Blue Moon Clone

Brewed my first batch last night using Weyermann Vienna and Weyermann Pale Wheat. I have been waffling back and forth with the grain amounts based on the original recipe, Beersmith and the input from BBB but finally decided to go with Wayne's updated post at #274. I guess my efficiency is better than I thought because I wound up with a pre-boil of 1.053 and a OG 1.064. So much for a session beer LOL Anyway, on the positive side, the temps and volumes came out great. With .5 lb of pre-soaked rice hulls and being careful to lauter/sparge slowly (nearly 1 hour) I had no problems whatsoever with stuck sparge. Nothing to do but wait now (I hate that part) but the smell coming out of the bubbling airlock has a hint of the coriander so I am hopeful. Will let you know how it goes.
Thom

I brewed this and it came out nothing like blue moon. Taste and color were way off. Not a bad beer, just not blue moon.

Color was more like a witbier than blue moon.

d_striker said:

I brewed this and it came out nothing like blue moon. Taste and color were way off. Not a bad beer, just not blue moon.

Color was more like a witbier than blue moon.

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which recipe did you brew?

nilo said:

which recipe did you brew?

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Grains:
50% 2 Row Pale Malt
40% White wheat malt
10% Oats (cereal mashed)

d_striker said:

Grains:
50% 2 Row Pale Malt
40% White wheat malt
10% Oats (cereal mashed)

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Since then we have added a little crystal malt to get the deep color and sweetness, boiled a small amount of oats for mouth feel, and adjusted the amounts of spices to yeild a brew much closer to blue moon for small scale batches. The original recipe was from blue moons original brewer and it may have changed since then to what we drink today. Also large scale brewing does not always translate to 5 gal batches. I would suggest reading through the thread. Nilo has done some great optimizations and I would suggest paying great attention to what he has said. Welcome to the thread and brew on

ekjohns said:

Since then we have added a little crystal malt to get the deep color and sweetness, boiled a small amount of oats for mouth feel, and adjusted the amounts of spices to yeild a brew much closer to blue moon for small scale batches. The original recipe was from blue moons original brewer and it may have changed since then to what we drink today. Also large scale brewing does not always translate to 5 gal batches. I would suggest reading through the thread. Nilo has done some great optimizations and I would suggest paying great attention to what he has said. Welcome to the thread and brew on

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Do you know roughly what page the new recipe is on?

Nilo - could you please describe the difference between the 2nd and 3rd attempt? Which one had the closest taste to blue moon, closest color, closest mouth feel. I believe the color and mouth feel was spot on with attempt 3. Is this correct? What current spice amounts are you using? I would like to have everyone come together with a "final" recipe for the people just joining the thread as a starting point. thanks a bunch for everything you have done so far

2nd attempt
4.5# white wheat malt
4.5# 2 row
1# crystal 10L
1/4# crystal 40L
2# Flaked oats (Mashed)

and 3rd attempt:
4.5# wheat malt
4# 2row
2# crystal 10L
1/2# carapils
1/2# flaked oats boiled for 1h
1oz hallertauer for 60min
1/4oz coriander for 10min
1/2oz sweet orange peel for 10min
1/2oz bitter orange peel for 10min
Mashed at 157F, fermented at 66F with S04

Here are the recipes with minor corrections/additions:

2nd attempt
4.5# white wheat malt
4.5# 2 row
1# crystal 10L
1/4# crystal 40L
2# Flaked oats (Mashed)
1/2lb rice hulls
Mashed at 158F
1/4oz cracked coriander for 10min
1 tsp irish moss for 20min
1oz hallertauer for 60min
Fresh orange peels from 3 medium size oranges, soaked in vodka into primary
Fermented with 1 pack S04 at 67 for 10 days
Actual numbers below:
OG=1.053
FG=1.013
ABV%=5.2
IBU=13
SRM=7




and 3rd attempt:
4.5# wheat malt
5# 2row
2# crystal 10L
1/2# carapils
1/2# flaked oats boiled for 1h
1oz hallertauer for 60min
1/4oz coriander for 10min
1/2oz dry sweet orange peel for 10min
1/2oz dry bitter orange peel for 10min
1 tsp irish moss for 20min
Mashed at 157F, fermented at 66F with 1 pack S04 for 8 days
Actual numbers below:
OG=1.051
FG=1.011
ABV%=5.2
IBU=13
SRM=7


