Best way to run electrical

I just moved into a new home and am moving my electric brew stand with me. I live in CO and want to brew outside so I am going to have new breaker(s) put into my panel (200 Amp Service) and all weather plugs put in. I had an electrician come over and is quoting me a price. I just want to make sure I'm going the right route.

My System:
2 5500W Electric elements (HLT and BK)
2 Pumps (1 LG and one March)

I was thinking I wanted him to put in a spa panel and a 60 amp plug for the 2 elements. Then I would run a separate 110 circuit for the pumps. I would distribute the 220 with a distribution block like the pol.

He pushed me towards 2 30 Amp GFCI breakers with separate plugs.

I am thinking the electricians route is going to cost me a lot more money as 30 amp gfci breakers are about as much as the spa panel. Does 2 separate breakers offer any more protection? The gfci will trip if one of the elements get's interrupted right?

Any advice would be very much appreciated, I just don't want to pay for something I don't need.

Thanks in advance!!!

I'd ask for the 60A circuit, if for no reason other than the fact that building a power cord to run from the outlet to your control panel is pretty pricey. It's probably cheaper to build one cable that can handle 60A rather than two cables that can handle 30A.

Plus, you'll need to distribute two separate circuits instead of one inside the control panel. Cost went up there, too.

Two separate breakers does not offer you any more protection. It just offers you some separation. Meaning, if one circuit sees a ground fault, that breaker will trip, but the other stays running. Not sure if that would actually be handy. If I ever trip a breaker I want EVERYTHING to shut down because I will absolutely not proceed with anything until I have figured out and fixed whatever issue caused the breaker to trip.

Oh... and your electrician will probably charge you more to install two circuits than he would to install one. more parts, more labor, more money for him.

When I had an electrician put 240V in my garage, I didn't tell him what I was doing with it up front. I just told him what I wanted done.

Thanks for the quick response!

So do they make plugs that are rated for 60 amps, or do you run multiple 30 amp plugs from the spa panel? By the way, I already have a distribution block so that isn't a concern.

Walker said:

I'd ask for the 60A circuit, if for no reason other than the fact that building a power cord to run from the outlet to your control panel is pretty pricey. It's probably cheaper to build one cable that can handle 60A rather than two cables that can handle 30A.

Plus, you'll need to distribute two separate circuits instead of one inside the control panel. Cost went up there, too.

Two separate breakers does not offer you any more protection. It just offers you some separation. Meaning, if one circuit sees a ground fault, that breaker will trip, but the other stays running. Not sure if that would actually be handy. If I ever trip a breaker I want EVERYTHING to shut down because I will absolutely not proceed with anything until I have figured out and fixed whatever issue caused the breaker to trip.

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Walker said:

When I had an electrician put 240V in my garage, I didn't tell him what I was doing with it up front. I just told him what I wanted done.

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ditto.........

aarondrich said:

Thanks for the quick response!

So do they make plugs that are rated for 60 amps, or do you run multiple 30 amp plugs from the spa panel? By the way, I already have a distribution block so that isn't a concern.

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Hmmmm... I don't know. 50A plugs and receptacles are easy to come by, but I have not seen 60A (but then again, I wasn't looking for them either.)

You can't run multiple 30A plugs from the spa panel. The plug/receptacle has to be rated for the amps that can come through the breaker they are attached to for safety (and building code) reasons.

Shop around and see what you find.

My personal opinion is that you'll save yourself some hassle (and maybe money) by dropping the HLT element down in wattage so that your whole system fits into a 50A envelope. 5500W is a lot of power for just heating water to temps under 180*F, isn't it?

I have 5500W in my BK, and at full blast it will make the whole brew stand jiggle from the sloshing and fairly violent violent boil of 7gallons of wort.

I think 50A is more standard for spa panels. Your Stove outlet is 50A as well. I did a 50A gfi breaker to a 50A wall plug then 4 wire SO to the control panel 30A outlet from control panel to element everything is fused accordingly and sufficiently grounded. Same thing as most people do around this forum.

60A is becoming more and more popular for SPAs. I've even saw some 70A spa panels when I was shopping for parts for my rig.

The 11kW (plus the pumps) that the OP wants to use might force him to use multiple breakers and cords feeding his panel if he can't find 60A plugs and receptacles. I've just been looking and cannot find them. Cord, yes. Plugs and receptacles, no.


