I was scolded at LHBS today when I told em I don't usually use a secondary

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on a stout I just bottled. Watching all the extraneous **** go down the tube into the botteling bucket and eventually to my bottles - I wished I would not have skipped the secondary. Time will tell (3 weeks at 70) if I will need to floss after each bottle. I think you can sense...I'm a bit skeptical.
 
Jhoss said:
on a stout I just bottled. Watching all the extraneous **** go down the tube into the botteling bucket and eventually to my bottles - I wished I would not have skipped the secondary. Time will tell (3 weeks at 70) if I will need to floss after each bottle. I think you can sense...I'm a bit skeptical.
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How long was it in primary? What yeast did you use? What was the recipe?

I have yet brew something that wasn't super clear right out of primary without using a brite tank. Of course I'm also making sure I don't grab crap when racking (from the bottom of the fermenter).
 
Golddiggie said:
How long was it in primary? What yeast did you use? What was the recipe?

I have yet brew something that wasn't super clear right out of primary without using a brite tank. Of course I'm also making sure I don't grab crap when racking (from the bottom of the fermenter).
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Morebeer.com's Irish Stout. 1 month on the primary.
 
I always use a secondary and I always use better bottles.

I have two 6.5 primaries and four 5.0 secondaries. I keg. One batch (Ball's two hearted clone, I believe), I did not secondary or cold crash and just kegged. The first beer was nothing but trub and yeast. Then my beer outpost got completely clogged. I had to disassemble a filled keg to clean it.

Since then, I've never skipped a secondary. My sanitation is good. Three transfers and every transfer results in more clarity.

My ultimate pipeline goal is four serving kegs, two carved kegs, and 4 secondaries cold-crashed and ready to be kegged.
 
Jhoss said:
on a stout I just bottled. Watching all the extraneous **** go down the tube into the botteling bucket and eventually to my bottles - I wished I would not have skipped the secondary. Time will tell (3 weeks at 70) if I will need to floss after each bottle. I think you can sense...I'm a bit skeptical.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you need to learn how to use the siphon.
 
I use a secondary almost everytime. I wouldn't call it unecessary...unless you want to apply that to many techniques of brewing. I hate the oxidation/infection excuse though, its ridiculous and as the above post points out...if you know how to siphon there is zero issue.

I dry-hop in a secondary and I don't get the tight trub/cake that people do in my primary...just spinning the carboy will stir it up. When I transfer to a secondary, I can do so quite freely and literally get almost all the beer out...even the trub that makes it in settles out into a tiny ring in my secondary...it looks a lot like the bottom of a bottle. That is why I do it...but to each his own.
 
@ Jhoss

Not calling your siphoning skills into question but I know on brews with a ton of trub or hop matter I have used a nylon stocking over the end of my siphon and it worked great.

That said, no one needs to try an convince you to not secondary, you tried it, you didn't like it, keep using the secondary if you want. Later down the line if you get lazy and don't want to rack (this was the reason I first started to not use secondary a long time ago) then you can try it again.
 
How tight your yeast cake is, is a function of both time and the yeast strain. WLP002 drops like a stone and you can shake the carboy and it will come up in one piece. Chico will settle much finer and be easier to stir up. That said, if you let it settle well and don't move the carboy as you rack, you can generally get the beer off without much yeast. And in any case, you'll be growing a little more yeast when you bottle condition. How thick the yeast cake is in the bottle, doesn't change the surface contact of the beer to the yeast. Its on the bottom no matter how thick.

I generally don't secondary, but I am aware of the need to avoid oxygen once fermentation is over and CO2 isn't super-saturating the beer. If I ferment in a bucket and can't bottle right away I'll rack to a carboy. These days I'm even doing pressurized fermentation and counter-pressure racking to serving kegs so my beer never sees air.
 
H-ost said:
@ Jhoss

Not calling your siphoning skills into question but I know on brews with a ton of trub or hop matter I have used a nylon stocking over the end of my siphon and it worked great.

That said, no one needs to try an convince you to not secondary, you tried it, you didn't like it, keep using the secondary if you want. Later down the line if you get lazy and don't want to rack (this was the reason I first started to not use secondary a long time ago) then you can try it again.
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Well done - a constructive idea - thank you. A ton of trub and hop matter describes my scenario pretty well. You also characterized my mood when I bottled....LAZY....and impatient. Too impatient to go sanitize, rack wait then bottle - went right to the bottle based on this re-curring theme "secondary is a waste" here. No big deal, I will perfect the "home-brew" pour with this stout coming out of the bottles. Who knows - maybe I won't mind the leftovers (sediment) and will bypass the secondary in the future? But I was kicking myself while draining into the Bottling Bucket this time....
 