Answering your questions:
Color:
#2 color was little too dark, guess from crystal 40.
#3 was spot on

Body/thickness:
#2 body was too thin, nothing like real BM
#3 was very, very close. I was tasting some phenolic in the beer, but I think it was too green. After 4 weeks bottle conditioned, it went away. Be aware that boiling 1/2lb oats for 1h will leave a nasty slimy trub in your fermenter. It will compact some after fermentation is completed, but it looks nasty.

Flavors:
#2 had stronger orange flavor than #3
#3 had less flavor, in any spectrum I guess, but that seems to match better with the real BM

Hope this helps. I'm sticking with #3, perhaps boil the oats for 15min only. Not sure how that would affect body though.

Those are very small additions of coriander and orange based on the original recommendations. Did you try the original recipe and find the 1.25 oz coriander and 0.4 oz valenica orange was too much?

Yes. I noticed that my previous attempt #1 had too much of a coriander flavor, so I scaled it down.

I just tried one of my BM clones last night. I followed Nilo's #1 attempt recipe for this batch. It WAS AMAZING!!!!!!!! It had only been bottles 1 1/2 weeks so it is not fully conditioned yet but it was some of the best beer I've ever had. I have all of the ingredients to brew another batch and I was going to follow Nilo's #3 but after trying one of those last night.......I may go with his #1 again. I agree that #1 was not a true BM clone. Mine was lighter in color and had more of an "oats" taste to it but it was great. I know that when I boiled the oats, I left 1/4 lb in the boil for about 30 minutes at the end of the boil. In my case, it didn't make the beer too thick but it did add more flavor and I personally love it!

tremec77 said:

I just tried one of my BM clones last night. I followed Nilo's #1 attempt recipe for this batch. I WAS AMAZING!!!!!!!! It had only been bottles 1 1/2 weeks so it is not fully conditioned yet but it was some of the best beer I've ever had. I have all of the ingredients to brew another batch and I was going to follow Nilo's #3 but after trying one of those last night.......I may go with his #1 again. I agree that #1 was not a true BM clone. Mine was lighter in color and had more of an "oats" taste to it but it was great. I know that when I boiled the oats, I left 1 lb in for about 30 minutes. In my case, it didn't make the beer too thick but it did add more flavor and I personally love it!

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Did you boil the oats? I'm asking because my 1st recipe called for mashing the oats. My last reciped calls for boiling it.

just looked at my notes...I mashed 1 3/4 lb and then boiled 1/4 lb for 30 minutes ( I typed it wrong in my post above). I was expecting it to be much thicker but in my case, it wasn't much thicker than a "light" beer.

tremec77 said:

just looked at my notes...I mashed 1 3/4 lb and then boiled 1/4 lb for 30 minutes ( I typed it wrong in my post above). I was expecting it to be much thicker but in my case, it wasn't much thicker than a "light" beer.

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Good to know that 1/4lb boiled for 30min didn't give enough body. We may need to stick with 1lb for 60min, and live with the nasty trub, as far as trying to be close to the commercial beer. If you like the recipe you just brewed better, stay with that.

I read all 34 pages of this thread. I am very excited to make this Blue Moon clone.

Question:
What is the optimum temp of the fermentation?

Just an FYI...I've had good luck picking up ground Valencia orange peel in the spice section at Walmart. It's McCormick brand and should be available at almost any grocery store. Same goes for ground Coriander, saves having to grind the whole seeds.

