Electric Question

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Hey guys, I need some input/advise/recommendations on switches for my new rig. I've looked at several options but kinda settled on e-bay (cheap) or Automation Direct for a source. Automation Direct carries their own switches and Eaton switches. The price goes up starting with E-bay, then Automation Direct, then Eaton. I'm adding links below for the switches I'm looking at.
Any input, advise, experience or recommendations would sure be appreciated.

Also, I don't have any experience with these switches with the contact blocks. Can I setup a 2 position switch as a DPDT? What contact blocks would I need to order?

Thanks,
Ed

E-Bay switches;
E-Stop:
http://cgi.ebay.com/PBC-XB2BS545-RE...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad2698a92

Start:
http://cgi.ebay.com/PBC-P22XTMO1-EG...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1e57d3efc1

Selectors:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130307597426&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Automation Direct switches;
E-Stop:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated/GCX1135

Start:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...inated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/GCX1102

Selectors:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...a-_Non-Illuminated/Non-Illuminated/GCX1320-22

Eaton Switches;
E-Stop:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...-z-_Mushroom_Pushbuttons_-a-_Stations/E22LB2B

Start:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...eries)/Flush_-a-_Extended_Pushbuttons/E22PB3A

Selectors:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...22mm_(E22_Series)/Selector_Switches/E22XBG1RR
 
I was burned on E-bay once on switches. The mounting plates just crumbled like glass. So I get mine through AD now. Also, if you need extra contact blocks for the E-bay ones they may be hard to find.
Personally, I like the AD 22mm plastic switches. They're pretty good for the price.

The E-stops you grabbed from AD and Eaton are momentary. You want to look for push on pull off or push on twist off.
AD
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated/GCX1131

Eaton/Cutler Hammer
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...z-_Mushroom_Pushbuttons_-a-_Stations/E22LPB2B
This one is pretty $wank
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._Mushroom_Pushbuttons_-a-_Stations/E22JLB2N8B

The contact blocks are pretty easy. You keep stacking them onto the back of switch for every additional contact needed.
A 2 position switch would need a NO and NC block to act as a SPDT, so 2 NOs and 2 NCs would make it a DPDT. I have to look at your drawings again but I think all you need is single NO contacts for each side of the switch (2 NOs for the 3 pos selector and 1 NA for the 2 Pos Selector.
The E-stops come with 1 NC usually, and thats all you would need. The momentary start needs one NO as well.

I've a whole box full of AD NC blocks if you need some, so don't order any extras of those.

I'll edit this post after I look at your drawings again.
 
Made a shopping list for you.

E-Stop $9.25
Start Button $4.75 (flush will avoid accidental starts)
2 Pos HLT/BK Selector $7.25
3 Pos HOA switch $14 x 5 (Of course these would be the most expensive)

You need one extra NC contact for the BK/HLT switch but you can take it from the ones that come with the 3 pos switches, you wont need them there.

A total of $91.25, $70 of that is the 3 pos boogers.

You can try to find the 3 pos cheaper elsewhere. FYI I did and wished I had bought them the first time from AD.
 
CodeRage said:
Made a shopping list for you.

E-Stop $9.25
Start Button $4.75 (flush will avoid accidental starts)
2 Pos HLT/BK Selector $7.25
3 Pos HOA switch $14 x 5 (Of course these would be the most expensive)

You need one extra NC contact for the BK/HLT switch but you can take it from the ones that come with the 3 pos switches, you wont need them there.

A total of $91.25, $70 of that is the 3 pos boogers.

You can try to find the 3 pos cheaper elsewhere. FYI I did and wished I had bought them the first time from AD.
Click to expand...

WOW!!! Thank you so very much!

Very good input/advice. I was a bit worried about the e-bay stuff, so everything you say makes perfect sense.

Parts are coming together. I ordered the SSRs & Heat Sinks yesterday. I "won" a contactor on e-bay. I found the e-stop latching relay & socket ad AD (I'll order with the switches). I bought a some of THHN. I also bought 30amp twistlocs for the elements (I have 10awg SO cord).

I still need some terminal blocks (not real sure what I need and can use with the 6awg) and 30amp fuses and holders.

