Big, big starter

Hey all,

I need to make a starter for a 1.6 bbl (51 gallon) batch of 1.055 ale and a similar size/gravity Kolsch.

I have a stir plate and a 10 liter pyrex to make the starter in.

I've seen mrmalty and know what Jamil's calculator recommends, but wanted to see what thoughts were here.

I was thinking of doing 9 liter starter, on the stir place, with 4 vials of White Labs (002 and 029 respectively for each starter).

Is there a way to calculate how much that will propagate up to? Is it enough?

mike, make a 5 gallon batch of something similar and use the yeast cake from that as your starter.

Let's assume that's not an option at this time (although I have used that technique in the past).

I did all kinds of counts a long time ago and found for ale yeast that a starter made from a 1.050 DME wort supplemented with 1/2 or 1 (my notes are elsewhere) teaspoons per quart of yeast nutrient (the urea and ammonium phosphate kind) on a stir plate would have the right amount of cells for 5 gallons. Basically, the extra nitrogen in the nutrient plus the stirring made the difference. For your 51 gals, that's 10.2 quarts.
So, if you've got the nutrient, 9 liters will only be underpitching by about 10%, though YMMV

JohnMc said:

I did all kinds of counts a long time ago and found for ale yeast that a starter made from a 1.050 DME wort...

So, if you've got the nutrient, 9 liters will only be underpitching by about 10%, though YMMV

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Hi all,
I would get that missing 10% raising the 1050 DME starter to 1055, which is the same OG that Mike is going to brew, so to have the positive effect of growing the yeast in the same OG it will meet in the wort.
Could it be a good idea?

So, just to follow up...
Not sure how useful this information is to most on this board, but I do appreciate the responses for sure.

I ended up using this technique to make two starters for two beers:
I made a 10 liter starter on the stove with about 2.75# extract. Cooled, poured through funnel into 10 liter Pyrex "jug".

Pitched 4 White Labs vials (one of 029, the next one of 002), put it on the stir plate.

From the 12th hour, for the next 8 hours or so, I hit it with Pure O2 through a diffusion stone for about 30 seconds, or until it foamed up too high. (this while it was still spinning on my stir plate).

On the third day, the yeast was done, I crashed it out in my cold room, then on brew day (the next day in one case and 4 days later in the other), I syphoned off the spent wort/beer down to about the 1500-2000 mL level.

I swirled up everything under that level, and pitched into my awaiting 53 gallons at 1.054 and 51 gallons at 1.055 awaiting worts.

Both had no problem getting right to work - the Kolsch took it down to 1.010, the 002 finished out in just 3.5 days to 1.014.

So, the answer to the question, will this work, is Hell Ya.

Cheers
Mike
www.hessbrewing.com

Good deal, Mike, glad to hear it worked!

104 gallons of beer. Awesome.

Any reason you cold crashed the starter?

Congrats on the successful brews. I assume they taste great!

Brewpastor said:

Any reason you cold crashed the starter?

Congrats on the successful brews. I assume they taste great!

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I always do this to get the yeast to drop hard and then remove the nasty beer from the top before pitching. Might not be so necessary in a stout, but in a german pils I think it is necessary.

passedpawn said:

I always do this to get the yeast to drop hard and then remove the nasty beer from the top before pitching. Might not be so necessary in a stout, but in a german pils I think it is necessary.

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I would be worried if the beer from the starter was nasty....why did you pitch the yeast from nasty wort?

I assume he means by nasty that its oxygenated beer and starters fermented at room temp for lagers often have a very fruity smell to them as well. Nothing wrong or bad about that as far as it being a starter you shouldn't use.

King of Cascade said:

I would be worried if the beer from the starter was nasty....why did you pitch the yeast from nasty wort?

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I don't like the beer produced by my starters. It's fermented at 80, and it's estery. I usually make at least a gallon starter, so there is a bunch of it.

If you like the taste of your starters, by all means dump it in.

That is a nice website you have there Mike. Good luck with your brewery and when I visit the daughter in San Diego I will check out your brews.

Thanks Gary. I open this next Wednesday, the 7th.

Yea, to the question earlier about why cold crash - exactly what was stated - I don't want to dump 9 liters of junk, unhopped, warm fermented, wrong grain bill, highly oxygenated beer into my hand crafted wort. That's almost 2.5 gallons of not-what-I-want.

So, I cold crash it to knock the yeast down, decant (actually syphon, it's way cleaner and easier to control) all the "junk" beer on top of the cake, except maybe the last 1/2 or 3/4", the swirl that up and pitch it.

