30 amp breaker help

So I currently brew at my parents house because my condo is just too small to store everything in.

I'm going electric and decided to kill two birds with one stone. Get a 240 outlet to my dads garage for his air compressor and a few tools and also have a place for me to plug in for my brewing.

Its an old house so I started inspecting the wiring situation. The panel for the house is ancient! The 240 outlets are all 3 wire 2 hots and 1 neutral. He got his service upgraded a while back so he could put in central air.

Here's a pic of the main I took last night.



Sssoooo we appear to be full. I know there's some serious electrical gurus on this forum so I'm wondering what my options might be here.

Thanks

The 100 is the house, that slim 20 is a 120 outlet right below the panel for outdoor use and the 30 is for the AC.

Warning - this is dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, and I'm not an electrician, but I have done quite a bit of wiring. It looks like one solution would be to put a sub-panel next to the main panel. Then you could add some additional circuits. Keep in mind that you will quickly overload the capacity of the system if you are brewing, running the A/C and your dad is running his compressor and power saw. I attached a quick sketch of what I was thinking.

View attachment Sub-panel.pdf

Theres only 3 circuits for the whole house?

Surely there is a 100amp breaker panel somewhere in the house with multiple circuits.

That panel is no where its current limit. It looks like the 100 amp breaker is feeding something substantial outside of it though.

It looks as though it is the main panel, maybe the situation is the main is on a detached garage with a few small circuits, then the 100 amp breaker feeds a larger sub panel at the actual house.

I think more information is required to answer propperly buddy. Sorry, I am an eleceician and would like to give you answer, but I am almost certain there is more this electrical puzzel

I agree with prandlesc, adding a separate panel is quite easy, but yes dangerous if you don't know what your doing.

What I can tell you is the box in your pic has neutral ground. Notice the white wires and the ground wires attached to the same bar? This is good because two prong appliances can be used and are safely grounded through the neutral wire. You can get a 3 or 4 switch panel for around 50-60 bux. I won't have the 100 amp main, but you dont need it. It is simple, turn the 100 amp main OFF!!! Make sure it is OFF by looking around the house for the dead lights and appliances. Where ever you mount the auxiliary panel, buy enough "jumper wire" to reach from box to box and leave enough extra to work with in both boxes. Make sure you use the same gauge wire that is coming out of the 100 amp main. Just by looking at what you have, it looks likes two of the fat wires should fit in the same terminal. Run your jumpers from both 100 amp terminals to your new box, and run the neutral from box to box. Your new box will have large terminals for the input and then run your wiring from your appliances to your new box and hook them up. The jumper wire you find available may not be 2black/1white, it may be black/red/green/bare etc... it doesnt matter. Keep yourself color coordinated though, White should always be used as neutral, green or bare as ground, and red/black as L1 and L2. Seeing how your allready neutral ground, all you need to worry about is white, black/black, or white, black/red. If all you can find has black/red, it's ok... L1 and L2 are interchangeable. Be sure to give your wires a little tug to make sure they are in the terminals securely, especially where two wires go into 1 terminal. The screw may feel tight, but the wire may not be secure, check it! As long as it doesn't pull out with minimal force it'll be ok. As far as overloading the system, that's what the circuit breakers are for. The ac is running through the 30 which won't be effected by your addition. Any added load will only be running through the 100 amp switch.

MOST IMPORTANT NOTE!!! Even if you turn off all 3 switches...those large silver bars in the top of the box, and the 2 large allen head screws in the top left side of the box CAN KILL YOU (if the main power at the pole is not cut)!!!

White is safe, black kills. just knowing this simple rule can save lives and before you know it, after a little experience, you'll be wiring stuff up without turning anything off!

I'm at work right now but later tonight or maybe tomorrow ill try to explain the situation better. Ill try and snap a few more pics...seems like a pic would do better at explaining than me anyways .

Thanks guys I appreciate the help

T_Baggins said:

...What I can tell you is the box in your pic has neutral ground. Notice the white wires and the ground wires attached to the same bar? This is good because two prong appliances can be used and are safely grounded through the neutral wire.....

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Neutral (grounded conductor) and Ground (grounding conductor)are connected at the main panel and NOT connected at any subpanels by code. The second statement is nonsense, IMO.

T_Baggins said:

... I won't have the 100 amp main, but you dont need it.....

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?????? Isn't it obvious that 100amp breaker feeds a subpanel that services the rest of the house? Of course he needs it.