TheDolphSudsFactory said:

I read all 34 pages of this thread. I am very excited to make this Blue Moon clone.

Question:
What is the optimum temp of the fermentation?

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If you use the US-05 or 1056 yeast, I have found fermenting at 68F (20C) gives a very clean flavor to the beer.

Hey guys,
I want to brew a blue moon clone and i think i have a good starting point for a recipe. It is as following:

-3.5 lbs. White Wheat Malt
-3.5 lbs. 2-Row pale malt
-1 lb. Chrystal 10L
-.25-.5 lbs. Carapils
- .5 lbs. Flaked Oats (Boiled not mashed)

Hops and Spices
-1 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (90 mins)
-3/8 oz. ground coriander seeds (10 mins)
-1/2 oz. sweet orange peel (10 mins)
-1/2 oz. bitter orange peel (10 mins)

Yeast
- s-04 or Whitelabs WPL001 for a clean pallate so that orange and corriander can come through, not so much the yeast.

i was thinking doing a 3 gallon mash at 157 F, and then a 2.5 gallon batch sparge at 168 F. Then a 6 gallon boil and final volume of about 5 to 5.5 gallons.

I was wondering if this recipe and tecniques would be suitable for a good clone.
Thanks, Drew

tremec77 said:

I just tried one of my BM clones last night. I followed Nilo's #1 attempt recipe for this batch. It WAS AMAZING!!!!!!!! It had only been bottles 1 1/2 weeks so it is not fully conditioned yet but it was some of the best beer I've ever had. I have all of the ingredients to brew another batch and I was going to follow Nilo's #3 but after trying one of those last night.......I may go with his #1 again. I agree that #1 was not a true BM clone. Mine was lighter in color and had more of an "oats" taste to it but it was great. I know that when I boiled the oats, I left 1/4 lb in the boil for about 30 minutes at the end of the boil. In my case, it didn't make the beer too thick but it did add more flavor and I personally love it!

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Hey!
Lately i have been looking to make a Blue Moon Clone and Nilos #3 final recipe seemed to be spot on. And i just had a few questions about it. The grain bill he uses, you would make about a 12 gallon batch if using 2 quarts per pound of grain and sparging with the same amount of wate. i was just wondering what tecniques you used. And the approximation of his #3 recipe for a 5 gallon batch.
If you could respond that would be awesome!
Thanks, Drew

prcbrewer said:

Hey!
Lately i have been looking to make a Blue Moon Clone and Nilos #3 final recipe seemed to be spot on. And i just had a few questions about it. The grain bill he uses, you would make about a 12 gallon batch if using 2 quarts per pound of grain and sparging with the same amount of wate. i was just wondering what tecniques you used. And the approximation of his #3 recipe for a 5 gallon batch.
If you could respond that would be awesome!
Thanks, Drew

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I'm not sure what you mean. My #3 recipe has 13lb grist, for a 5gal batch, OG of 1.051 for 70% mash efficiency. 12 gal batch with same grain bill would give you less than half OG.
I used fly sparging, nothing special.

I read every single page of this thread, and am excited to get this going. I'll probably do a partial mash first before doing all-grain. I'm waiting for some others who started their extract batches to report back with their results.

Ok, I'm a bit late getting back to the forum, but my extract try is in. It's good beer, but far from the current Blue Moon. The color is definitely off, but I blame that on the pale extract/wheat malt I used. It is hazy like Blue Moon and the mouthfeel is thick both of which I attribute to the boiled oats. (Honestly for my tastes I won't boil the oats again but it does lead towards the current Blue Moon. My biggest problem is with the adjuncts, the coriander (by weight) is way to high in a 3:1 ratio with the orange peel (compared to the current beer). Again, several people love the beer and I don't dislike it, but I'm a bit bummed how different the flavor is from Blue Moon. For my next go at it, I am going to drastically reduce the coriander and increase the orange peel to about a 1:1 ratio just to get a bigger orange flavor (maybe not, the coriander is so strong that it may just be masking the orange peel). Maybe I messed something up but this is my experience.

