E-Herms Build 50 amp

I have a MT, BK, and HLT on order from Stout Tanks and they are due in May. I am trying to get a jump start on the control panel build because once the kettles get here... I want to brew!

I will be building a 6'L x 2.5'D x 2'H wood brew stand this weekend. It's similar to Kal's and a few others but I will be running the boards along the 6' length. I am going with 1x6 for the top and 1x4 for the bottom shelf.

I have a bunch of control panel stuff on order (16x16x8 panel, outlets, plugs, extension cord, elements, etc.) and hope to order the PID's, contactors, timers, breakers, DIN terminal blocks, lights, switches, etc. within a few days.

I'm shooting for a 50-amp control panel so I can run back-to-back batches and/or just have the capability of heating up extra water. Plus, I like monsterous wire! I am leaning towards illuminated LED pushbutton switches to eliminate clutter and extra holes on the panel. I shooting for all DIN mounted components. I have yet to figure out which safe start interlock relay & socket I want.

Here is my first stab at a wiring diagram (pretty much copied P-J's and a few others) along with a couple of control panel layout options.

Thanks to a lot of folks on here for the inspiration, ideas, and help. Any feedback on the diagram and panel would be very much appreciated!

Chris

After looking at my post I hope people can see the fuzzy wiring diagram and control panel layout. I'm new to including attachments so any input on that would be very helpful. My originals are crystal clear.

I am hoping to order the PID's, contactors, switches, SSR's, indicator lights, RTD's, etc. over the weekend. Does anyone see anything that looks out of whack on the wiring diagram or control panel layout(s)? Thanks for any help.

It's too small - can't read it.

alien said:

It's too small - can't read it.

Click to expand...

What's the best way to include a larger diagram? I created it on 11x17. Thanks.

Hopefully this wiring diagram is more legible.

View attachment Wiring Diagram.pdf

You seem to have given this quite a lot of thought.

I really don't like the E-stop to ground. I know that P-J recommends this but safer than tripping the GFCI would be to have the E-stop cutting the 63A contactor coil.

I suggest 1A fast blow fuses to protect the PIDs. Otherwise if there is a surge or fault they might blow up before the 16 A breaker trips. The 25A breaker and contactor are right on the limit for the 5500W element, I would want a margin. Maybe think about a switch to cut the buzzer. I think you can get away with 10 AWG ground wire.

An Auber PID just to monitor mash temp is a bit rich for my blood.

alien said:

You seem to have given this quite a lot of thought.

I really don't like the E-stop to ground. I know that P-J recommends this but safer than tripping the GFCI would be to have the E-stop cutting the 63A contactor coil.

I suggest 1A fast blow fuses to protect the PIDs. Otherwise if there is a surge or fault they might blow up before the 16 A breaker trips. The 25A breaker and contactor are right on the limit for the 5500W element, I would want a margin. Maybe think about a switch to cut the buzzer. I think you can get away with 10 AWG ground wire.

An Auber PID just to monitor mash temp is a bit rich for my blood.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your input. Any wiring tips on your e-stop / main contactor suggestion? Good suggestion on the 1a fuses in front of the PID's. I will hunt around for a higher amp breaker and contactor for at least the 5500w element. It's just hard to beat ebrewsupply's 25a contactor prices.

I figured the alarm pushbutton switches would be used to turn off the buzzer since these buttons also enable it.

The extension cord coming into the panel will be a 6/3 + 8/1 so I definitely do not need a 6 ga ground in the panel. Thanks for catching that.

I've gone back and forth on the MT PID and can't make up my mind. I think it would be slightly useful and it doesn't cost too much to add. I'll mull over it some more.

Thanks again for your help.

Chris

Check your diagram and follow the power being delivered to the Boil element. Line 1 comes from the 25A breaker on the right. Line 2 comes from the 25A breaker on the left.

Same problem with the HLT set up.

BTW: I see no problem at all with the use of a 25A beaker providing power to the 5500W element. The current draw will be 23A.

P-J said:

Check your diagram and follow the power being delivered to the Boil element. Line 1 comes from the 25A breaker on the right. Line 2 comes from the 25A breaker on the left.

Same problem with the HLT set up.

BTW: I see no problem at all with the use of a 25A beaker providing power to the 5500W element. The current draw will be 23A.

Click to expand...

Good catch on the lines being crossed - thanks!

