OG-wan Kenobi
Arcane Artisanal Ales
Depends on fermentation temps
When to use US-05 vs. S-04?
- Thread starter StophJS
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Depends on fermentation temps
Na not really... I just tried fermenting it at the lowest end of the range and the taste I got from it was not nice. It wasn't clean but it also wasn't nicely English style ester heaven. Somehow muddled and just not pleasant. Not a fan of it. I think I'd go with Nottingham at medium temperature and mash really high.
Or I would go with 05 and also mash high, if I wanted it to have a lower attenuation.
OG-wan Kenobi
Arcane Artisanal Ales
I find at low temps 60'ish F 04 finishes very clean for me but at around 70F I find 05 to finish cleaner, but we are all different
I never touch Nottingham used it twice years ago in Northern Brewer kits and hated it gave me an intense ester flavor that turned me off and made a mess in the blow off tube I have never thought about it since
Hmmmm there was something wrong then. Notti is usually really clean. It mutes hops quite a bit but that would fit well to an Irish red. But other than that, it's too boring for me. It's also ok for a clean stout. It floccs well.... But again... Booooring.
OG-wan Kenobi
Arcane Artisanal Ales
It was probably 10 years ago when I used to ferment in the storage closet under the steps in the apartment we had back then my guess would be temps got away from me but I can still taste it when I think about it - YUCK. I am a very big fan of boring yeast LOL keep those Belgian beers away from me I cannot appreciate them with those esters.
Sounds like it, notty likes it cool. Actually...I think it is probably the best choice of dry yeast out there for an Irish red, if you can keep it at around 18c or below. The only thing is, it has a constantly high attenuation, which I personally like, but might not be what op is looking for.
D.B.Moody
Well-Known Member
You could consider S-33, the old Edme strain. Lower attenuation; it produces nice British ales. It doesn't clear as well as Nottingham or US05. I brewed an Irish red ale Sunday using S-33.
Edit: I checked my notes; I've brewed my Irish red ale 6 times since 2011: 4 times with Nottingham, 1 time with Munton's, and 1 time (this Sunday) with S-33.
Edit: I checked my notes; I've brewed my Irish red ale 6 times since 2011: 4 times with Nottingham, 1 time with Munton's, and 1 time (this Sunday) with S-33.
Last edited:
Toxxyc
New and loving it
OK you guys aren't helping here 
I've got S-04 and US-05 here. I've also got Voss (Kveik) but I'm not sure it's suitable to the style (too fruity).
So essentially I want to try S-04 or US-05, because that's what I have.
On the other hand, I also have some lager yeasts. I've got S-23 and also a house-brand "german pilsner yeast" around here. The pilsner one I've used with a pils and also have a marzen on the go with it, and it's a very good yeast (albeit VERY slow). Would that not work as well? Sure, then I guess it won't be an IRA, but at least it'll be clean?
I've got S-04 and US-05 here. I've also got Voss (Kveik) but I'm not sure it's suitable to the style (too fruity).
So essentially I want to try S-04 or US-05, because that's what I have.
On the other hand, I also have some lager yeasts. I've got S-23 and also a house-brand "german pilsner yeast" around here. The pilsner one I've used with a pils and also have a marzen on the go with it, and it's a very good yeast (albeit VERY slow). Would that not work as well? Sure, then I guess it won't be an IRA, but at least it'll be clean?
A lager yeast would work perfectly if you ask me!OK you guys aren't helping here
I've got S-04 and US-05 here. I've also got Voss (Kveik) but I'm not sure it's suitable to the style (too fruity).
So essentially I want to try S-04 or US-05, because that's what I have.
On the other hand, I also have some lager yeasts. I've got S-23 and also a house-brand "german pilsner yeast" around here. The pilsner one I've used with a pils and also have a marzen on the go with it, and it's a very good yeast (albeit VERY slow). Would that not work as well? Sure, then I guess it won't be an IRA, but at least it'll be clean?
