White Labs Liquid yeast and starter question..

Just got my first liquid yeast vial, it is white labs and will be using it in a brown ale (yeah another one). I was wondering if i need a starter or not I have heard yes and I have heard no. If I do need a starter what do I need to start it and maintain it... (I tried to search but i am still a little confused, speak to me as if you were teaching a Labrador to brew) Really don't wanna have to buy a stir plate and extra equipment but i will if i have to..

Hey Dude. It depends on your final volume and starting gravity. Go here to figure out how big a starter you need. Then use 100 grams of dme per liter of water for the starter. So if it says you need a 1.5 L starter, boil 150 grams of DME in 1.5L of water for 15 minutes. Cool to about 70 degrees F then pour the vial in. Be sure to aerate somehow, be it using a stir plate or shaking the hell out of it ever 2 hours or so. It will be ready to pitch in 18-24 hrs or you could pop it in the fridge at that point in order to get the yeast to fall out. Then decant (pour out) the liquid on top of the yeast cake, swirl the cake with the remaining liquid and pitch into your cooled wort! Easy peasy!

EDIT: Oh yeah, if you don't want to buy a stir plate, you can also put the starter in a 2 L coke bottle. Just be sure to rinse it out well and sanitize it first. The put the starter wort in, shake the hell out of it and pitch the yeast. Crimp sanitized aluminum foil over the top. Then about every two hours, sanitize the coke bottle cap, screw it on and shake again. That introduces oxygen to the wort and promotes yeast reproduction. Be careful when opening it again since a lot of dissolved CO2 will come out of solution and try to foam out of the bottle!

I always use a starter with White Labs yeast. It reduces lag time, which improves quality (in theory). It also proofs the yeast, so I know it's viable before I pitch (no "I pitched 30 hours ago and still no airlock activity!" worries). And you can taste the starter to make sure that everything is ok before you pitch.

Also, you don't need a stir plate. You get more yeast cells if your starter is well aerated, so the more you shake it the better (within reason). You don't even need to shake it at all -- you'll just won't get as many cells as if you could have had.

Sounds great guys... I assume the DME is the food for the yeast I know it is dry malt extract. But I currently only have the liquid extract from my brew kit. What, if anything, else could I use for yeast food?

DME = Dried Malt Extract. From your lack of experience I assume you aren't doing all grain. So what exactly are you using to make your beer?

You can use either dried or liquid malt extract for your starter.

Since I've gone all grain, I don't remember the dried-to-liquid extract conversions. But I use 1 cup (137 g) of dried malt extract per liter that the Mr. Malty starter calculator above tells me to. (Others may disagree with this starter "recipe" but it's worked for me).

I am using this Nut Brown kit with an upgrade to the white lab liquid yeast.
Click Here
My extract is in a sealed plastic bag so it would be hard to open and use some for my starter but I will probably just order some DME

Korben said:

speak to me as if you were teaching a Labrador to brew

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SIT!

Always make a yeast starter. You can believe the White Labs label that the yeast tube is "pitchable" by itself and you can also believe the label of a Miller Lite that it's a true pilsner beer.

You don't have to own a stir plate to make a starter. Just use a 22oz or larger bottle with an airlock and about a pint of starter solution, a moderate gravity wort 1.035-1.045. Either DME or LME works fine. For a quick and dirty method use a 12 oz bottle of Malta and 6 oz of water. Even a simple basic starter is far better than pitching "as is" and you can always increase your sophistication as you progress.

A yeast starter certainly isn't going to hurt you. On a homebrew level is hard to pitch too much yeast. It's up to you if you want to use one though. If you do, get some extra malt extract and make up a pint or so of wort that is around 1.040. Put the wort in a small vessel that you can use for fermentation. Once the starter has begun to ferment you have two choices, you can either pitch the starter into your batch while the starter is at high krausen, or you can wait for the starter to ferment fully and pitch it then. I'm not sure what the advantages disadvantages are either way. But pitching lots of yeast in a homebrew batch is hardly ever a bad thing.

Brian

Until about 3 batches ago I had never made a starter and while I now think a starter is a good move its not required. I made a 9.0% maple wheat ale and plenty of 7%ish Stone clone's all without a starter. They were made using White labs yeast.

My first lager actually turned out quite well and it had no starter. I think that was using a white labs yeast also.

