Apfelwein questions...yeast, carbonation?

Ok guys, I need to call on your knowledge.

I recently finished up my first batch of Ed's Apfelwein and it came out pretty well. Very tasty, but not entirely what I hoped for. What I want to end up with is a sweet tasting cider as opposed to a wine flavored apple juice. So I started up another batch and went a different route altogether. I went with 5 gallons of apple cider, 2 lbs of brown sugar and Monachet (sp?) champagne yeast. In bottled it today and again, not exactly what I had hoped for. First thing I know I've gotta change is the brown sugar....that stuff is just fermenting completely out.

So, here's what I need help on... I actually prefer a cloudy cider, so should I be switching from a champagne yeast to an ale yeast so that all the sugars don't ferment out? And, what types of sugars could I add to the cider that won't ferment out and leave a sweeter taste?

Also, I wanted to carbonate my first batch of apfelwein and somehow screwed it up. I followed the same procedure as with bottling beer (5oz priming sugar) and I've got nothing. Do I need to do something different or could this just have been user error?

Any help would be appreciated!

First off, if you want a sweeter cider leave out the extra sugar. The next thing is the yeast. You have been using wine yeast meant for making a dry product. You could try a sweet cider yeast but since you said you like cloudy cider, a wheat beer yeast might be a better choice. It's not going to dry out your cider as much as a wine yeast.

My preference in cider is apple juice and yeast only (no sugar). I usually let it ferment out completely, then use apple concentrate as my primer for bottling. It adds back the fresh apple flavor with a touch of sweetness and of course has the sugar to carbonate the bottles. Adding lactose also sweetens cider without fermenting out.

Apfelwein takes longer to carb than beer. You may not have screwed up your carbing, it may not be finished yet.

Nurmey said:

First off, if you want a sweeter cider leave out the extra sugar.

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Statements like these make me realize that I know a lot less about this stuff than I want to believe.

So, for the type of cider I want to make, it sounds like I'd be better off using a Hef yeast and then priming with more apple cider for bottling? In that situation, how much cider should be used for priming, and how long does carbonation generally take?

Personally, I say keep the sugar and go with Nottingham yeast. In my experience with a couple of gallons it came out to be what my roommate and I were looking for all along. He had a couple bottles of a nice, still apple wine with honey that were good - but we both enjoy the sweeter, effervescent "apple champagne".

If you use a "dry" (flavoring) yeast you'll end up with a dry cider.

Use the yeast appropriate for a sweet wine or use a sweet mead yeast.

First, just to answer your question about making it sweeter. If you want to bottle carb it, the only thing you can do is add in a non fermentable sweetener like lactose or Splenda. About one cup of Spenda is enough to sweeten without getting that artificial twang. Now that I said that, I want to encourage you to force yourself to drink the dry cider for a while. You will get used to it. I'm so tired of the sweetened stuff that I wish I didn't do that.

honestly i think you should do what EdWort has recommended on this forum. Ferment out a dry cider with the montrachet yeast but add a little apple juice to it when you are going to serve it. it adds the sweetness back and retains both the ABV and the flavor complexity/balance in a great apfelwein.

the only other correction i would make would be to use apple juice, not cider. I personally prefer brown sugar to corn or granulated because the brown sugar adds another layer of flavor complexity with a light molasses flavor on the back end. i doubt the dryness comes from the brown sugar...

Here is something not listed. Why not just back sweeten with wine conditioner? It doesn't ferment.

I find that, as much as I like EdWort's original recipe, I find that using Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen Yeast instead of Montrachet, makes for a superior Apfelwein. Try it ..... it may give you the flavor characteristics you are looking for:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=29003&highlight=apfelwein

Also, bulk age your Apfelweins / Ciders for a MINIMUM of 6 months before bottling or kegging. I personally bulk-age mine at least one year before doing so.

- GL63

KD5LEF said:

Here is something not listed. Why not just back sweeten with wine conditioner? It doesn't ferment.

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You can do that, but then you can't carbonate it because it stops the yeast. It's cheaper and easier to just use campden/potassium sorbate to stop fermentation and then sweeten to taste with whatever you want- apple juice, sugar, honey, etc. But if you're carbonating the cider, you can't do that.

This is apfelwein that I brewed mid-january. The only cloudiness from it came from the fact that there was a nice layer of condensation on the glass. I would love to taste it after 6 months, but it doesnt last that long around here!!!

You're making me thirsty!

Thanks for the ideas, guys. I'm gonna try a few out and see what I like.

Tonight I put together some apfelwein following Ed's recipe exactly.

I am planning on adding 1 lb of Lactose before bottling to sweeten it.

I am also thinking of using my fave concentrate to carb it. One can of concentrate contains 162g of sugar. Will this amount give me bottle bombs? There must be someway to figure out how much concentrate to add...

3/4 of a cup of dextrose = how many grams of sugar?

hagbardceline said:

Tonight I put together some apfelwein following Ed's recipe exactly.

I am planning on adding 1 lb of Lactose before bottling to sweeten it.

I am also thinking of using my fave concentrate to carb it. One can of concentrate contains 162g of sugar. Will this amount give me bottle bombs? There must be someway to figure out how much concentrate to add...

3/4 of a cup of dextrose = how many grams of sugar?

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Simple math really...

There are between 28 & 29 grams in an ounce. Since there are 8 ounces in a cup, that means 3/4 of a cup is 6 ounces, or roughly 168 grams in 3/4 of a cup.