I'm hoping to have all the parts so I can start laying the panel out this week!
 
Ohio-Ed said:
I'm hoping to have all the parts so I can start laying the panel out this week!
Click to expand...

Can't wait to see it all finished. I am getting to the same point in my project. I painted my stand over the weekend so now I just have to assemble all the parts. I don't know about you, but I am ready to be finished. Trying to source all the parts needed can keep you busy.
 
Brewmoor said:
Can't wait to see it all finished. I am getting to the same point in my project. I painted my stand over the weekend so now I just have to assemble all the parts. I don't know about you, but I am ready to be finished. Trying to source all the parts needed can keep you busy.
Click to expand...

You have a stand !?!?!?.. You are way ahead of me :drunk:

I have my keggles welded and all the pieces. (Still need to clean em up and put em all together)

I have an electrical design and parts are arriving.

I still have to work out a plumbing plan. Right now I have a bunch of hoses and QDs so everything is "modular".

I will probably run several tests / batches before I put too much into the stand and plumbing. Being electric, I think there are lots of options.

I still have to learn how to take advantage of the BCS-460.

I'm having fun but you are right... sourcing parts is a pain.

Ed
 
CodeRage - I'm assuming the wiring diagram drawn up by Ohio-Ed would work if the BCS was substituted with a Brewtroller. Do you know if thats the case?
 
pickles said:
CodeRage - I'm assuming the wiring diagram drawn up by Ohio-Ed would work if the BCS was substituted with a Brewtroller. Do you know if thats the case?
Click to expand...

That was my intent. You will have to replace the power supply, but the control logic should still stand up.

As I have said in other threads, I currently have a BCS but also have an interest in the Brewtroller. I wanted this design to be flexible enough to handle either.

CodeRage - You agree?

Ed
 
I have a 12V DC power supply ordered. You've just laid things out in a way that really makes it easy to understand. So I'm hoping it will translate to the BT. Thanks
 
Being as I have a 60 amp spa panel, is an on/off or emergency kill button on the control panel really nessicary... or is it completely redundant? I'm starting to lean tword a simple on/off switch just for the brewtroller.
 
Baron ken said:
Thanks. Had seen that one, but didn't know if you knew of one from AD (since I'll be ordering other stuff from there).

I can place another order from Auber though. ;)
Click to expand...

You might get one from AD but it will be more expensive that the one from Aubers. I would have ordered the one from Aubers, but I was looking for a 50Amp.

If you have time, you might find one on e-bay...

I found a 60amp with no bids and "won" it for $.99. With shipping, it was about $15. It is suppose to be "New". It is bigger that I need and will hopefully work for me.
 
hmmm. my control panel is only about 3.5" deep and those 3-position switches are too deep to fit in my panel. I need to find some that are about 1" shallower. I wonder if DC switches are shallower?
 
pickles said:
hmmm. my control panel is only about 3.5" deep and those 3-position switches are too deep to fit in my panel. I need to find some that are about 1" shallower. I wonder if DC switches are shallower?
Click to expand...

Because we are talking about only switching the control lines... you have MANY options for switches. You could use simple toggle switches or a 3 position rockerswitch.
 
I like how cool the lever selector switch looks. I also want something that will fit in a drilled hole not a square one like some rocker switches. I just need to look around a bit.
 
pickles. the depth of those switches aren't that deep. Odds are you wont use the NC blocks it comes with so you can take those off, that would give another inch or so. I'll measure the depth on mine tonight and let you know. I want to say they arent more the 1.5" deep with one block.

As for the brew troller, I dunno. I haven't looked at the system specs for that guy yet. Edit- If it has an external +Bias for control power then yes it will work.

A bit OT but I may be throwing my hand into the Brewery PLC market soon. Still doing a bunch of R&D. That's about all Im going to say about it till I decide whether or not it is something I want to do. There will be at least one on the Brutus20e though:D
 
It does, but just 2 NO contacts. one for each side making it one contact deep. Looking at the specs it would make it about 1.75 deep from the back of the mounting surface.

You, you're correct Ed.
 