Yunus said:

Until about 3 batches ago I had never made a starter and while I now think a starter is a good move its not required. I made a 9.0% maple wheat ale and plenty of 7%ish Stone clone's all without a starter. They were made using White labs yeast.

My first lager actually turned out quite well and it had no starter. I think that was using a white labs yeast also.

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So you just poured in the vial of white labs?

Also, I know malta is like a specialty soda right... well, I doubt my local walmart has any and i am afraid to open my back of LME due to risk of infection. Is there anything else that can be used to make a starter?

Korben said:

So you just poured in the vial of white labs?

Also, I know malta is like a specialty soda right... well, I doubt my local walmart has any and i am afraid to open my back of LME due to risk of infection. Is there anything else that can be used to make a starter?

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If you don't have a local homebrew store that can sell you malt extract, I wouldn't try to make a starter. You definitely do not want to open the bag before you brew (it is fermentable after all).

You'll have a longer lag time and the vial will probably be active ... so you'll probably make a good beer.

My only advice for you now is make absolutely sure your beer is between 70 and 75°F when you add the vial. Too hot and it will kill the yeast. Too cold and fermentation won't begin.

Korben said:

So you just poured in the vial of white labs?

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Yep, let it get up to room temperature and shake it and pour it in.
The first beer I made was at my LHBS and the guy teaching me pulled the vial out of the fridge and had me put it in my pocket, about 2 hours later when we were ready to pitch , he had me do the same thing, shake and then pour it in.

Talk about the blind leading the blind. It's not for lack of cause, that the best homebrewers say that one of, if not the most important factor in making good beer, is pitch rate. Don't let me interrupt your party though. Carry on.

If you aren't making a starter using liquid yeast is not an "upgrade", in fact it's probably a downgrade since your pitching rates are going to be lower. I actually think that if you aren't using a starter you shouldn't be using liquid yeast. I am not as big of a fan of nottingham as most on here but it does make a really nice brown ale, so that would probably be the better option for this beer.

Yeah I think it maybe looking that way. I will probably just make this with the powder and the required equipment for a start and make another english type ale with my liquid yeast...

KingBrianI said:

Talk about the blind leading the blind. It's not for lack of cause, that the best homebrewers say that one of, if not the most important factor in making good beer, is pitch rate. Don't let me interrupt your party though. Carry on.

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KingBrian -- If you are such an expert on the topic, then why not share your vast knowledge? Clearly we have a group of people, most with good intentions, sharing their experiences with others that have less experience. To my knowledge, nobody on this post claims to have a Ph.D. in Beerology... I think that your response was childish and unproductive, at best.

Now, my take on the starter issue: I am clearly not an expert, so what I am sharing is what I have learned from my own experience and information that I have taken from others. One great source for yeast starter info is MrMalty.com, he has given a lot of details on the topic. One key is to make sure you use maltose (basically malt extract) rather than corn sugar (like the priming sugar). If you use the simple sugar for the starter the yeast will lose their ability to process the more complex sugars and your fermentation will struggle. So, I would stick with malt extract for the starter. Also, you want to make sure you hit the specified gravity on the starter, too heavy or too light will effect the health of the yeast. Many people say that doing a starter improperly can actually have negative impact on your fermentation. Many of my friends that homebrew just pitch the yeast straight from the vial with good results, not contest winning or "knock your socks off", but good. My first several batches I pitched right from the vials, with good results. Since I have started using the starters I have noticed that the fermentation has gone a bit faster (people have mixed feelings on this -- good, bad, who knows...).

So, to finish it off, I would say just pitch the yeast straight from the vial this time. Chances are, you will be fine. In the future I would recommend starters, they are considered necessary for high gravity beers and lagers, so at some point you will need to do it to get the results that you desire. But when it comes to homebrew, don't get stressed out. There are a thousand ways to skin a cat...

There's always a better way to make beer, and this is just another in the series. Yes, you can pitch the liquid yeast directly into your wort and it will work. Is a starter better, yes. On lower gravity beers (basically the same beer your brewing) the direct pour method has worked for me so I wouldn't hesitate to suggest it for this application and circumstances.

sigmund said:

There's always a better way to make beer, and this is just another in the series. Yes, you can pitch the liquid yeast directly into your wort and it will work. Is a starter better, yes. On lower gravity beers (basically the same beer your brewing) the direct pour method has worked for me so I wouldn't hesitate to suggest it for this application and circumstances.