T_Baggins said:

...... Just by looking at what you have, it looks likes two of the fat wires should fit in the same terminal. Run your jumpers from both 100 amp terminals to your new box, and run the neutral from box to box......

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That would not only be against NEC code but would be dangerous. Feeding two sub-panels with one breaker is a BAD idea.

IMO, the cleanest solution would be to add a sub-panel next to the one in the photo, like prandlesc recommended. Move the existing 20A/120V and 30A/240V circuits to the new sub-panel and install a new breaker in the main panel to feed that new sub-panel.

I am in 100% agreement with raouliii

The only reason I asked for more information beyond that is I would like to see the sub panel that I assuming the 100 amp breaker feeds. Just so I can do some quick load calcs.

Please refer to the diagram prandlesc attached, it is a sound plan. I would suggest calling the utility co and asking them what size service your parents have (you can tell them you are looking at changing insurance companies and they wanted to know....). If it's a 200A service, you could easily up the new feed breaker from 60 (shown in prandlesc's drawing) to even 100A. Just make sure to increase the wire size to match (ie 6AWG for 60A breaker, or 2AWG for 100A). Also make sure to run the wire in conduit of some kind between the panels, especially seeing that it's outdoors.
For what it's worth "green" (designated as ground) is the ONLY color that is considered safe, and that's only if someone wired it correctly (you would be surprised at some of the "add on's" I've found that makes this kind of rule null and void). White (typically designated neutral in residential wiring) can bite, depending on what load is on the circuit!

Based on the current info, I agree that adding a sub panel with the new breakers and moving the existing breakers is probably the best course. But, you have to know what else that 100amp breaker feeds to know if you will overloading your service. Also, I can't stress enough how valuable a cheap 120VAC/240VAC multimeter is for something like this. It can save your life, don't "look to see if the lights are off" to be sure that a panel or wire is safe to touch, use a meter across a ground bar/lug and the wire in question. Also, just because code specifies what color wire should be ground/neutral or hot, don't assume that all the previous homeowners or contractors adhered to that code, check with a meter. Your putting your hands in something that could potentially kill you and if your work isn't up to code and par, could kill or injure down the road.

Ok here we go, I got some info from my dad and then some pics to help clarify.

The house is a 1945, two wire no ground. Panels are old square d xo and the other is a cutler hammer. The square d panel has mostly the garage and laundry room and the cutler hammer has most of the house circuits.

I'm not sure about the square d panel but the breakers on the cutler hammer go, (top to bottom, left to right) Top - 20, 50, 20, Bottom - 20, 20, 20, 20.

It has long been a joke that whoever decided the routing of the wiring in my parents house was out of their mind. There is no logical reason for how its done haha. If you understood the layout you would all be shaking your heads. Buuuuuut this is what I'm working with and would like to make it work if at all possible.

Thank you all so much for your help.

Kaz said:

Based on the current info, I agree that adding a sub panel with the new breakers and moving the existing breakers is probably the best course. But, you have to know what else that 100amp breaker feeds to know if you will overloading your service. Also, I can't stress enough how valuable a cheap 120VAC/240VAC multimeter is for something like this. It can save your life, don't "look to see if the lights are off" to be sure that a panel or wire is safe to touch, use a meter across a ground bar/lug and the wire in question. Also, just because code specifies what color wire should be ground/neutral or hot, don't assume that all the previous homeowners or contractors adhered to that code, check with a meter. Your putting your hands in something that could potentially kill you and if your work isn't up to code and par, could kill or injure down the road.

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Don't worry I hate being shocked more than anything...I don't mess around with electricity. I have a multimeter and use it every time I'm working with electricity. I have a very healthy fear .

Man if you think your qiring is bad you shoild see the place I am in.

Either way, load wise I think you wshould be sound in being able to add a sub panel as described by other posts. I would recommend transfering all the circuits in your main panel to it as recommended by others as well. Size your wire feeding your new sub panel accordingly.

you don't NEED to rin conduit to your new sub panel as mentioned by another, but ot would be woth good intention to do so. If you don't, a couple 2" two screw connectors and a large (thinking #6) 4 wire feeder cable would suit the purpose.

I would highly recommend the sub panel, but its ypur parents hpuse and they get to make the decisions.

Good luck dude.

Ps. This is written on my phone so please done mind the spelling errors

Ok good deal, sounds like the general consensus is the sub panel.