In the first photo, the wieght of three times the coriander filled the dish on the left and the dish on the left contained the orange peel. Volume-wise this was a huge difference.

The second photo you can see the color discrepancy, but again, I blame that on the extract it's self.

Thanks for the feedback, MathMan.

This is why I suggest brewing the recipe one way first. Try it and then adjust.

There are more than a few that have reported that 1-1.25 OZ of coriander for a gallon batch is too much. What source of coriander are you using?

Maybe try cutting it back a third for the next try.

It would be nice to try to standardize the source of the spices. Can most people find McCormick ground coriander and the ground Valencia orange peel?

Would you prefer to use fresher spices?

I do have a very good spice shop near to me. They do grind the spices fresh weekly. While it has been some time since I have drank Blue Moon, I would be willing to take a bullet for the team and try to find a fresh six pack. I could pick up some of the spices and try to brew a few variations and compare.

This would be only for all grain.

If there is someone else who is willing to put in the time for extract, I would be okay with sending them some of the spices.

If there are any Denver area brewers following this thread, perhaps we could get together and taste the results and compare to the current Blue Moon.

If the fresh ground spices work out, the spice shop does sell on-line. This would help everyone standardize their versions.

MathMan said:

In the first photo, the wieght of three times the coriander filled the dish on the left and the dish on the left contained the orange peel. Volume-wise this was a huge difference.

The second photo you can see the color discrepancy, but again, I blame that on the extract it's self.

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Mathman, was your batch 5 gals?
Do you know how much you used of each spice in oz or grams?

Nilo, I started the fermentation with the usual 5.25gal. I used 1.25 oz of ground coriander and .4oz of valencia orange peel (I'll be honest, I did not have a scale and my orange peel measurement was based off the ratio to the whole container but it's definitly "close enough"). Both McCormick's brand from the local Walmart. I know they aren't the freshest spices, but I will defnitley be dumbing down the coriander for the next batch. My wife is the one who requested the Blue Moon for her graduation (from dental school) party and I tried slipping her the "clone" tonight and her comment was "it's too thick". I think the boiled oats played a part in that perception (trying them side by side I agree) and its not a bad beer by any means, but it is l definitly (as I brewed it) not a "starter" beer. I also think the overwhelming coriander played a role in her comment.

Something I've noticed from other side-by-side pictures, including mine; does the fact that the real Blue Moon doesn't ever seem to have as much head meansomething about the freshness of our samples?

I think 1-1/4oz coriander is definitly too much, for this clone. I used 1/2oz and was too much, finally 1/4oz was good enough, as far as comparing to the real BM.
Some friends liked better the 1/2oz batch though.
I didn't get much head in any of my clones, just like the real BM.

Nilo, I have to agree that those portions are too much for cloning the current BM and when looking bcak through the thread, I used the revised recipe of Wayne's which called for 1.25oz coriander and .3 oz of orange peel. In that post, Wayne asked if those sounded correct and never recieved a response to the question! So, I'd say we now have a difinitive response that those amounts seem too high; even in the 3:1 ratio which I think we've gotten away from in trying to clone the current BM.

Live and learn, as I said, the beer is still good, but pretty heavy. I'll be trying again after my primary is free.

Question: Do you think my assumption about the color of my attempt is correct? That the extract contains a darker base malt than is needed for this clone. If so, any recommendations on brands I could use which might have a lighter base malt with the wheat extract?

I am going to complicate things.

I may be in the minority, but to my taste buds, there is a HUGE difference between bottled Blue Moon and draft Blue Moon. Like a lot of beers for me, the draft Blue Moon is a vastly superior beer. Draft Blue Moon is thick and has the orange flavor/odor that I am going after. The stuff in the bottle (to me) is not as aromatic and is a thinner-tasting beer.

