Preceding Recipe for Yeast Cake for RIS

Confusing title, eh? Basically, I know that when I brew my 08-08-08 RIS, I want to pitch it on a yeast cake, instead of worrying about a starter.

I think I'm gonna use WLP051 California Ale V Yeast for the RIS yeast. (I have it on hand) ... So, I need to brew something first, with this yeast, to MAKE the yeast cake.

My question is, what recipes would leave the character of the WLP051 most unchanged for its journey to RIS-hood? -OR- Which recipes would create a "impure" yeast cake that would be most suited to a big RIS?

My current thoughts are:

• Something with some peated malt in it, so that the RIS picks up just a HINT of smoky bite - maybe a Peated Porter at about 1.060, which should make a good ol' yeast cake for a 1.088 RIS
• Maybe just a plain Brown Porter like in Orfy's recipes
• A rye beer, as I have plenty of Rye Malt on hand
• A fairly plain Bitter, simple, mostly 2-row, perhaps some dextrine, and some Goldings hops.... other grain addition suggestions?
• A weaker stout? Suggestions here?

Am I completely in left field, or am I heading in the right direction? WWYD if it were your beer?

That's a good question. I am in no way qualified to answer it, but I can tell you what I plan to do. I was thinking of pitching to the yeast cake (WLP001) from a pale ale. I doubt that there would be any noticeable flavor issues, at least none that my underdeveloped palate could discern.

I would hesitate to pitch onto a cake, which is more than likely overpitching. You can, however, save a portion of the cake, unwashed, and use that.

I would go for something 1.050 and below, a Pale or Bitter would be good. Anything higher and those are some mighty stressed yeast to chug through 1.088.

I am lost - I did not know that overpitching was a concern. I've heard of people racking new batches on top of untouched, non-cleaned, non-sanitized yeast cakes numerous times. Is this really bad practice? Not callin' ya a liar by any means, I've just never heard this info before....

Would it be better to perhaps pseudo-wash the yeast (e.g. add sterile water, swirl, let settle 20 minutes, rack a large amount into a single container, but instead of divvying up between jars for storage, pitch the newly washed yeast back in)?

Or should I perhaps bite the bullet and use this as an opportunity to make a proper starter? (Still haven't built a stirplate, and dont have access to one. Want to build one, haven't had time or funds yet.)

EDIT: Read up a bit on overpitching, I think if I stick to a fairly plain beer, the cake should be OK, but I might go ahead and scoop about half out, and wash it gently before repitching. Either way, over-hoppy "starter" beer = bad. Stick to less hops.

I am a little concerned about ferment temp. If you have a temperature controller for your primary guess you'll be OK. I pitched the White labs WLP001 in about a quart of starter and my fermenter wall hit probably 82-84dF for a little while.

It has settled down and been running 72-74°F for eleven days now. I do not have a temp controller. I suspect this ticking along slowly is a good thing. With a big enough pitch I wonder how high my temp would have gone...

Poindexter said:

I am a little concerned about ferment temp. If you have a temperature controller for your primary guess you'll be OK. I pitched the White labs WLP001 in about a quart of starter and my fermenter wall hit probably 82-84dF for a little while.

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No temp control. However, my basement people move out on the 1st, and at that time, we're turning the thermostat down to about 63. My house stays pretty cold around now. Think that'd be enough "control"? It's in a basement against an outside wall.

chriso said:

No temp control. However, my basement people move out on the 1st, and at that time, we're turning the thermostat down to about 63. My house stays pretty cold around now. Think that'd be enough "control"? It's in a basement against an outside wall.

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I am not the one to ask, but I have read enough threads to know that if you want knob slobbered in a swap you need temp control on your primary. My "place" is at 69° with the 72-74° fermeter.

Now that I think about it, overpitching with a 1.088 probably isn't as big a concern as it would be with other, lower-grav beers. People pitch onto whole cakes all the time, but it's usually because they're just lazy.

However, unless you trust yourself immensely, there's still no need to actually "wash" anything. All the flavours from an RIS are going to drown out whatever was there previously. I still may decant some of the cake, though.

And yeah, I didn't think about temp control. You'll want that first brew to hold steady in the mid-60s or so to provide a clean flavour profile and to keep them unstressed.

Poindexter said:

I am not the one to ask, but I have read enough threads to know that if you want knob slobbered in a swap you need temp control on your primary.

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Yeah!!! That's what I want!!!! :rockin:

Fwiw I brewed an ale with a boat load of peat smoked malt then used that cake for another, much lighter beer w/out any prep...none of the peat or other roast flavors from the prior beer came though on the second beer. YMMV.

brewt00l said:

Fwiw I brewed an ale with a boat load of peat smoked malt then used that cake for another, much lighter beer w/out any prep...none of the peat or other roast flavors from the prior beer came though on the second beer. YMMV.

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Cool. I bought 4 lbs of peated malt, and was only gonna use 1/2 lb of it. I'm an idjit. I think this calls for some kind of peated pale ale? Is that too weird?

chriso said:

Cool. I bought 4 lbs of peated malt, and was only gonna use 1/2 lb of it. I'm an idjit. I think this calls for some kind of peated pale ale? Is that too weird?