Based on the diagram I put this sub panel right next to the main, move the 20 and 30 amp over to the new panel and put a 60 in their place to feed it. Now I need gfci protection for electric brewing so would it be best to add the gfci breaker in the new sub panel, run my wiring out to the garage and into a conduit box with a 4 prong 240 outlet?

My control panel will be 30amps so I would want to match my gfci breaker to that correct?

Thanks prandle for the diagram btw! Here's a little expanded one I did.

raouliii said:

Neutral (grounded conductor) and Ground (grounding conductor)are connected at the main panel and NOT connected at any subpanels by code. The second statement is nonsense, IMO.

?????? Isn't it obvious that 100amp breaker feeds a subpanel that services the rest of the house? Of course he needs it.

(I was talking about in the new box/subpanel)

That would not only be against NEC code but would be dangerous. Feeding two sub-panels with one breaker is a BAD idea.

(who cares about code really? unless your a paid contractor... and there is nothing dangerous about it, what's the difference if it's feeding another box? the "danger" is a matter of opinion)

IMO, the cleanest solution would be to add a sub-panel next to the one in the photo, like prandlesc recommended. Move the existing 20A/120V and 30A/240V circuits to the new sub-panel and install a new breaker in the main panel to feed that new sub-panel.

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(I don't disagree with this)

Anyway I didn't get into this to debate or argue anything... just giving my opinion on the matter. If he was looking for professional help, I'm sure he could have called a contractor.

T_Baggins said:

...(who cares about code really? unless your a paid contractor... and there is nothing dangerous about it, what's the difference if it's feeding another box? the "danger" is a matter of opinion)

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On a fundamental level, the National Electrical Code (NEC) exists to protect life and property from dangerous electrical practices. Feeding two sub-panels from the same 100amp breaker in the main panel by "double lugging" IS dangerous. This is not a matter of opinion but a well accepted fact. The lugs on circuit breakers are not designed to accept more than one conductor. Inserting two conductors can easily lead to overheating of the connection, which can easily lead to fire.

Not trying to be an a$$hole and I'm certainly not an expert on the NEC but I am very acquainted with standard practices of electrical work. Every now and then I read some questionable electrical advice on HBT and try to respond in a way to clears up the confusion and makes everyone safer.

I see your point, it's just that my logic says is there is no difference. If you had two wires that together, were equal to a larger single wire that doesn't exceed the limit of the lug...what's the problem?

But I do understand about double lugging the 100 amp switch.
I don't think I posted exactly what I meant to say. I live in an OLD crappy trailer no less, and had to do some gas to electric conversions.
Doubling the main and NEC aside, I had to do what I had to do. The existing panel is an old fuse type. I added a sub panel I got from a volunteer firefighter friend. I used the jumpers, but where I double lugged it is on the inlet side where the power comes from the pole. I only added two switches, one to handle the dryer and furnace, and another to handle water heater and the kitchen stove. Everything has been functioning perfectly and safely for a year or so now.

I do appreciate your taking the time to rationally work this out and respect your knowledge and willingness to share with others.

Thanks

in the lower pic, the red w black stripe is from the pole, the red is going to the the other box...same with the black w white stripe and the black...etc...

T Baggins - Please make sure you have fully functional, fairly new, smoke detectors in your trailer. Have an emergency escape plan as well.

Please!

Sssooo now that we have that out of the way did anyone get a chance to look at my wiring diagram?

Would that work?

Again my main thing is I need a 30amp gfci breaker to plug my rig into.

Thanks

Your diagram looks fine. And yes, the GFCI would be in the new panel. And if your control panel is rated at 30 amps, your breaker should match or exceed that requirement. Make sure you understand your code as to whether you can use PVC conduit or have to use rigid conduit. My thought is outside where the conduit is exposed to UV and anywhere it could be damaged, rigid conduit should be used.

I'm questioning your capacity - is 30 amps enough?. What is the highest wattage requirement of your heating elements? As an example, if you have 4500 watt elements, you'll need 40 amp breakers (4500 watts / 120 volts = 37.5 amps). 30 amps limits you to about 3500 watts.
And is is much safer to oversize that to heat up your wiring and breakers. My suggestions would be to go to at least 40 amp, and maybe 50 amp if your calculations determine that 40 is too little.

prandlesc said:

I'm questioning your capacity - is 30 amps enough?. What is the highest wattage requirement of your heating elements? As an example, if you have 4500 watt elements, you'll need 40 amp breakers (4500 watts / 120 volts = 37.5 amps). 30 amps limits you to about 3500 watts.
And is is much safer to oversize that to heat up your wiring and breakers. My suggestions would be to go to at least 40 amp, and maybe 50 amp if your calculations determine that 40 is too little.