Toxxyc
New and loving it
OK that makes it simple. I've got the Marzen on the go, and I'll be crashing it probably at the end of the week. After racking it'll be bulk aged for a bit (racked off the yeast cake) but then I'll just pour the IRA wort straight onto that yeast cake. Both are darker beers so I'm not worried about the colour, and the Marzen was really lightly bittered to the hop influence will be minimal.
Yeah let's do that. That sounds like a plan!
Yeah let's do that. That sounds like a plan!
Sounds good to me. What's your grain bill?
Toxxyc
New and loving it
For the IRA or the Marzen?
EDIT: Let me post both:
Marzen (came out at 23l):
2kg Pale Malt
2kg Pilsner Malt
250gr CaraMunich I
250gr Goldswaen Brown
IRA (still debating this one a bit) for a 20l batch, might be a bit more, around 22l perhaps if my efficiency keeps it up:
1.75kg Pale Malt
1.75kg Pilsner Malt
200gr Munich Type 1
200gr Munich Type 2
110gr/120gr Roasted Barley
OK so for the IRA I am "debating" the grain bill as I'm not entirely sure what to go with in terms of the base malt. Yes, Pale would probably be more malty than the pilsner malt in there as well, but for some reason the 50/50 pale/pilsner mix for me works REALLY well in my beers. I've done the 50/50 thing in the Marzen and it is turning out absolutely incredible. Our pale malt (the one I use) isn't THE best quality and I tend to get an almost green grainy flavour of it when I use 100% of the base malt as that in beers that's not too bitter (like the IRA).
I'll be using Hellertau Nugget as the hop in this IRA. I read about East Kent Goldings and all those sort of hops but from what I've seen it seems Nugget will work as well (and I have it).
So that's my idea. I'm planning on mashing at around 69°C to see where it comes out. I THINK I might just double up that recipe and making two no-chill cubes at once, and then I'll just sell the other one (got a client who said he'd be interested).
EDIT: Let me post both:
Marzen (came out at 23l):
2kg Pale Malt
2kg Pilsner Malt
250gr CaraMunich I
250gr Goldswaen Brown
IRA (still debating this one a bit) for a 20l batch, might be a bit more, around 22l perhaps if my efficiency keeps it up:
1.75kg Pale Malt
1.75kg Pilsner Malt
200gr Munich Type 1
200gr Munich Type 2
110gr/120gr Roasted Barley
OK so for the IRA I am "debating" the grain bill as I'm not entirely sure what to go with in terms of the base malt. Yes, Pale would probably be more malty than the pilsner malt in there as well, but for some reason the 50/50 pale/pilsner mix for me works REALLY well in my beers. I've done the 50/50 thing in the Marzen and it is turning out absolutely incredible. Our pale malt (the one I use) isn't THE best quality and I tend to get an almost green grainy flavour of it when I use 100% of the base malt as that in beers that's not too bitter (like the IRA).
I'll be using Hellertau Nugget as the hop in this IRA. I read about East Kent Goldings and all those sort of hops but from what I've seen it seems Nugget will work as well (and I have it).
So that's my idea. I'm planning on mashing at around 69°C to see where it comes out. I THINK I might just double up that recipe and making two no-chill cubes at once, and then I'll just sell the other one (got a client who said he'd be interested).
Last edited:
IRA!
The IRA sounds reasonable to me. The Munich probably isn't very much the original thing, but will work well I guess. I like the absence of crystal and that you use roasted barley.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
So I'm not always brewing "to style", so to speak. I'll usually take a recipe "to style" and then tweak it to my own tastes. That's what I did with the Marzen as well. I try to match colour and IBU, and then usually adjust the grain bill "to fit" my flavour, obviously within reason.
The Marzen is a good example of that, that happened to turn out great. The Goldswaen brown was something I had on hand that I just decided on when I thought about a way to boost the sweet malty flavours in the Marzen, and it worked.
The IRA I want to do the same. I LOVE the red hue that the roasted barley can impart in a beer, so I'm going to give that a shot. The Munich, albeit probably not style-specific, it's probably not traditional and it's probably not "what everyone does", but I don't really care. I brew for myself, for the most part, and I've never brewed a bad beer following this logic (yet).