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If you haven't brewed with peated before, 4 lbs of peated malt might last you a loooooong time...some folks really dislike the flavor it imparts. Depending on how fresh it is, I would definitely consider using it sparingly depending on what you are brewing and want the end result flavors to be. What's your intended recipe?

Another FWIW: starters are really easy to make and definitely result in "cleaner" ferments in general when using liquid yeast (in lieu of a cake which is basically just a big ole starter). My starter equipment consists of a 3L soda bottle, stopper and airlock.

brewt00l said:

If you haven't brewed with peated before, 4 lbs of peated malt might last you a loooooong time...some folks really dislike the flavor it imparts. Depending on how fresh it is, I would definitely consider using it sparingly depending on what you are brewing and want the end result flavors to be. What's your intended recipe?

Another FWIW: starters are really easy to make and definitely result in "cleaner" ferments in general when using liquid yeast (in lieu of a cake which is basically just a big ole starter). My starter equipment consists of a 3L soda bottle, stopper and airlock.

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Yeah.... I've been poking at recipes while having my morning coffee... most are exclusively Scottish Strong Ales, and none use more than 1/4 lb, most more like 1/8 lb. Guess I'm ... uh... stocked up?

How do you give it "clean" wort? Do you mash some 2-row or do you buy DME? I've read a handful of articles on making starters, but all of them just say to add your 1.040 wort. They don't tell you where to get it. ARGH.

Maybe I should just build a stir plate. That's starting to sound a lot easier. Dag nabbit.

chriso said:

Yeah.... I've been poking at recipes while having my morning coffee... most are exclusively Scottish Strong Ales, and none use more than 1/4 lb, most more like 1/8 lb. Guess I'm ... uh... stocked up?

How do you give it "clean" wort? Do you mash some 2-row or do you buy DME? I've read a handful of articles on making starters, but all of them just say to add your 1.040 wort. They don't tell you where to get it. ARGH.

Maybe I should just build a stir plate. That's starting to sound a lot easier. Dag nabbit.

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http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html
http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/startermadeeasy.php
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=6970
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Starter#Yeast_Starter



easy cheesy....
boil water
mix Xtra/light dme
cool
pour in vessel, pitch yeast
cover
swirl occasionally
build to desired volume

Sorry. The fact that it involves extract has kept me runnin' scared thus far. I will clear my mind of biases and read through all this again. I do recognize at least two of these pages - clearly it just didn't sink in the first time.

Starting to get OT here, but it's really interesting - I have found that if I'm reading how-to's involving equipment, I'm just fine. If it involves yeast, though, I get panicky and just kind of "shut down" while reading.... Lose my place, skim the rest of the article, then go stare at someone's S/S conical for a while....

I don't know why I'm so afraid of my yeast. I need to embrace my yeast. I think it's my timeless fear of f***ing everything up. You can tell I never took science classes though... Basic things like "boil then cool water" are difficult because I want to know HOW boiled I should boil it, and how cool I should cool it, and over how long, and blah blah.... I don't even know what "slants" are... and I've read about 8 different threads that all recommend them. I barely made it through the Yeast Washing For Dummies sticky. I did that on my last batch. Got 3 jars. Now I don't know what to do with them, because I know you can't pitch cold yeast, but don't know how to warm it up.

God I'm weird.

Joe Dragon said:

“God I’m weird”

I’m with ya. I get all twitchy when it comes to yeast. I think it’s the fear of screwing up an entire batch of beer by pitching bad yeast. Bernie has the best yeast washing thread IMO. My local home brew guy says to not dump on the entire yeast cake. He insists you throw away half and use the rest. I’ve done boff and had no problem- except for a volcanic blow-off.

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I was the same way when I first started brewing. Now I have like 15 or so batches under my belt, all but five of them with liquid yeast, and nothings been screwed up so far. Hell, I used to put ice in my fermenter to cool my wort.

Look it, all I've done is follow the directions on the back of the Wyeast smack packs. I boil some Extra Light DME in some water, cool it, pour it into a sanitized 1/2 gallon growler, cover it with sanitized foil and let it roll for 24 to 48 hours (usually about 36). That's enough to get the yeast count up for a normal batch (under 1.065). For anything over that, I double the amount of DME and water and do the same thing. I don't step it up, because the directions don't say its needed. I just make a half gallon starter, and let it roll for 2 to 3 days. Hell, I've made big starters and split them in "half" for two batches.

Any rate, I digress. The above info may not be the best thing to do for your "yeasties", but I don't reuse yeast all that often. The most I do, is like I said, make a big starter and split it, or, if I'm doing a couple wheat brews, I'll make a big starter and save some in the fridge.

I digress, again. My point is, don't fret too much about your yeasties. if you're going to pitch onto a yeast cake of a beer that's less than 1.060, or in that range, I'm sure you'll be fine. RDWHAHB - Its the most true, all encompassing statement in this hobby.

Cheers,