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+1
I'm sure there are people on this forum who would be horrified by my lack of a wort chiller, stir plate, fermentation temperature control, choice of sanitizer, etc...

If you can manage to make a starter, by all means, do it. I always do. It is a must for lagers, IMHO. My first 3-4 brews, I did not and the beer turned out just fine.

Pitch at room temperature and get as much oxygen into your wort as possible. Shake the hell out of it!!! As long as your sanitation is good, you'll be good. There may be a lag time before fermantaion begins, but just relax. It'll be beer.

So, while we're talking about starters...

I make mine in a 2000ml glass flask. Do I need to be careful to keep the starter in the dark during fermentation the same way one keeps a carboy in the dark?

Brian

Benthic said:

So, while we're talking about starters...

I make mine in a 2000ml glass flask. Do I need to be careful to keep the starter in the dark during fermentation the same way one keeps a carboy in the dark?

Brian

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Not unless you have hops in your starter and I don't know why you would.

dehn0045 said:

KingBrian -- If you are such an expert on the topic, then why not share your vast knowledge? Clearly we have a group of people, most with good intentions, sharing their experiences with others that have less experience. To my knowledge, nobody on this post claims to have a Ph.D. in Beerology... I think that your response was childish and unproductive, at best.

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If you would like to see my vast knowledge, take a look at the second post in this thread. A starter is so easy, there is no reason not to make one. Pitching a proper cell count is imperative to creating the best beer possible. There has been poor info put forth in this thread and rather than let the OP be misled, I thought to correct it. Someone mentioned not opening the bag of DME until you're ready to use it because it's fermentable. Aer you serious? I don't think there is any better analogy than the blind leading the blind. Perhaps it's idealistic, but I'd like for a question to only be answered if someone knows the answer.

Benthic said:

So, while we're talking about starters...

I make mine in a 2000ml glass flask. Do I need to be careful to keep the starter in the dark during fermentation the same way one keeps a carboy in the dark?

Brian

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I usually just wrap a towel around mine to shield any UV.

Korben said:

So you just poured in the vial of white labs?

Also, I know malta is like a specialty soda right... well, I doubt my local walmart has any and i am afraid to open my back of LME due to risk of infection. Is there anything else that can be used to make a starter?

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Goya Malta is sold in most grocery stores it would be in the ethnic foods isle. I am pretty sure Walmart would have it also. You could use some of the LME just as long as proper sanitation is used. Just sanitize the outside of the bag and scissors and pour some out . It wont go bad in a day.

The kit looks like it has Notty dry yeast I would just use that this time you can rehydrate or just pitch it dry .And I really dont think liquid yeast is really an upgrade for this beer the Notty is perfectly good to great yeast for this beer.

springer said:

Goya Malta is sold in most grocery stores it would be in the ethnic foods isle. I am pretty sure Walmart would have it also. You could use some of the LME just as long as proper sanitation is used. Just sanitize the outside of the bag and scissors and pour some out . It wont go bad in a day.

The kit looks like it has Notty dry yeast I would just use that this time you can rehydrate or just pitch it dry .And I really dont think liquid yeast is really an upgrade for this beer the Notty is perfectly good to great yeast for this beer.

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Thanks! I probably will do that and pick up a stir plate some DME and a 1000 ml or 2000 ml Erlenmeyer to begin making starters. Any suggestion on a brew that would benefit from this Liquid Yeast?

KingBrianI said:

Perhaps it's idealistic, but I'd like for a question to only be answered if someone knows the answer.

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Just got my first liquid yeast vial, it is white labs and will be using it in a brown ale (yeah another one). I was wondering if i need a starter or not I have heard yes and I have heard no.

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If that's the case, then the answer is no, he does not need a starter to make the beer. The instructions don't call for it and the beer can be made very nicely without a starter. Pitching the yeast as per the instructions will yield what he is looking for.

Do the instructions say to ferment for 7 days then bottle too? Because a lot of the kits instructions are a kind of lowest common denominator type thing. Sure, you can follow what it says and you'd end up with beer. Or you could take the time to do things right and make really good beer. The OP should use the following calculator to get an idea of whether he needs a starter and if so, what size it needs to be.

Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator

I try to keep a pound or two of DME around at all times. Why not start with some DME and ab 2000 ml flask, you dont have to have a stir plate right away, shaking works just fine. Get some practice doing the starters and then upgrade to a stir plate later.