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The way I understand the OP will be running 240v, right? That we put it at only 18.75 amps for the 4500 watt element with the 30A setup being fine. Just want to help make it clear. Maybe I missed something?

kopper said:

The way I understand the OP will be running 240v, right? That we put it at only 18.75 amps for the 4500 watt element with the 30A setup being fine. Just want to help make it clear. Maybe I missed something?

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Good catch on my missed thinking and/or math. I'd still suggest you do a quick calculation. But, if your control panel is designed to handle the heating elements you are using and has 30 amp requirement, then you should be fine.

Thanks guys.

Yes I'm basically building kals control panel so its definitely 30amps.

And yes id be using 240 volt.

OK - how did it come out?

Haven't had a chance to work on it. Got super busy at work and other life things.

Hopefully soon though.

Am I the only one who thinks on the original photo (the panel with the 100A 2P breaker) is half full. Isn't there room for 4 standard size breakers rotated 180 deg? did I miss something?

You missed the construction of the box. It's not designed for horizontal breakers.

Alright things got a little crazy with work and what not so I haven't even had a chance to think about this project until now. I greatly appreciate all the help you guys have been so far. I have a few more questions if you wouldn't mind.

I had assumed that the line for the AC was run in some conduit around the side of the house but I was wrong. It is run from the panel outside up some conduit and into the attic and then dropped straight down into the basement, run along a rafter and then into the basement garage where it is run through conduit across the ceiling and finally out the opposite wall to the AC unit.

My question is, wouldn't be it easier to just follow this same route to the garage? Go out the same hole to the garage and then use conduit to run it to the spot I want?

If I do this what exactly is the type of cable I would want to buy and what would be the proper gauge?
Is 10/4 correct?

While I'm mentioning cables and size, what would be best to run from my main to the new sub panel?

Thanks

Anyone?

thirstyutahn said:

...
My question is, wouldn't be it easier to just follow this same route to the garage? Go out the same hole to the garage and then use conduit to run it to the spot I want?

If I do this what exactly is the type of cable I would want to buy and what would be the proper gauge?
Is 10/4 correct?

While I'm mentioning cables and size, what would be best to run from my main to the new sub panel?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Some things to consider: When running conduit - do not run bundled cable within the conduit. It should be seperate wires within the conduit. If you must run cable through conduit, you should oversize the conduit one size to handle it. Just thinking up front...

!0/4 is ok for a 30A feed.

P-J said:

Some things to consider: When running conduit - do not run bundled cable within the conduit. It should be seperate wires within the conduit. If you must run cable through conduit, you should oversize the conduit one size to handle it. Just thinking up front...

!0/4 is ok for a 30A feed.

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Hey thanks PJ, that's good to know.

thirstyutahn said:

Hey thanks PJ, that's good to know.

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You are more than welcome. Electrical work can be a rather complex situation when you take on the task.

If I can help you in your overall plan, I'd be more than glad to help. Maybe we can talk it out if you think that would help. Just let me know your overall plan & maybe we can work out a definitive scheme.

Cheers on your build - and - I'd be glad to help.

P-J

P-J said:

You are more than welcome. Electrical work can be a rather complex situation when you take on the task.

If I can help you in your overall plan, I'd be more than glad to help. Maybe we can talk it out if you think that would help. Just let me know your overall plan & maybe we can work out a definitive scheme.

Cheers on your build - and - I'd be glad to help.

P-J

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Thank you sir. Its always good to have help from someone who knows the code and has done this a time or two .

I'd love ya to look over the current plan and make sure I'd be doing this right. I have pictures of my main panel as well as the sub panels in the house. Also if this plan sounds good is there anything in particular I need to watch out for when wiring the new subpanel? I want to make absolutely sure I wire it correctly. Ill probably get my father in law to come oversee the project as he's an electrician. I want to learn as much as I can though because these are valuable skills to have.

Here we go. Replace the existing 20 and 30amp(for the AC) breakers with a 60 amp, put in a subpanel and move the 20 and 30 over to the new panel along with a 30 amp gfci. Run my 10/4 cable out of the subpanel through conduit and into the attic. From there fish the cable into the basement following the same path as the cable for the AC line and pull it through the hole in the garage wall. Now that it's in the garage run it through conduit again and over to the the spot I want to have my outlet.

Do I have this right?