have become clear after fermentation. I use cloudy "cider" all the time and in the end it will clear up. But no worries its mostly just aesthetics, it won't affect flavor.

Thanks, that's what I was banking on.

This batch is really just a first attempt, so from here I'll get more technical and in depth. At this point, I'm just trying to get the mechanics/basics down.

I'm interested in how fast this goes. I made a few ciders/graffs this past fall and it seems everyone on the cider forum discourages the use of honey because it slows the ferment down. Personally I would like to use it, but I like my quick 2 week ferments when I don't use it.

I'll definitely keep this thread updated. I don't know that this batch will be a great indicator though, since I spilled some of the juice/honey/sugar mixture before adding to the rest of the juice in the fermenter and don't know truly how much honey went into the must.

The OG was only 1.060. It's fermenting very actively right now, though.

8 days into fermentation, we're at 1.010.

Pretty tasty! Definitely still an apple taste/aftertaste to it, but most of the sweetness is gone at this point.

Right now it's something like a hard cider. It's even slightly fizzy.

forgot to update this thread. It ended up fermenting out in 6 weeks, and it turned out amazingly delicious. I went ahead and carbed the whole batch. Everyone that has tried it has enjoyed it.

Just curious as to whether you could taste any of the honey. Regards, GF.

I've made about 10 batches of Apfelwein so far and I've learned a few things.

Honey does make the ferment take longer, but I prefer the smoothness of the finished process. I usually add a pound of honey to the 2 pounds of dextrose. I've gone as far as 5lbs on top of 3lbs of dextrose. It has been in bottles for about a week and is already getting better. It was pretty chemical tasting at first though.

I also have a gallon out of a batch of cinnamon/apple sitting in a gallon carboy with 3lbs of honey added that I'm going to let age for probably 6 months or so. Its been bubbling away for about a month.

GF: No, the honey taste does not come through, since it basically ferments out completely.

nsw: That apple/cinnamon sounds like a nice idea to try!

I put ten lbs of honey (4 wildflower from LHBS and 6 clover) in 5 gallons of apple juice in late December 2010. It's now down to 1.035 but I'm considering adding champagne yeast Because i think the Montrachet yeast is pooping out.

I have a different but kind of related question: How long will a Cyser last on the shelf, so to speak? I started a batch a year ago and while it now has a rich flavor and such, a friend of mine mentioned that since it's a Cyser, it won't last much beyond a year and a half before it starts to go south. I'd though that Meads lasted for a few years at least. Should I go to town in drinking the few bottles I have left before they go bad, or can I safely let them age even more?

Arch tech, your friend is mistaken. I have cyser that has been in bottle for over a year. The flavor has changed a lot in that time, but it was all for the better. The flavors have mellowed and a far better flavor profile has emerged. Let it age.

I have a question about cyser. I made my first batch (5 gal.) of cyser using Ken Schramm's Fall Bounty. How long does one want to wait to do the first racking? Most of my other meads clear out fairly quickly and I know this cyser takes longer to clear but should I wait for it to clear more before racking? It's been two months since I started it.