And both beers fermented out great, in fact, that was my first time using 002, usually I'm a 1968 guy, and it tore through the wort and was done in about 3 days.

passedpawn said:

I don't like the beer produced by my starters. It's fermented at 80, and it's estery. I usually make at least a gallon starter, so there is a bunch of it.

If you like the taste of your starters, by all means dump it in.

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Sorry, no disrespect just trying to find out what your doing. Do you pitch an 80 degree starter in your beer? If so, is your pitch temp lower?

King of Cascade said:

Sorry, no disrespect just trying to find out what your doing. Do you pitch an 80 degree starter in your beer? If so, is your pitch temp lower?

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Temp is somewhere between fridge temp and ambient (probably closer to the latter).

During the boil, I get the starter out of the fridge and decant onto lawn. An hour or two later, while pumping chilled wort into fermenter, I squirt some of the wort into my decanted yeast, swirl maniacally, and pitch.

mikefromcu said:

Thanks Gary. I open this next Wednesday, the 7th.

Yea, to the question earlier about why cold crash - exactly what was stated - I don't want to dump 9 liters of junk, unhopped, warm fermented, wrong grain bill, highly oxygenated beer into my hand crafted wort. That's almost 2.5 gallons of not-what-I-want.

So, I cold crash it to knock the yeast down, decant (actually syphon, it's way cleaner and easier to control) all the "junk" beer on top of the cake, except maybe the last 1/2 or 3/4", the swirl that up and pitch it.

And both beers fermented out great, in fact, that was my first time using 002, usually I'm a 1968 guy, and it tore through the wort and was done in about 3 days.

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So you would rather pitch unhealthy yeast that has been starved into dormancy in your beer. When the yeast comes to the end of its cycle a lot of bad things happen to it. Only some of the cells survive the starvation and they begin to mutate. I’m not saying you can’t make beer with that but you might make better beer if you pitch right before the yeast enters the log phase. Of course this means you have to pitch the starter so you might want to consider fermenting cooler then 80 degrees and not letting it complete its cycle. Also make a neutral starter so it doesn’t affect the flavor of the finished product.

I'm pretty sure that after three days getting fed 02 on a stir plate, then one day in the fridge doesn't starve my yeast into dormancy.

Also, there are two people replying back on this post, me, mikefromcu and Passedpawn. You are mixing and matching our techniques and approaches.

You won't find "80" any where in my posts. Before you start to try and pick a fight (So you would rather...) read more closely. I'm only here trying to help.

The advice and the technique I used was the advice I got directly from White Labs. You think I goofed? Come try my beer. Or take it up with Chris White. Peace out.

mikefromcu said:

I'm pretty sure that after three days getting fed 02 on a stir plate, then one day in the fridge doesn't starve my yeast into dormancy.

Also, there are two people replying back on this post, me, mikefromcu and Passedpawn. You are mixing and matching our techniques and approaches.

You won't find "80" any where in my posts. Before you start to try and pick a fight (So you would rather...) read more closely. I'm only here trying to help.

The advice and the technique I used was the advice I got directly from White Labs. You think I goofed? Come try my beer. Or take it up with Chris White. Peace out.

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Back off dude…not trying to start a fight. Just want to point out that there is another school of thought. That’s all.


Wow you up tight dude.

mikefromcu said:

I'm pretty sure that after three days getting fed 02 on a stir plate, then one day in the fridge doesn't starve my yeast into dormancy.

Also, there are two people replying back on this post, me, mikefromcu and Passedpawn. You are mixing and matching our techniques and approaches.

You won't find "80" any where in my posts. Before you start to try and pick a fight (So you would rather...) read more closely. I'm only here trying to help.

The advice and the technique I used was the advice I got directly from White Labs. You think I goofed? Come try my beer. Or take it up with Chris White. Peace out.

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Let me try to make this simple for you. If you and ten of you closest friends are locked in a room with 100 big macs. For the first few days there will be a feeding frenzy, then the food will run out, then some of you will die of starvation. Some will live longer then others and then you will be chilled and fall to the bottom. You will then be put into another room with 5000 big macs and the frenzy will start again. Now, if all ten of your friends lived and you were all put into the room with 5000 big macs, do you think you will eat more big macs faster?

Now that I can relate to. Thanks for the tip!

mikefromcu said:

Now that I can relate to. Thanks for the tip!

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Don’t know why I used the big mac analogy…im a vegetarian. I guess I thought it would be more convincing then the tofu angle.