Spice-wise, I purchased coriander seeds on-line. I crush them immediately before adding them to the boil. I will not use the pre-ground stuff that is available to me at the grocery store. There is no 'orangey-ness' left in that stuff by the time I get to it. I am sure that freshly ground coriander from a spice store is an option, but I've no spice stores near me.

As a result of this thread, I sought out and found the McCormick valencia orange peel.

I just made a batch using the recipe in post 274 and boiled 1/4 lb of flaked oats for 90 min. It's in secondary now. We'll see.

MathMan said:

Nilo, I have to agree that those portions are too much for cloning the current BM and when looking bcak through the thread, I used the revised recipe of Wayne's which called for 1.25oz coriander and .3 oz of orange peel. In that post, Wayne asked if those sounded correct and never recieved a response to the question! So, I'd say we now have a difinitive response that those amounts seem too high; even in the 3:1 ratio which I think we've gotten away from in trying to clone the current BM.

Live and learn, as I said, the beer is still good, but pretty heavy. I'll be trying again after my primary is free.

Question: Do you think my assumption about the color of my attempt is correct? That the extract contains a darker base malt than is needed for this clone. If so, any recommendations on brands I could use which might have a lighter base malt with the wheat extract?

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I agree. getting the target color from extract is hard. It has been a while that I don't use extract so can't help with this.

mccabedoug said:

I am going to complicate things.

I may be in the minority, but to my taste buds, there is a HUGE difference between bottled Blue Moon and draft Blue Moon. Like a lot of beers for me, the draft Blue Moon is a vastly superior beer. Draft Blue Moon is thick and has the orange flavor/odor that I am going after. The stuff in the bottle (to me) is not as aromatic and is a thinner-tasting beer.

Spice-wise, I purchased coriander seeds on-line. I crush them immediately before adding them to the boil. I will not use the pre-ground stuff that is available to me at the grocery store. There is no 'orangey-ness' left in that stuff by the time I get to it. I am sure that freshly ground coriander from a spice store is an option, but I've no spice stores near me.

As a result of this thread, I sought out and found the McCormick valencia orange peel.

I just made a batch using the recipe in post 274 and boiled 1/4 lb of flaked oats for 90 min. It's in secondary now. We'll see.

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You may be right. The only way to know is to get a draft and a bottle side by side to taste. I heard some draft brews have a mix of CO2 and Nitrogen to provide a creamy and smooth taste. Perhaps that can also affect your perception of flavor.
Let us know how your brew turns out.

wsgbane said:

I read every single page of this thread, and am excited to get this going. I'll probably do a partial mash first before doing all-grain. I'm waiting for some others who started their extract batches to report back with their results.

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Hey i asked Nilo about his #3 recipe. And i also got his input on and extract recipe i made up. He gave me this recipe:
-2.5 pounds wheat malt syrup
-3 pounds golden light DME
-2 pounds chrystal 10L
-.5 pounds carapils
-.5 pounds flaked oats

-1 oz. hallertau
-1/4 oz. coriander
-1/2 oz. sweet and 1/2 oz. bitter orange peels

s-04 yeast for 8 days at 66F

prcbrewer said:

Hey i asked Nilo about his #3 recipe. And i also got his input on and extract recipe i made up. He gave me this recipe:
-2.5 pounds wheat malt syrup
-3 pounds golden light DME
-2 pounds chrystal 10L
-.5 pounds carapils
-.5 pounds flaked oats

-1 oz. hallertau
-1/4 oz. coriander
-1/2 oz. sweet and 1/2 oz. bitter orange peels

s-04 yeast for 8 days at 66F

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That is correct, but I have not brewed this, so this what I "think" would be an extract version.
Best way is to brew it and see what happens. The worst that can happen is to be a little off in color or taste, comparing to BM, but it will be good beer anyways

I am stoked right now! Followed one of nilo's recipes (for the most part). Just tried my first sample, and I am loving it! It is very similar to Blue Moon. And it's only my 3rd all grain batch. Here's what I did....