Then again, even following the official style guide, it seems to indicate a low to moderate malt aroma, either neutral grainy or slightly on the sweet caramel, toasty, toffee side. Same goes for the flavour as well, and that's why I went with the combination of roasted barley and Munich malts.
EDIT: I actually see that David Heath recommends the use of Munich to a higher degree. I see he mentions 1-1.5% Roasted Barley only, actually, so I might turn it down a bit on mine.
The Marzen is a good example of that, that happened to turn out great. The Goldswaen brown was something I had on hand that I just decided on when I thought about a way to boost the sweet malty flavours in the Marzen, and it worked.
The IRA I want to do the same. I LOVE the red hue that the roasted barley can impart in a beer, so I'm going to give that a shot. The Munich, albeit probably not style-specific, it's probably not traditional and it's probably not "what everyone does", but I don't really care. I brew for myself, for the most part, and I've never brewed a bad beer following this logic (yet).
Then again, even following the official style guide, it seems to indicate a low to moderate malt aroma, either neutral grainy or slightly on the sweet caramel, toasty, toffee side. Same goes for the flavour as well, and that's why I went with the combination of roasted barley and Munich malts.
EDIT: I actually see that David Heath recommends the use of Munich to a higher degree. I see he mentions 1-1.5% Roasted Barley only, actually, so I might turn it down a bit on mine.
My approach to brewing is identical.
As for your reasoning regarding the Munich, I thought the same. It fits the taste. Regarding the roasted barley, I think everything between 1,5 and 3 % is reasonable. I think my IRA had 2 or 2.5% and the colour was spot on.
I found out that I'm not such a big IRA fan. It's a nice beer, but also a bit boring. My English friends loved it though. "It's like the best of a bitter and a stout came together!".
To me it was just a bit boring tbh.
Last edited:
Toxxyc
New and loving it
Ah OK, cool. I've used Roasted Barley VERY sparingly in the past because I'm quite sensitive to the taste. For example, where some people dumps it into stouts by the ton (well, not really), I despise those numbers and usually substitute lots of it for something like chocolate malt. I just don't want the IRA to pick up a roasted flavour (that bitter, almost coffee flavour), but if you say you've gone 2.5% and it worked I'm happy. I'm working on going with around 2%.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
Ah, a late edit I didn't see. I have to comment on this, sorry.
So, the IRA. I was never the kind to enjoy the darker ales, including stouts, but for some reason the IRA just "stuck" with me. I don't even remember where my first IRA was tasted, or which one it was. I do remember stumbling upon the style every now and again, and I've always taken the chance to taste it. I remember tasting one from an Irish brewpub a long, long time ago though, and that one stuck. It was a low-carbonated IRA, brewed to a higher IBU than the style typically allows and it has quite a sweet finish. Absolutely beautiful beer, although I have no idea how it'll fare in a BJCP competition: The Gilroy Traditional Ruby Ale » Gilroys Brewery
Since tasting that one I've told myself I'll make an IRA one day. I never had the guts, because I see it as a fairly fragile beer. The flavours are quite subtle and gentle, and I don't want to stuff it up. To boot, I Googled a recipe years ago that also included honey, and considering honey costs a fortune I never had the drive to do it.
Until a few weeks ago a client asked me if I could do an IRA in kit form for him. So I figured "why not?". Since I started this brewing thing I've gained a lot of experience and even managed to knock out a few very clean lagers and pilsners. An IRA shouldn't be more difficult at all. I did some research on recipes and built my own as above. Now I'm going to brew it, just to see what comes of it.
To me, it's not difficult at all. Use roast barley or dehusked roast barley, go very low on crystal, sub 5% or leave it out completely, use some nice pale malt and a clean ale or lager yeast. Ferment accordingly, so that it stays clean. Medium carbonation and no or minimal late hop additions. No dry hop.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
Yeah I think that's about where my recipe is at as well. No crystal, opting for Munich instead. No late or dry hopping, literally a single 60-minute addition. I'll be dosing this one with Irish moss to get it clearer quicker, and carbonating it quite low for myself. Some beers I enjoy very low carbed, and this is one of them.