I haven't used a secondary in a long time but I don't lager, and only ferment for 3 weeks. If I dry hop, I do it the last 2 weeks. I'm not saying my beers are perfect, but I like 'em and so do my buddies.
Even Charlie Papazian finds no problem with it with most recipes.
If you had lots of adjuncts or fruit, I would use a secondary.
 
Jhoss do you use Whirlfloc or Irish Moss? I use it, and it works great! I highly recommend it! I only primary for 3-4 weeks in buckets and my beer is super clear when I rack to the bottling bucket.. I also scale all of my AG recipies up to 6 gallons so I can leave the last 1/2 gallon of wort that is full of trub in the kettle, thus only transfering very clean wort into the fermentor. It costs any extra buck or two in grain/hops but it's worth it to me.
 
I just didnt see much difference comparing this batch with the previous. Time will tell if my impression of excess junk in the bottle ring true. There was foam (krauzen) residue floating on top that I tried to avoid, and did leave quite a bit of beer in the bucket to avoid getting too close to bottom.

Time will tell - thanks all.
 
There was still krausen when you bottled. Was fermentation complete and the krausen was stuck or are you bottling to early?
 
Wait, did you bottle directly from the primary fermenter??? That could be why right there. When i was bottling (and when my brew-buddy still bottles) I always racked to the bottling bucket, onto the priming solution. IMO mixing in the priming solution into primary is most likely where it went sideways.
 
I use buckets for primary and glass for secondary. I used to use glass for both, but I much prefer plastic for the primary. I like using the glass carboys mainly because it makes me feel like a mad wizard.

I rack most of my beers to secondary, but I'd say I 20% just go through a long haul in the primary. Everything turns out delicious. I've recently had a brewer from Sam Adams tell me to forget about secondary and to really ramp up the amount of yeast I pitch.

I'll probably continue to do it my way (though I do make yeast starters now).
 
In regards to oxidization... Even with wine I have always given my carboys and bottles at bottling time a good shot of CO2 so that the beer and wine siphons into them under that blanket of CO2 pushing the O2 and starsan bubbles out the top. Call me paranoid but I don't think secondary(ing) like this exposes it to much oxygen.

I like to secondary because it gives me something to do while I'm waiting and I feel like I'm part of the process... lol
 
Chaddyb said:
I wasnt even talking to this guy originally, I was looking at the glasses. My buddy who is getting his feet wet brewing was asking him about getting a carboy as I walked up. He asked if he needed one for primary or secondary. (hes using my equipment right now, and buying stuff for himself here and there) I told him I use a bucket for primary, and rarely secondary, unless Im aging, dry hopping, or adding fruit. He asked how long I ferment, and I told him 3-6 weeks depending. He asked me "how is that working out?" I told him its been working great. He then proceeded to tell me how my beer is going to taste like cardboard, and hes sure something doesnt taste right with my brews.

To me he seemed like the know it all type, he kept saying how buckets never seal air tight, and was talking about his dad brewing twenty some years ago.
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I guessing he overheard you telling your friend to go with a cheaper setup and saw his profits dwindling so he decided to make it look like you are uninformed. Personally when I come across local retailers like that I never go back. There are tons of places online and off where I can buy this stuff so why waste my time and money at a retailer who is more interested in boosting his profits rather than giving me proper advice WHEN ASKED FOR?
 
I find it a bit curious that people are so concerned about siphoning up a little yeast when transferring - especially from folks who do longer primary only beers. Sucking up a little yeast is not going to result in a cloudy beer. The yeast that are being sucked up are ones that have already settled out, and will do so again fairly quickly in the new container (whatever it is).

I take care to minimize the amount of yeast that I might transfer over, but I find it is not worth any extra effort to make sure I don't transfer any of the settled yeast. Plus I'm a cheap bastard and want as much of my beer as I can get
 
pjj2ba said:
I take care to minimize the amount of yeast that I might transfer over, but I find it is not worth any extra effort to make sure I don't transfer any of the settled yeast. Plus I'm a cheap bastard and want as much of my beer as I can get
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I purposely pick up a little yeast from the cake with my autosiphon when I rack to the bottle bucket as insurance that I have ample yeast for carbonating. I still get very clear beer, and the yeast that settles in the bottle (which isn't much) doesn't bother me at all...
 