Mash (75 minutes):
5 lb 2-row
4.5 lb white wheat
2 lb Crystal 10
1/2 lb Cara-Pils
1/2 lb Rice Hulls (pre-soaked in wam water)

Boil (60 minute boil):
1/4 lb Flaked Oats (60 minutes)
1 oz Hallertauer (60 minutes)
3 tsp ground coriander (10 minutes)

Yeast: Safale US-05

Secondary: 1/2 oz orange extract (purchased at Wal-Mart)

Was shooting for mash temp in the lower 150's, but it was actually between 146F and 149F. Primary fermentation for 14 days and secondary for 14 days. Rice hulls were probably not necessary, but I don't think they hurt anything either. Pre-soaked them in warm water for 30 minutes so they wouldn't mess with my water calculations. When nilo brewed this recipe, he noted a slight phenolic taste. I don't notice it, but my palette is not very sophisticated. Also, be very careful with the orange extract. I tried to use about 1/2 of the 1 oz bottle I got, but I probably used a little more than 1/2 oz. It tastes great, but it almost has too much orange. That's some powerful stuff.

O.G. = 1.058
F.G. = 1.010
ABV = 6.2%

Thanks nilo!

I am excited, my blue moon tastes very close to the original, now I just need to wait for it to fully carbonate! I think the color is right on too.

Brewed this today. Everything was going great until I check the OG into the primary. It was 1.044 with a target of 1.053. I have no idea why my efficiency was low. Using this same setup I usually get 70%. I mashed at 155 for 90 mins an boiled for 60 min.

Nilo,

Where did you get, or what kind of orange peel are you using...
Also, could you put the oats in a hop sack during the boil to help clean up???

Also, as a punch this into BeerSmith, it gives me a OG of 1.065. Seems kinda high....5 gallons at 70% eff.


Thx

Duk

Wild Duk said:

Nilo,

Where did you get, or what kind of orange peel are you using...
Also, could you put the oats in a hop sack during the boil to help clean up???

Also, as a punch this into BeerSmith, it gives me a OG of 1.065. Seems kinda high....5 gallons at 70% eff.


Thx

Duk

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I used fresh oranges peels on few recipes, then switched to dry orange peels from my LHBS (sweet and curacao). Honestly, didn't see much diference.

Yes, definitly use a muslin bag to boil the oats.

Which recipe are you using?

I plan on using your #3 recipe....I've tried blue moon clones about 4 times, different yeasts, and even recipeone from this thread early on....Never came close...
The onlyt thing that worries me about yours is the 2# of Crystal 10....Seems like a lot, but then again its only c-10, so maybe not too sweet....

Wild Duk said:

I plan on using your #3 recipe....I've tried blue moon clones about 4 times, different yeasts, and even recipeone from this thread early on....Never came close...
The onlyt thing that worries me about yours is the 2# of Crystal 10....Seems like a lot, but then again its only c-10, so maybe not too sweet....

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Don't worry on the crystal. Crystal 10L malt is very fermentable, almost as fermentable as the base malt, so not much residual sweetness is expected, just some color and a hint of caramel flavor.
For this recipe and efficiency of 70%, I expect OG at 1.055 and FG at 1.014. I got 1.052 and 1.013 when I brewed it with E=65%. Not too sweet at all.
I'm not sure why you are getting 1.065 from Beersmith.
I brewed #4 recently, now few days in bottles. Used dry orange peels from my LHBS, both curacao and sweet oranges. 3/8oz coriander. Boiled oats for only 15min. Will see what happens.

Sounds good....Where is your #4. Haven't seen it on here.....
What kind of wheat malt are you using? I planed on using white wheat malt with a SRM of 2.4, and my 2 row has a SRM of 1.8.....

Let me know when your gets carbed....I may be putting this off for a few more weeks....

Thx...