King of Cascade said:

Let me try to make this simple for you. If you and ten of you closest friends are locked in a room with 100 big macs. For the first few days there will be a feeding frenzy, then the food will run out, then some of you will die of starvation. Some will live longer then others and then you will be chilled and fall to the bottom. You will then be put into another room with 5000 big macs and the frenzy will start again. Now, if all ten of your friends lived and you were all put into the room with 5000 big macs, do you think you will eat more big macs faster?

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Roughly what percentage die in the couple of days after the starter fermentation is finished, and it has been stored at fridge temps?

(I'm wondering about yeast, not mike's big-mac-eating friends).

passedpawn said:

Roughly what percentage die in the couple of days after the starter fermentation is finished, and it has been stored at fridge temps?

(I'm wondering about yeast, not mike's big-mac-eating friends).

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First of all, the yeast die as the food is running out or has run out. After that a lot of variable come in to play but about half for the average homebrewer. The other advantages to pitching the entire starter is the activity of the yeast. If you have a continuous growth rate then pitch you have better attenuation.

King of Cascade said:

First of all, the yeast die as the food is running out or has run out. After that a lot of variable come in to play but about half for the average homebrewer.

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What's the source for that? I've never seen anyone cite anything close to a 50% die-off after a few days of cold storage.

a10t2 said:

What's the source for that? I've never seen anyone cite anything close to a 50% die-off after a few days of cold storage.

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From a BA article a while back, I will try to dig it up and post it. Also the majority of the yeast don’t die from cold conditioning (see big mac analogy) it dies when the food runs out.
Anyways just a different way to go about making good beer, If you like your way better then use it. Just thought I would share some new ideas.

King of Cascade said:

First of all, the yeast die as the food is running out or has run out. After that a lot of variable come in to play but about half for the average homebrewer. The other advantages to pitching the entire starter is the activity of the yeast. If you have a continuous growth rate then pitch you have better attenuation.

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You're acting like you know WAY more about yeast than you really do.

50% die through cold crashing?

You're advocating pitching a bunch of oxidized beer into a batch of fresh wort?

So , when you make a Dopplebock you just pitch the whole 2 gallon or so starter into your nice fresh wort................ that must taste............good

King of Cascade said:

From a BA article a while back, I will try to dig it up and post it. Also the majority of the yeast don’t die from cold conditioning (see big mac analogy) it dies when the food runs out.
Anyways just a different way to go about making good beer, If you like your way better then use it. Just thought I would share some new ideas.

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So chilling and decanting aren't causing any die-off of yeast. That's good.

And you remember reading that about 50% of the yeast die in 2 days after fermentation is finiished? I would like to see that article. I'm really interested. That is something I certainly haven't seen before.

babalu87 said:

You're acting like you know WAY more about yeast than you really do.

50% die through cold crashing?

You're advocating pitching a bunch of oxidized beer into a batch of fresh wort?

So , when you make a Dopplebock you just pitch the whole 2 gallon or so starter into your nice fresh wort................ that must taste............good

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50% die through cold crashing

Not sure if I didn't state this clear or if you're having trouble understanding it but this is what I said
Also the majority of the yeast don’t die from cold conditioning (see big mac analogy) it dies when the food runs out.

The starter will not oxidize your beer if the yeast is in the aerobic state...you know because its absorbing oxygen.

Agree, big lagers are harder but I usually make a 2000 ml starter then pitch it into 2.5 gallons of beer then make 2.5 gallons more the next day. Sure that is a lot of work but the results are worth it.

passedpawn said:

So chilling and decanting aren't causing any die-off of yeast. That's good.

And you remember reading that about 50% of the yeast die in 2 days after fermentation is finiished? I would like to see that article. I'm really interested. That is something I certainly haven't seen before.

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I will try to find it this weekend and post the article. Also, Greg Dross (I think that’s his name) from Wyeast talked about it briefly at NHC

King of Cascade said:

50% die through cold crashing

Not sure if I didn't state this clear or if you're having trouble understanding it but this is what I said
Also the majority of the yeast don’t die from cold conditioning (see big mac analogy) it dies when the food runs out.

The starter will not oxidize your beer if the yeast is in the aerobic state...you know because its absorbing oxygen.

Agree, big lagers are harder but I usually make a 2000 ml starter then pitch it into 2.5 gallons of beer then make 2.5 gallons more the next day. Sure that is a lot of work but the results are worth it.

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50%...........................
50% of yeast die when the food runs out?
Exactly how long does that take?
Do they die as soon as the food runs out or do they slowly starve to death?
You realize that yeast are making more yeast correct?