Updating the shopping list to illuminated buttons/switches. Wondering if these work like I'm thinking.

Green, momentary for power on (to Relay1). Can the lamp be wired separate from the line being switched? I.e., when the button is pushed and the circuit energizes the relay, can the button's light be wired in series between the relay and the contactor to show the circuit on (since the button is momentary, if it was wired to light when the contact closes, it would just go off when released).
Hope that made sense.

Also, 3 way illuminated, assuming the configuration will be Hand-Off-Auto, can it be wired such that the light can be on when in the Hand position, off in the Off position and in the Auto position only on when the controller tells it to be on?

Or am I going to need to go with standalone lights for the various buttons/switches?

Thanks.
 
I'm having a heck of a time finding a 30amp, 250volt fuse and holder(s) at a decent price. It looks like I can buy a double pole din mount breaker from AD for $18.75... Any reason why this wouldn't work for my 5500watt elements?

Here is the one I'm thinking of:
AD Breaker

Thanks,

Ed
 
Baron ken said:
Updating the shopping list to illuminated buttons/switches. Wondering if these work like I'm thinking.

Green, momentary for power on (to Relay1). Can the lamp be wired separate from the line being switched? I.e., when the button is pushed and the circuit energizes the relay, can the button's light be wired in series between the relay and the contactor to show the circuit on (since the button is momentary, if it was wired to light when the contact closes, it would just go off when released).
Hope that made sense.
Click to expand...
Makes perfect sense. The lamp has it's own circuit. Just wire it parallel to the R1 coil and it will turn on when the system is energized.
Also, 3 way illuminated, assuming the configuration will be Hand-Off-Auto, can it be wired such that the light can be on when in the Hand position, off in the Off position and in the Auto position only on when the controller tells it to be on?
Click to expand...

Take one leg from the load side of the SSR/contactor/relay and run it to one side of the lamp then bond neutral to the other side of the lamp. So when ever the load is called to run it will turn on.
Problem with this is that when in Auto the lamp will only illuminate when the load is being called by the BCS/Brewtroller. If you just want the light to turn on when it is in either position you need to stack 2 NO contacts, one for each side, run 110 to them in parallel and then run the other side to the lamp. When the switch is in either position it will turn the lamp on.

I got the LED variety and am really happy with them.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
I'm having a heck of a time finding a 30amp, 250volt fuse and holder(s) at a decent price. It looks like I can buy a double pole din mount breaker from AD for $18.75... Any reason why this wouldn't work for my 5500watt elements?

Here is the one I'm thinking of:
AD Breaker

Thanks,

Ed
Click to expand...

I would use breakers over fuses if cost wasn't an issue. Nothing like popping a fuse in the middle of a brew and having to order a replacement. Yes, that would work great too btw.
 
CodeRage said:
Makes perfect sense. The lamp has it's own circuit. Just wire it parallel to the R1 coil and it will turn on when the system is energized.


Take one leg from the load side of the SSR/contactor/relay and run it to one side of the lamp then bond neutral to the other side of the lamp. So when ever the load is called to run it will turn on.
Problem with this is that when in Auto the lamp will only illuminate when the load is being called by the BCS/Brewtroller. If you just want the light to turn on when it is in either position you need to stack 2 NO contacts, one for each side, run 110 to them in parallel and then run the other side to the lamp. When the switch is in either position it will turn the lamp on.

I got the LED variety and am really happy with them.
Click to expand...

Great! Thanks.

Also, the lamp only illuminating when the BCS turns the load on is the way I'm wanting it to work. :)
 
Baron ken said:
Great! Thanks.

Also, the lamp only illuminating when the BCS turns the load on is the way I'm wanting it to work. :)
Click to expand...

That most likely will happen very quickly and may shorten the life of your lamp. Although it will look cool with all those lights flashing.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
That most likely will happen very quickly and may shorten the life of your lamp. Although it will look cool with all those lights flashing.
Click to expand...

If he uses the incandescent lamps that would be true. The LED variety aren't susceptible to high frequency switching.
 
CodeRage said:
If he uses the incandescent lamps that would be true. The LED variety aren't susceptible to high frequency switching.
Click to expand...