I think Irish Moss does not do anything for clarity. It just leads to bigger chunks of protein during the boil, so it's easier to separate tub from the wort, after the boil. But this does not carry over into the beer, as the primary factor here is the yeast and not the wort.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
I believe it helps protein coagulation, so it might lead to a clearer beer if there's proteins in there (dunno if there is). I've got it on hand, so might as well chuck it in.
Coagulation was the word I was looking for. Yes it does that, but only in the boil, not afterwards. Other then chill haze, proteins do not affect clarity in the final beer, so this step does not help with clarity.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
I'm aware of this, yes, but I do know that something like protein haze exists. Granted, I'm not sure it exists in beer, nor am I sure that Irish Moss helps for that.
This protein haze is existing in beer and it is called chill haze. I got it all the time.
But this is a bit of a special haze and I don't know if Irish moss actually does something against it.
It is actually just a tool to get clear wort after boiling... So a bit unnecessary if you ask me.
Clear wort before the boil, another topic, but after the boil.... Not really important.
I think that Irish Moss or Whirlfloc added at the end of the boil helps with the formation of a cold break in the kettle, if your process allows for it, which you can then more easily leave behind in the kettle. I use whirlfloc these days (because the brew club where I brew at provides it for all the brewers) and I use an immersion chiller, so get a big cold break, which I do leave behind in the kettle. Miraculix's question of whether any of that matters in the final beer is a good one, but I figure leaving it out the fermenter doesn't hurt. But I used to use an counter flow chiller and whirlpool so never got a cold break and I brewed good beer then, also LOL.
For chill haze, there is a product I use in every beer I make these days, made by White Labs, called Clarity Ferm. It not only reduces chill haze but also reduces gluten in your beers to the point that many people who get violently sick from gluten can drink my beer without a problem. Its an enzyme that you add at the beginning of fermentation, after the wort is chilled.
For chill haze, there is a product I use in every beer I make these days, made by White Labs, called Clarity Ferm. It not only reduces chill haze but also reduces gluten in your beers to the point that many people who get violently sick from gluten can drink my beer without a problem. Its an enzyme that you add at the beginning of fermentation, after the wort is chilled.
I've replied to some very old threads before and felt like a jacka$$, but not the case here. This thread was an excellent read. Lots of good info here. Thanks!
Agreed, nothing wrong with reviving old threads. There is a reason we are very reluctant to delete old posts and threads - the forum is a repository of a lot of knowledge.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
Yeah okay then I'll just leave it out. I do no-chill brewing anyway, so Irish Moss is a waste for me. I also don't leave ANYTHING in the kettle. The whole shebang goes into the cube, and the whole cube's contents (including all the trub and crap) goes into the fermenter.
So yes, Irish Moss is a total waste in my case.
So yes, Irish Moss is a total waste in my case.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
OK so this one is finally going. I changed the recipe a tiny bit, doubled it up and changed the finals to:
3.5kg Pale Malt
2.3kg Pilsner Malt (what was left in the bag)
1kg Vienna Malt (what was left in the bucket)
400gr Munich T1
400gr Munich T2
230gr Roasted Barley
I'm aiming for a ~44l batch with this. This SHOULD give me a nice 4.7% ABV, if my efficiency keeps at the 90% I keep hitting these days.
If you want to keep the roast flavor down, have you considered over night cold steeping the roasted barley? You can then add the liquid at flame out.
The colour contribution will be a bit of a gamble though..... But in my experience, this will result in less roasted character compared to throwing it in the mash.
Toxxyc
New and loving it
Eh, I already added it. It smells good, and I don't mind some roasted flavours either. It's style-accurate, so I'll just have to wait and see. Mashing pretty high at 69°C to get some unfermentables. I can't wait for this one, really.
Similar threads