You're pitching 2000ml of starter into 2.5 gallons of beer and then putting 2.5 gallons on top of that the next day?

So 10% of your beer is spent starter wort............ and you're telling me the results are worth it?

babalu87 said:

50%...........................
50% of yeast die when the food runs out?
Exactly how long does that take?
Do they die as soon as the food runs out or do they slowly starve to death?
You realize that yeast are making more yeast correct?

You're pitching 2000ml of starter into 2.5 gallons of beer and then putting 2.5 gallons on top of that the next day?

So 10% of your beer is spent starter wort............ and you're telling me the results are worth it?

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Are you asking a serious question or are you being combative?
If you’re asking a serious question then I will try to help you out if you’re trying to be a jerk then please stop quoting me.

It starts happening as soon as the food runs out. And no not all at once.

Yes yeast grow and multiply in the lag and a few hours into the log phases….not much after that.

Yeah about 80% steep up each steep from a single colony. Would just like to point out that if you pitch a barleywine on a yeast cake from a well made 70/- then that would technically be spent starter wort…right?

King of Cascade said:

Are you asking a serious question or are you being combative?
If you’re asking a serious question then I will try to help you out if you’re trying to be a jerk then please stop quoting me.

It starts happening as soon as the food runs out. And no not all at once.

Yes yeast grow and multiply in the lag and a few hours into the log phases….not much after that.

Yeah about 80% steep up each steep from a single colony. Would just like to point out that if you pitch a barleywine on a yeast cake from a well made 70/- then that would technically be spent starter wort…right?

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Not being a jerk at all.

How many yeasties in a week old, cold crash starter are still "alive"?
How many yeasties in a dry pack of yeast are still alive?

If I pitched a Barleywine on a 70/- yeast cake I can bet you all the money ever printed that there wont be 10% spent starter wort

Your talking about 2 quarts

babalu87 said:

Not being a jerk at all.

How many yeasties in a week old, cold crash starter are still "alive"?
How many yeasties in a dry pack of yeast are still alive?

If I pitched a Barleywine on a 70/- yeast cake I can bet you all the money ever printed that there wont be 10% spent starter wort

Your talking about 2 quarts

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How many yeasties in a week old, cold crash starter are still "alive"?

50% of yeast die when the food runs out?

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you do the math

How many yeasties in a dry pack of yeast are still alive?

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most if not all from what I understand.
I’m not very familiar with the drying procedure but they guarantee a certain cell count and I hope they are talking about “live cells"

If I pitched a Barleywine on a 70/- yeast cake I can bet you all the money ever printed that there wont be 10% spent starter wort

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you missed the point...you would be drinking the spent wort (aka the 70/-)

King of Cascade said:

Yeah about 80% steep up each steep from a single colony.

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Come again?

King of Cascade said:

Would just like to point out that if you pitch a barleywine on a yeast cake from a well made 70/- then that would technically be spent starter wort…right?

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Well, if you were oxygenating the 70/- during fermentation I don't think I'd call it "well made". And if you were I certainly wouldn't pitch on it without decanting the "spent wort".

Plus, by your logic that yeast cake would be at least 50% dead cells, right? For that matter, so would a smack pack.

Take a look at the two graphs on pg 5 of this pdf:
http://www.bdbiosciences.com/documents/Evaluation_of_Yeast_Viability.pdf
Granted, it's wine, but it's informative.

JohnMc said:

Take a look at the two graphs on pg 5 of this pdf:
http://www.bdbiosciences.com/documents/Evaluation_of_Yeast_Viability.pdf
Granted, it's wine, but it's informative.

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Summary of graphs:

Yeast viability in wine drops about 2% over 2.5 weeks. Specific gravity goes from about 1.150 to 1.013 during that period, so the yeast was quite busy.

Essentially, there is almost no loss of yeast. At least in wine.

To relate this to the discussion above is difficult because assertion here is that there is a significant die-off within days of the fermentable sugar supply running out. The referenced graphs stop before the end of fermentation.

Yeast viability in wine drops about 2% over 2.5 weeks

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The first graph shows the viability bouncing around mostly between 80-90%, I wouldn't feel comfortable with such fine distinction, the data are to noisy.

The referenced graphs stop before the end of fermentation.

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Yeah, it looks like they went just to the end. It would be informative to go farther, unless the E&J Gallo folks didn't want them to. Still, the 'food' is pretty much gone by day 15. They might have stopped because the yeast are flocculating and going below the measurable cells/ml.

What's crazy is the immense die-off (~90%) immediately after pitching. Osmotic shock from the 24°P must?