Dropping down to 9kW (5500 in BK, 3500 in HLT) gets you back to a range where a single 50A circuit will work (and 50A spa panels are available).

aarondrich said:

Thanks for the quick response!

So do they make plugs that are rated for 60 amps, or do you run multiple 30 amp plugs from the spa panel? By the way, I already have a distribution block so that isn't a concern.

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Price and lack of availability goes up dramatically when you go above 50amps (cord, plugs, receptacles).
Do you NEED to run the BK & HLT at the same time?
Do you NEED a 5500watt element in the HLT (would 4500 get'er done)?

I started with the plan of a 60amp system and found a way to make it work on 50...

Walker said:

When I had an electrician put 240V in my garage, I didn't tell him what I was doing with it up front. I just told him what I wanted done.

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Okay...I said I wasn't really interested in putting 240V in my garage, but just so I can justify it, what does it typically cost to have an electrician put it in? Just ballpark is okay.

I spent about $110, but I already had the breaker and the receptacle. He just provided the romex wire for inside the wall and the labor.

My outlet is less than 3 feet from my subpanel, too, so $10 of that $110 was for the wire.

I was *this close* to doing the work myself, but SWMBO talked me out of it.

BadgerBrewer said:

Okay...I said I wasn't really interested in putting 240V in my garage, but just so I can justify it, what does it typically cost to have an electrician put it in? Just ballpark is okay.

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I've purchased all the materials, and will be doing the wiring myself. I have an electrician who will inspect my work and install the conduit and breaker to the house main panel for $150. I'm not sure if that is a good deal, but I'm willing to pay to ensure my work is safe and I don't get killed at the main panel...

erik said:

I've purchased all the materials, and will be doing the wiring myself. I have an electrician who will inspect my work and install the conduit and breaker to the house main panel for $150. I'm not sure if that is a good deal, but I'm willing to pay to ensure my work is safe and I don't get killed at the main panel...

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Here's the little fact that SWMBO used to convince me to not do the work myself.

My homeowners insurance will not pay for any damages AT ALL that are caused by electrical work that was completed by someone with out a valid electrician's license.

Paying $100 to a licenced electrician seemed like money well spent when looked at from that point of view.

My HLT has a HERMS coil and I was thinking that a larger element would offer faster step times. With that being said a HERMS isn't great for stepping up temps.

So you are using a 60 Amp Spa panel with 50 Amp plugs then you simply just keep the Amps below 60?

aarondrich said:

So you are using a 60 Amp Spa panel with 50 Amp plugs then you simply just keep the Amps below 60?

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At risk of sounding like a broken record.... a 50A plug driven by a 60A breaker is (a) a fire hazard and (b) violation of building code if it is wired to your house.

Breakers are there to protect equipment when things DON'T go as expected, so whatever load you are EXPECTING to pull is kind of irrelevant.

If you get a short in your system and start pulling more than 50A through the 50A receptacle, it can melt and/or burst into flames. A proper breaker would trip at the 50A mark and prevent this from happening. A 60A breaker might trip a little too late to save your equipment (or your house).

Do not be cavalier with electricity, especially at levels like 240V and 50+ amps. Be VERY respectful and VERY careful.

Walker said:

At risk of sounding like a broken record.... a 50A plug driven by a 60A breaker is (a) a fire hazard and (b) violation of building code if it is wired to your house.

Breakers are there to protect equipment when things DON'T go as expected, so whatever load you are EXPECTING to pull is kind of irrelevant.

If you get a short in your system and start pulling more than 50A through the 50A receptacle, it can melt and/or burst into flames. A proper breaker would trip at the 50A mark and prevent this from happening. A 60A breaker might trip a little too late to save your equipment (or your house).

Do not be cavalier with electricity, especially at levels like 240V and 50+ amps. Be VERY respectful and VERY careful.

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I agree 100%.
You can however, install a standard 50amp breaker in your panel and feed a 60amp GFCI SPA panel. The 50amp breaker will provide overcurrent protection and the 60amp will provide GFCI protection. This of course would only make sense if you already had a 60amp GFCI SPA disconnect. 50amp breakers are fairly inexpensive.

I'm just trying to learn here, so would this be an option?

Since you could install a 50 Amp breaker in a 60 Amp Spa Panel to use the 50 Amp plugs...