For me, I love doing the starter approx. 4-5 days prior to brewday, let it go for at least 2 days(on a Stir plate) then put it in the fridge to decant. The day of the brew I pull it out and let it naturally warm up to pitching temps. Then just decant and pitch.

Eastside

KingBrianI said:

Sure, you can follow what it says and you'd end up with beer.

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Exactly what he was asking.

Why are we arguing?

sigmund said:

Exactly what he was asking.

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Korben said:

Just got my first liquid yeast vial, it is white labs and will be using it in a brown ale (yeah another one). I was wondering if i need a starter or not I have heard yes and I have heard no. If I do need a starter what do I need to start it and maintain it... (I tried to search but i am still a little confused, speak to me as if you were teaching a Labrador to brew) Really don't wanna have to buy a stir plate and extra equipment but i will if i have to..

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Seems to me like he was asking whether he needed a starter and how to start and maintain it. Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator will let him know. I assume since he is on this board and cares enough to ask questions, that he is interested in making the beer right. I thought everyone on this board wanted to make the best beer they could. I guess I was wrong as it seems some are content with swill.

KingBrianI said:

Why are we arguing?





Seems to me like he was asking whether he needed a starter and how to start and maintain it. Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator will let him know. I assume since he is on this board and cares enough to ask questions, that he is interested in making the beer right. I thought everyone on this board wanted to make the best beer they could. I guess I was wrong as it seems some are content with swill.

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If an outsider can mediate or shed insight, I think it's more the attitude some read into your words moreso than the words themselves. No one is arguing against making a starter. It's clear that better beer will be made that way. But ... For example in the post quoted above you imply that if he doesn't make a starter, he won't make beer but swill. I know from experience that good beer can be made without a starter. Better beer can be made with one. The other problem is that quality processes present a slippery slope. You could just as easily say the "content with swill" line about not having an electronic fermentation temperature control or a wort chiller or matching your water chemistry to the style of beer being brewed.

It's clear from the original post that the poster is someone just starting out. I think some others might fear that you're overwhelming him or belittling his efforts by saying that if he doesn't brew beer your way, that he shouldn't even bother. When I learned to homebrew, I read Papazian and Palmer's books before I even bought my equipment and made a reasonably good ESB. But that's not everyone's approach as I hear a lot of people on the forum saying their first batch was from a Mr. Beer kit. The original poster may well just want to get blitzed on cheap hooch, but we should try to be more warmly welcoming and accepting of people getting into the hobby in general and new members in particular.

Whatever your thoughts are about what I said, I don't want to muddle up this thread any more than it already has been. It's really turned into a question of brewing philosophy more than technique, so if you want to correspond on the matter please do so by private message.

Eastside Brewer said:

I try to keep a pound or two of DME around at all times. Why not start with some DME and ab 2000 ml flask, you dont have to have a stir plate right away, shaking works just fine. Get some practice doing the starters and then upgrade to a stir plate later.

For me, I love doing the starter approx. 4-5 days prior to brewday, let it go for at least 2 days(on a Stir plate) then put it in the fridge to decant. The day of the brew I pull it out and let it naturally warm up to pitching temps. Then just decant and pitch.

Eastside

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Do you use an airlock on your starter when doing it like this or do just over with a piece of sterilized aluminum foil?

Korben said:

Do you use an airlock on your starter when doing it like this or do just over with a piece of sterilized aluminum foil?

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Both have been done and done successfully. From what I have read others say, aluminum foil can actually be a benefit because when you shake the starter you want more oxygen to hit the starter.

I use a rubber stopper and airlock. I'm fanatical about posible wild yeasties in he air. Personal preference.

Korben said:

Any suggestion on a brew that would benefit from this Liquid Yeast?

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This handy chart might help.

Korben said:

Do you use an airlock on your starter when doing it like this or do just over with a piece of sterilized aluminum foil?

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+1 Foil works great.

Rhoobarb said:

I use a rubber stopper and airlock. I'm fanatical about posible wild yeasties in he air. Personal preference.

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Louis Pasteur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At least one of those bottles still exists in a museum somewhere and is not contaminated.

Yeast can't fly (neither can bacteria). If you can get the top covered with aluminum foil without introducing contamination the starter will stay uncontaminated unless it is in an extraordinarily drafty location.

Ok, this may be a dumb question but.... with the exception of cost being more is there any disadvantage to just pitching two vials of white labs yeast instead of making a starter?

I don't think so, but cost firgures into my equation towards the top.