Good point, and he linked the LED version. I thought about the illuminated switches to tell me when I'm in the "Override" mode. I may re-visit the idea.

I definately want the illuminated "Start" button so there is some indication that the power is on in the panel.

All very good input!

Ed
 
CodeRage said:
I would use breakers over fuses if cost wasn't an issue. Nothing like popping a fuse in the middle of a brew and having to order a replacement. Yes, that would work great too btw.
Click to expand...

AD sells midget fuse holders in increments of 10 so the minimum is over $50. I found them at drillspot.com for $7.92 for a double. By the time I got enough for the 5500watt elements, an extra set of fuses and shipping it was over $40. It's a push if I get the breakers for $18.75 each.

Ed
 
I happen to have a picture of retrofit job we did a while ago that has a illuminated run button and E-Stop.

attachment.php


New Control Interface.jpg
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Good point, and he linked the LED version. I thought about the illuminated switches to tell me when I'm in the "Override" mode. I may re-visit the idea.

I definately want the illuminated "Start" button so there is some indication that the power is on in the panel.

All very good input!

Ed
Click to expand...

Yes, I was planning on the LED variety even though they are more $$.

Also, I will only have 3 lights total:
Power, mom. button: light on when relay1 is energized.
Heater, Hand-Off-Auto: 5500w BK heater, light on when in Hand position or when BCS turns on heater in Auto.
Pump, Hand-Off-Auto: light on when in Hand position or when BCS turns on pump in Auto.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
It is not redundant... See CodeRage's thread "Electrical Primer for Brewers".

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/electrical-primer-brewers-145019/
Click to expand...

Either you misunderstand me.. or I misunderstand you.

What I'm saying is, instead of an estop on the control panel, if I needed to kill the power to the entire system, I could reach over and flip the breaker. I'm not saying depend on the gfci, but I Can use the breaker as an emergency power cut off.

That would leave me with just wanting an on/off switch for the brewtroller itself.
 
MrShake, You CAN do that. The E-stop circuit is just a quick easy no nonsense way to kill power. In an emergency situation you just have to slap at the button which doesnt require much coordination. Otherwise you have to run over to the breaker, grab the right one or the main and flip it over. E-stops can also be strung together so you have multiple points to activate it. When fractions of a second count I want the most accessible disconnect available.

It's your choice, but thats why E-stops are used in industrial applications.
 
MrShake said:
Either you misunderstand me.. or I misunderstand you.

What I'm saying is, instead of an estop on the control panel, if I needed to kill the power to the entire system, I could reach over and flip the breaker. I'm not saying depend on the gfci, but I Can use the breaker as an emergency power cut off.

That would leave me with just wanting an on/off switch for the brewtroller itself.
Click to expand...

No worries... I understood what your intentions were. There was considerable discussion in the thread I pointed you regarding this subject and didn't think it needed to be re-hashed here is all. A lot of rigs work just like you described (this is the first time I'm wiring an e-stop, if you couldn't tell by reading the thread), but I want to make this rig as safe as i reasonably can. Nearly every time I brew I end up forgettting something or screwing something up (maybe I shouldn't drink while I brew?). To me, its worth a few extra $ and a bit more work to do what I can to prevent someone from getting hurt by a system I build.

Ed
 
Baron ken said:
Yes, I was planning on the LED variety even though they are more $$.

Also, I will only have 3 lights total:
Power, mom. button: light on when relay1 is energized.
Heater, Hand-Off-Auto: 5500w BK heater, light on when in Hand position or when BCS turns on heater in Auto.
Pump, Hand-Off-Auto: light on when in Hand position or when BCS turns on pump in Auto.
Click to expand...

After some thinking, I really like the idea of having the LEDs on when there is power to the elements. I was worried that I may forget which way the BK/HLT switch is set and the BCS will be calling for heat in the BK and I have it turned off. By turning the LED on based on power from the SSR, I will have a visual reminder if no lights are blinking.
 
ok, along the lines of an estop for my 50amp setup.. I'd need the switch and the contractor? For some reason, though I've read the thread already, my brain is not picking up on how it works.
 

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