If I installed a 60 amp Spa Panel, then could i put two standard 30 Amp breakers in the panel and run two separate lines from there? I could avoid the cost of buying expensive 60 Amp plugs.

Thanks again

Ohio-Ed said:

I agree 100%.
You can however, install a standard 50amp breaker in your panel and feed a 60amp GFCI SPA panel. The 50amp breaker will provide overcurrent protection and the 60amp will provide GFCI protection. This of course would only make sense if you already had a 60amp GFCI SPA disconnect. 50amp breakers are fairly inexpensive.

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aarondrich said:

I'm just trying to learn here, so would this be an option?

Since you could install a 50 Amp breaker in a 60 Amp Spa Panel to use the 50 Amp plugs...

If I installed a 60 amp Spa Panel, then could i put two standard 30 Amp breakers in the panel and run two separate lines from there? I could avoid the cost of buying expensive 60 Amp plugs.

Thanks again

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Yes, you could do that. It'll still be more expensive that dropping down the HLT element power and using a single 50A plug to deive your rig, but if you are dead set on 5500W in the HLT, then two 30A breakers in a 60A spa panel and multiple cords feeding your system will work.

60 amp 4 wire plugs:
http://www.aplussupply.com/ps/twist/pin60.htm

Ouch on the cost. You might find some on mil-spec surplus for cheaper.

B

bad coffee said:

60 amp 4 wire plugs:
http://www.aplussupply.com/ps/twist/pin60.htm

Ouch on the cost. You might find some on mil-spec surplus for cheaper.

B

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Holy cow. One plug and receptacle costs as much as my entire system!

Just as a reference (and agreement of 5500 on a HLT being way overkill) I did water tests on my new 120V 1500W (12.5A) EHLT last night. Rose 96.5°F (from 74.5 - 171) in 1hr 3 minutes with 6G of water. I know that may be slow, but 5500 would be ridiculous. I'm planning on changing it out for a 2000W eventually and I believe, from other's posts here, I should get from tap temps to 170-180 in ~40 minutes with 7-8 Gallons.

I understand Overkill is fun sometimes, but only if price is no object.

I said this in an earlier post, but I'm also using the HLT as a HERMS chamber. I'm also doing 10 gallon batches. My hope was to be able to get somewhat decent step speeds by using an insulated mash tun and a big element.

I agree that if heating water was my only concern it doesn't make sense.

IrregularPulse said:

Just as a reference (and agreement of 5500 on a HLT being way overkill) I did water tests on my new 120V 1500W (12.5A) EHLT last night. Rose 96.5°F (from 74.5 - 171) in 1hr 3 minutes with 6G of water. I know that may be slow, but 5500 would be ridiculous. I'm planning on changing it out for a 2000W eventually and I believe, from other's posts here, I should get from tap temps to 170-180 in ~40 minutes with 7-8 Gallons.

I understand Overkill is fun sometimes, but only if price is no object.

Click to expand...

aarondrich said:

I said this in an earlier post, but I'm also using the HLT as a HERMS chamber. I'm also doing 10 gallon batches. My hope was to be able to get somewhat decent step speeds by using an insulated mash tun and a big element.

I agree that if heating water was my only concern it doesn't make sense.

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But will you be running the BK and HLT at the same time? I have 5500watt elements in both my BK and HLT, I just don't run them at the same time. I have a 1500watt RIMs heater for maintaining mash temps and for mashout.

Personally, I wouldn't want two separate lines supplying my rig. I considered it, but I know, I'd look down, see a plug laying on the floor, assume all safe, and get the s&*t knocked out of me.

A lot of brewers are getting it done with 50amps (many with 30amps)... I think you gotta ask yourself do ya really need 60?

Ohio-Ed,
You've got me convinced, I'm going with 50 Amp. The only thing running two elements at the same time will do is speed up a second batch. Not a very likely thing for me to do. I think this seems like the most economical solution.

Thanks for all the input!!!

I have 50 amps and i went the 3500w HLT + 5500w BK route. I do 10 gallon batches.

I have a HERMs setup and im not going to lie the 3500w can be a little slow. the 5500w is money in the BK. I love it. I do run mine at the same time tho. Its nice to start heating up the runnings from my grains before I am done with the mash all together. I think I would sacrifice my 5500w HLT for the ability to run both at the same time.

my $.02.

If you dont like the 3500w you can reprogram and move up to 5500w?

It doesnt cost too much to make a new heat stick really. $35 ish.