Chris

I forgot to ask - is there a reason that the 'element on' indicator lights cannot be hooked up to just one hot leg instead of both? I was hoping to stick with automation direct for all of the pushbuttons and lights but I do not see a 240v LED indicator light on their website. Is it that important to see that both hot legs are active?

cheez said:

I forgot to ask - is there a reason that the 'element on' indicator lights cannot be hooked up to just one hot leg instead of both? I was hoping to stick with automation direct for all of the pushbuttons and lights but I do not see a 240v LED indicator light on their website. Is it that important to see that both hot legs are active?

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You could. If powered from Line-1 it will be on whenever the contactor is energized. If powered from Line-2 it will turn on when the associated SSR is conducting.

I would suggest having the E-stop on the hot wire to the 63A contractor between the safe start and the 120V lamp. If you hit the E-stop it will cut the power to the coil and remove power to the hot wires out of the contactor.

alien said:

I would suggest having the E-stop on the hot wire to the 63A contractor between the safe start and the 120V lamp. If you hit the E-stop it will cut the power to the coil and remove power to the hot wires out of the contactor.

Click to expand...

That makes sense. I understand tripping the GFCI and I like the idea of all power being shut off to the panel but I think it is a no-no to purposely send current through a ground wire. I think the e-stop is an "extra" anyway and I like the idea and feel comfortable with it before the main contactor. Thanks for your help.

Chris

I picked up all of the wires and the 6/3 extension cord and 16x16x8 panel were delivered today. This panel is a lot bigger in person! I also got a second coat of polyurethane on the brew stand. Good day! I plan on placing an order with Aubers, automationdirect, McMaster, and ebrewsupply in the next couple of days. I'm trying to make sure I order everthing I need one time around though I know that's a pipe dream. I hope to finish the brew stand and start marking up hole locations on the panel this weekend.

I finished the brew stand yesterday - will post pictures tonight. Time to start drilling on the control panel.

I finished the brew stand today. It's more or less like Kal's and a few others; however, I made a few changes:
1) Used 1x6 for the top and 1x4 for the bottom shelf and ran them with the length of the table;
2) Recessed the bolts;
3) Overhung the shelf boards around the perimeter by an inch;
4) Used 4x4 posts instead of two 2x4's; and
4) Extended the top and bottom runs of horizontal 2x6 and 2x4 past the end pieces so you can't see the end grain of the end pieces. Hopefully this makes sense. Basically, when standing in front of the table there are no visible end grains.

I also cut the holes out of the control panel for the receptacles. This week I'll secure the cable plate at the top and start cutting out the front panel. Good times!

Great job on the brew stand. It looks fantastic and really solid.

alien said:

Great job on the brew stand. It looks fantastic and really solid.

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Thanks! It's amazing what a few coats of stain/poly will hide

cheez said:

Thanks! It's amazing what a few coats of stain/poly will hide

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I wish I was that handy with wood. What I do needs to be hidden under primer, caulk, and topcoat.

alien said:

I wish I was that handy with wood. What I do needs to be hidden under primer, caulk, and topcoat.

Click to expand...

I think I have gained a little patience as I get older which seems to help. Having the right tools and being an anal engineer might help as well Although, the engineer part sure is a pain in my butt sometimes!

I really need some help with this. I have illuminated push-buttons from automationdirect for all my switches. I am confused on how to wire them up to trigger a single buzzer/light. I've attached automationdirect's wiring diagram and added some hot and neutral lines as to how I thought it should be wired up. However, I'm afraid that if one switched is turned on while the other's are off, the 'on' switch would be sending power over to the other switches' indicators lights, lighting them up. Or, is the neutral in each switch somehow controlled strictly by that switch? I just don't want one switch turned on and have all of the other switches lights turn on even though those switches are turned off. I hope that makes sense. Thanks for any help.



View attachment alarm switch wiring.pdf

cheez said:

I really need some help with this. I have illuminated push-buttons from automationdirect for all my switches.
...
...

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I'm really confused with your wiring diagram as I do not understand what you are trying to show. Please help me help you. Your diagram is not even near complete and also does not show what you are controlling.

I'm here to help and make it right.

P-J

P-J said:

I'm really confused with your wiring diagram as I do not understand what you are trying to show. Please help me help you. Your diagram is not even near complete and also does not show what you are controlling.

I'm here to help and make it right.

P-J

Click to expand...

After each timer and PID, I have a switch to turn on/off an alarm buzzer/light (see my wiring diagram in previous posts). So, when a timer goes off, or a PID says I have reached a preset temp, or whatever, and the switch is turned on, it will send a signal to the buzzer. The signal from the timers and PID's is sent to #4 on the switch. When the switch is closed, it sends power to x1 (the LED) and eventually to the buzzer. I have conerns that sending this power to the next switch in line will trigger that next switch's LED to come on even if that next switch is turned off. x2, I believe, goes to common neutral. The #1 and 2 will be hooked up to my safe start relay.

cheez,

Your diagram (at the beginning of this thread) is so small that I cannot cypher it. Then your drawing in post #22 is something that I cannot follow.