Chaddyb said:
And he told me I should only primary in a glass carboy, not a bucket. he continued to tell me how I couldnt be making good beer only doing a primary fermentation, and I should be pulling the beer off the yeast cake after two weeks. I typically leave my beer in primary for anywhere between 3 weeks to 6 weeks, depending on what it is. What do you guys think?
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Your response should be:
"Whatever, Gramps...Pick up a brewing book that was written after the turn of the century".
Then, start going to a new brew store.
 
This myth won't die.

I had multiple competition 1st place medals and a best of show placing with a lager I bottled straight out of primary after 9 days.
 
Just wanted to say that this happened to me too. I went to a shop to get another carboy to ferment in when I was JUST starting out (getting ready for my 2nd or 3rd batch). The guy at the counter was shocked and appalled that I didn't secondary! He said that I would make WAY better beer one.

Still a noob but I've had success both ways.
 
smizak said:
This myth won't die.

I had multiple competition 1st place medals and a best of show placing with a lager I bottled straight out of primary after 9 days.
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I like this idea! How long did you lager the bottles, and at what temp?
 


Strange my LHBS told me to use my bucket for my primary and for the secondary use a 5 gal glass carboy and not a 6 gal.

I said well i was "thinking of using two glass carboys" and not a bucket he said don't waste your time or money. the glass is a PITA to clean unless you really want to use it. stick with the bucket. " So I did, I still use my carboy for a secondary though.

Do what makes you happy and what every you like. there is 100 ways to skin a cat just because someone's way is different doesn't make it wrong if it works for you or them.

 
Stauffbier said:
I like this idea! How long did you lager the bottles, and at what temp?
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I didn't purposely "lager" them per say. After carbing up I just stored them in my fridge. When they dropped clear(chill haze) I started drinking and entering them, they were delicious a week after I put them in the cold. I do the same for all beer, ale or lager. Hate serving cloudy homebrew.
 
smizak said:
This myth won't die.

I had multiple competition 1st place medals and a best of show placing with a lager I bottled straight out of primary after 9 days.
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What are your percentages of good to great beers? I am in the 3 week camp.
I have had beers that tasted like crap at 9 days and fantastic at 3 weeks.
I would rather wait than risk a crappy beer. I have made 20 batches and have not had a bad one among them.

Oh drat I just jinxed myself again!:(

I don't feel that it is a myth. And, I think you are in a minority on this topic.
Now the difference between 3 and 4 weeks???

Edit: Sorry for the off topic rant in response to a rant!
Edit 2: But whatever works for you.
 
kh54s10 said:
What are your percentages of good to great beers? I am in the 3 week camp.
I have had beers that tasted like crap at 9 days and fantastic at 3 weeks.
I would rather wait than risk a crappy beer. I have made 20 batches and have not had a bad one among them.

Oh drat I just jinxed myself again!:(

I don't feel that it is a myth. And, I think you are in a minority on this topic.
Now the difference between 3 and 4 weeks???

Edit: Sorry for the off topic rant in response to a rant!
Edit 2: But whatever works for you.
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I have over two dozen medals and I finished third in the New York State Homebrewer of the Year (NYSHOTY) competition last year, an invitational that only homebrewers with over five medal wins in that season could enter. Just scored another over the weekend for a Scottish 80 at the Amber Waves of Grain, a competition with 635 entries that I also judged in.

I short primary (< 1 week) almost all of my beers. My Saisons definitely take a bit longer.

I'm not trying to brag or get into a pissing contest. Brew the way you want. I'm trying to make a point and my credentials speak to it. I'm sure beers can be great with 3 week primaries and whatever secondaries people use. But the incessant insistence on this forum that you MUST do a 3 week primary by some members or that you must do a secondary from a guy whose primary interest is to sell you more equipment drives me nuts. It's one of the reasons I stopped posting for a couple of months here. Every time I went to give somebody some advice I'd get flamed for it.

See things haven't changed.

I might be in the minority, but I also know that there are some seriously kick-ass, as in NATIONAL competition winning brewers that post here that will agree with me.
 
I 2ndary all of my beers. I haven't been brewing long enough to tell you a difference but it helps clear up my beers and I appreciate clear beers. A little less yeast in my bottles=a little more aesthetically pleasing to me. That's all.

Do what works for you and what you like
 
I don't primary for very long, either. Typically a week or so, then off to a secondary. I definitely agree with you, but my experience isn't very extensive.

I do make a starter for every batch, though.

It is wa works for me and how I like to brew....
 

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