I'm assuming Dextrose is 100% fermentable, pure sugar. Therefore, you're right on the ball with 162 grams in your concentrate.

It kind of freaks you out to realize that 8oz can of concentrate is 75% pure sugar. If you read the ingredients, I bet most of that is high fructose corn syrup.

TheFlatline said:

Simple math really...

There are between 28 & 29 grams in an ounce. Since there are 8 ounces in a cup, that means 3/4 of a cup is 6 ounces, or roughly 168 grams in 3/4 of a cup.

I'm assuming Dextrose is 100% fermentable, pure sugar. Therefore, you're right on the ball with 162 grams in your concentrate.

It kind of freaks you out to realize that 8oz can of concentrate is 75% pure sugar. If you read the ingredients, I bet most of that is high fructose corn syrup.

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I'm not sure that this math is 100% correct.

There are 8 fluid oz in cup. that doesn't translate to weight, because it would assume that 1 fluid ounce of sugar weighs 28 grams.

From what I have read, it probably weighs closer to 18-19 grams per ounce.(It isn't as dense as water because there is going to be air inbetween the grains of dextrose.) Therefore, 6 fluid ounces of dextrose is probably somewhere in the region of 108 grams.

That might make for some over-carbonation. I would think that 65% of the can of concentrate should be added.

GrantLee63 said:

I find that, as much as I like EdWort's original recipe, I find that using Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen Yeast instead of Montrachet, makes for a superior Apfelwein. Try it ..... it may give you the flavor characteristics you are looking for:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=29003&highlight=apfelwein

Also, bulk age your Apfelweins / Ciders for a MINIMUM of 6 months before bottling or kegging. I personally bulk-age mine at least one year before doing so.

- GL63

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I'm gonna try out the wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen, i'm making batch 2 and 3 in the coming weeks because I want to have lots for christmas. Will it still work okay in a 5 gallon carboy or does it produce some kreusen?

Brandon O said:

Will it still work okay in a 5 gallon carboy or does it produce some kreusen?

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There are not any of the "Thickening" protines in apple juice to create the kreusen. It'll be fine.

You should (you're going to have to trust me here) dry hop a gallon or 2. You won't be sorry.

What should I use for dry hopping? What has produced good results for you?

Brandon O said:

What should I use for dry hopping? What has produced good results for you?

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I did a batch on a 3068 yeast cake from a dunkleweizen...that was good with just the slightest hint of hop....so I racked a gallon into glass jug and pitched 2 of the little pellets of cascade into it...looked terrible, and I haven't tried it yet, but I just know it's going to be good. I'm thinking of trying a bit of whatever is left at the LHBS in the next batch.

I too had good results with a 2 gallon batch using wyeast 1056. I added 3/4 cup fructose to 2 gallons juice. Not as strong as the regular recipe, but it kept a lot of its sweetness. I loved it anyways.

Okay, my first batch isn't even bottled untill tomorrow so you'll have to excuse my ignorance.
Is the yeast cake whats in the bottom of the primary when you rack it to a secondary? I didn't know you could take that stuff and re-use it. Can you?

It sounds like you took the bottom sediment from a batch of beer and threw it in with some apfelwein.

Brandon O said:

It sounds like you took the bottom sediment from a batch of beer and threw it in with some apfelwein.

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Actually, I racked the beer into the bottling bucket leaving the nasty "Cake" at the bottom of the primary. I stuck the air lock back in there, and bottled my beer. When I was done bottling, I made apfelwein just like Ed says...except I put it right into that nasty dirty carboy with yeast and hop sediment right in the bottom. It only looks dirty, it just had clean beer in it an hour earlier. I did not use any more yeast, as there was plenty in the fermentor already.

As you mull about here, you will see reference to this sort of thing quite often.

YulebeHoppin said:

I'm not sure that this math is 100% correct.

There are 8 fluid oz in cup. that doesn't translate to weight, because it would assume that 1 fluid ounce of sugar weighs 28 grams.

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It's close enough. I've used 1 (Scale) ounce of corn sugar per gallon for years. work as good on 1 gallon batch as 6.

Anyone tried this with the Yeast 3333 German Wheat yeast?

I salvages some 3333 of my hefeweizen I just made. thinking about using it on my first batch of this so called Applewein.

That's a really good way to re use good yeast, i'll have to give it a try.

Is it worthwile to retain the yeast in the primary after siphoning off the Apfelwine to immeadetely go on to make the next batch? How many times could that be repeated before the yeast degenerates and starts to produce weird smells and flavors?

Quick question- I started a 5 gallon batch of apfelwein back in May and due to some scheduling issues it's been sitting in the carboy since then. Did I wait too long to bottle it and ruin it, or will this have any effect?

Nerro -

I personally have yet to do this, but I plan to soon.

Several here have posted about repitching the yeast cake. Most have seemed very scared to repitch the same cake more than a time or two, due to a fear of infection.

However, someone else here offered that a History/Discovery/TLC? channel documentay on moonshining/bootlegging in the Southeastern US during the '40s-'60s teaches that one Good-Ol'-Boy pitched the same yeast cake for over forty years!

Try doing a search on the Key words if you want the exact details.

spinaltapp -

I think that page one of this thread will answer your question.

I'm thinking that you have some perfectly aged cider there. But if you're thinking that it may be too risky, just send it to me and I'll dispose of it properly for you!

Pogo