Sorry about that, but without info I'm not able to help.

I hope you get it figured out and are able to solve your issues.

Wishing you the best.

P-J

I attached a pdf file a couple of posts up that should be legible. There's also a pdf of my wiring diagram in earlier posts that I will try to dig up.

EDIT: Post #6 has a clickable PDF of my original wiring diagram and post #22 above has a clickable PDF of the switch wiring diagram.

Here's the latest overall (rough) wiring diagram and the wiring diagram for the automation direct illuminated push-button switches.

Again, I'm hoping that all of these "alarm" switches can be connected to a single buzzer. After drawing out the switch wiring diagram, I'm afraid that when any switch is turned on it will light up the LED's of the other switches, even if they are off. I'm hoping that these switches somehow switch off the neutral but I cannot find any information on that. I was hoping to use these switches as they match the other switches (pump and element) that I have. Worse case, I guess I could not connect the illuminated feature or use non-illuminated switches.

View attachment alarm switch wiring.pdf

View attachment Wiring Diagram 3.pdf

to your concern of lighting up all the lights together, as you show the wiring, that's exactly what will happen. you'll need to provide isolation between the segments via diodes, assuming it's 5-12VDC.

Also, will need a bit more of the wiring for the alarm switch to help you figure out where to put them.

The way you have it wired, the switches will only light up when the alarm is triggered (the only hot wire going to the light is dependent on the PID). And yes, all of the lights will come on together.

Do you have room to add another NO contact block to each switch? Then you could have the hot come into that block and illuminate the LED when the switch is on. I hacked up your drawing (sorry for the crappy quality). The hot would come into #3. When the button is pushed, power will go from #4 to X1 (light turns on) and to the PID alarm. When the PID alarm is triggered, power is sent to #6. With the switch closed, power would go from #5 to the buzzer.

I think this will work but will leave it up to the experts for verification. I'm guessing someone has had this same issue before.

Shockerengr said:

to your concern of lighting up all the lights together, as you show the wiring, that's exactly what will happen. you'll need to provide isolation between the segments via diodes, assuming it's 5-12VDC.

Also, will need a bit more of the wiring for the alarm switch to help you figure out where to put them.

Click to expand...

The alarm switches are the 5 green circles shown above the PID's and timers in the main wiring diagram - they are labeled ast "120v Illum. Switch". I was hoping to have visual confirmation, via the "illuminated" part of the switch, that the alarm switch is actually on or off. I could easily solve this by not illuminating these switches or by using non-illuminated switches but there has got to be a way to make this work.

summerofgeorge said:

The way you have it wired, the switches will only light up when the alarm is triggered (the only hot wire going to the light is dependent on the PID). And yes, all of the lights will come on together.

Do you have room to add another NO contact block to each switch? Then you could have the hot come into that block and illuminate the LED when the switch is on. I hacked up your drawing (sorry for the crappy quality). The hot would come into #3. When the button is pushed, power will go from #4 to X1 (light turns on) and to the PID alarm. When the PID alarm is triggered, power is sent to #6. With the switch closed, power would go from #5 to the buzzer.

I think this will work but will leave it up to the experts for verification. I'm guessing someone has had this same issue before.

Click to expand...

It looks like you are using the switch to also power on/off the PID's/Timer's, is that correct? If so, that's not what I was after. If not, I'm still confused. I was going to wire the PID's/Timer's so they are on after turning the main power key switch on. The illuminated push-button alarm switches are just for turning on/off the ability of sending its respective signal to the buzzer. I love brain twisters

You might be on to something though with adding additional NO (or NC??) contacts. These automationdirect switches allow stacking a total of 3 NO and 3 NC contacts per switch. I will look into other contact configurations. I appreciate your help on this!

cheez said:

It looks like you are using the switch to also power on/off the PID's/Timer's, is that correct? If so, that's not what I was after. If not, I'm still confused. I was going to wire the PID's/Timer's so they are on after turning the main power key switch on. The illuminated push-button alarm switches are just for turning on/off the ability of sending its respective signal to the buzzer. I love brain twisters

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I wasn't using the switch to power on/off the PID's/Timers. It was just to supply power to the alarm. Are you using Auber PIDs/Timers? Below is from Kal's wiring diagram for the Auber alarms. The PID power comes in to terminal #9 and can be wired to the main power switch. The alarm power comes in to terminal #13. I was running the power from the switches to #13. One issue with this is that you would only be able to set the alarm when the switch is on (as in you couldn't just use the PID alarm indicator without the buzzer going off). I wasn't thinking about this when I first responded. It might make more sense to wire #13 directly to the hot bus like Kal. The PID alarm would function independently of the switch. Then when the switch is closed, the buzzer would sound when the alarm condition is met.

If you went this route, your buzzer wiring would essentially match Kal's. You'd just have another NO block on each switch that turns the light on when closed. The input would come from the hot bus.

summerofgeorge said:

I wasn't using the switch to power on/off the PID's/Timers. It was just to supply power to the alarm. Are you using Auber PIDs/Timers? Below is from Kal's wiring diagram for the Auber alarms. The PID power comes in to terminal #9 and can be wired to the main power switch. The alarm power comes in to terminal #13. I was running the power from the switches to #13. One issue with this is that you would only be able to set the alarm when the switch is on (as in you couldn't just use the PID alarm indicator without the buzzer going off). I wasn't thinking about this when I first responded. It might make more sense to wire #13 directly to the hot bus like Kal. The PID alarm would function independently of the switch. Then when the switch is closed, the buzzer would sound when the alarm condition is met.

If you went this route, your buzzer wiring would essentially match Kal's. You'd just have another NO block on each switch that turns the light on when closed. The input would come from the hot bus.

Click to expand...

I think you nailed it with setting it up like Kal's but having a separate hot lead sending power to an additional NO contact block on each switch. I think it could be a single hot lead jumpered between the same leg of each NO contact block. I'll put together an updated wiring diagram for this tomorrow. Thanks a ton for your help!

summerofgeorge said:

One issue with this is that you would only be able to set the alarm when the switch is on (as in you couldn't just use the PID alarm indicator without the buzzer going off).

Click to expand...

One more thought on this. I don't know that my above statement is correct. Do you need power going to #13 for the alarm indicator on the PID to work? I'm thinking maybe not. The internal alarm might be powered by the main power and then the external alarm gets power from #13. If this is the case, it shouldn't matter if you switch the power to #13 or if you just run it from the main power. Hopefully this makes sense.

summerofgeorge said:

One more thought on this. I don't know that my above statement is correct. Do you need power going to #13 for the alarm indicator on the PID to work? I'm thinking maybe not. The internal alarm might be powered by the main power and then the external alarm gets power from #13. If this is the case, it shouldn't matter if you switch the power to #13 or if you just run it from the main power. Hopefully this makes sense.

Click to expand...

Based on the Auber wiring diagram for the 2342/2352, #13 gets the same hot in as #9 (the main power). #1 appears to send alarm power out. So, I think I will pull power from either #13 or #9 to feed the extra NO on each switch to light them up.

Does this wiring diagram make sense? If so, I will place a third order in 4 days from automation direct Thanks again.

View attachment alarm switch wiring.pdf

I went to order some additional NO contact blocks from automation direct and they are out of stock until the second week of May! I found a few on e-bay to at least get me started.

I have all of my switches, PID's, timers, lights, DIN stuff, etc. I'm going to start cutting out holes on the panel door this week and hopefully start on painting the control panel this weekend. I still need to figure out how I'm going to mount the panel to my stand so I can tap any holes in the back before I get too carried away.

Does anyone have any comments on the latest alarm switch diagram in my post above? It makes sense to me but that has gotten me in trouble before... Thanks!

I cut a few holes in the front panel today. The conduit punch is awesome and the dremel made quick work of the PID/timer cutouts. I still have three PID/timer cutouts left to do. The small holes in opposite corners were intended for a starting/end place for the jigsaw until I figured out I didn't have any metal blades. I'm thinking the dremel may have been a better bet anyway. This weekend will be securing the cable plate to the top and hopefully painting the panel.

Does anyone have any input on the alarm switch wiring diagram in post #35 above? I'm hoping next week will be the start of wiring! Thanks.

Just circling back on your updated alarm wiring. When a switch is turned on, the indicator light will come on. Then when the PID/timer alarm condition for the "on" switch is met, the alarm will sound. If this is what you're trying to accomplish, you should be good to go.

summerofgeorge said:

Just circling back on your updated alarm wiring. When a switch is turned on, the indicator light will come on. Then when the PID/timer alarm condition for the "on" switch is met, the alarm will sound. If this is what you're trying to accomplish, you should be good to go.

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Exactly what I want! Thanks again for your help. I put some primer on the panel today and should have it painted by the end of this week. This is too much fun

Looks great so far h