Nano nano brewery question?

So, I have a question for all you experienced brewers out there:

Nearly every brewery has a flagship beer, the one which they sell and produce in high quantities, whether it be a full fledged brewery, a pubhouse, a microbrewery, etc...

My question though, is could it be possible to, instead of brewing one type of beer in massive quantities, to produce tons of different types of beer in super small quantities (i.e., sell 50 different types of beer made in 5 gal batches, rather than making 2 different kinds in massive bbl batches). I know there's the whole economies of scale argument, but you could still buy the hops, yeast, etc... in bulk couldn't you?

I don't think there'd be anyway to run a business like that, consider the amount of time you put into one 5 gallon brew... And to get 50 beers out of it, you'd have to sell it at a premium to pay for your time, licenses, building, equipment, ingredients, bottles. Not to mention the logistics of selling beer like that.

A brew pub would be the only way, and still, i would think you'd want to make bigger batches. If it takes 6 hours of labor for one 5 gallon batch and 10 hours for one 50 gallon batch, which would you do?

Not to mention the time it takes to build up a clientele for your beer... It has to be recognized, and talked about before you'll get many customers.

Having a 'flagship' brew is just one of many brews produced by so many breweries. They sell a LOT of that, so they make a lot in order to keep people supplied. They also brew other beers, to flesh out their line.

IMO, having '50 different types of beer' is a nightmare in the making. It's not so much the ingredients cost, as the time it takes and fermenters you'll need to have on hand. Once you get to the nano scale, you're brewing in barrel increments, not 5 gallon batches. This is so that you can keep the cost per unit (bottle or keg) more reasonable both for you and the people buying it.

Check around at your area/local brewpubs and small breweries to see just how many brews they produce. I'm sure they'll have some seasonal recipes, but chances are they'll also have several that are produced year round. Just as likely, if a recipe doesn't sell well, they [probably] won't brew it again, or all that often.

BTW, breweries very often make test batches of recipes before committing their full size fermenters to it. A test batch can be almost any size, as long as they can scale it up. Some still have either a 1bbl or even .5bbl system to use for this. That way they can provide a taste to enough people to get a wide range of feedback on it. At least this is done while developing a new recipe. Once it's decided that it's going into production, they don't need to produce test batches.

Also, from conversations I've had with people at brew pubs, a batch (for them it's in the 10-13bbl range) takes maybe 6-8 hours from crush to pitch.

So it's about time and space for that many fermenters that makes it implausible? I realize that there aren't any breweries that realistically make 50 different types, but I guess I was just wondering if it was possible. Also, does brewing in larger batches keep costs down on a per unit basis because of the distribution of overhead costs; because theoretically if you bought in bulk for ingredients, the supplies would cost the same on a per unit basis regardless of batch size, right?

It's not a bad idea. I would just make one batch, no matter the size, of different beers. That is the way a lot of brewpubs/small breweries run. I always think of "flagship" beers as something mid and large sized breweries have. As a brewer who wants to make the same beer over and over and over again?

Also, I guess I'd mean rather than brewing one 5 gal batch at a time, brewing multiple 5 gal batches at once, to achieve volume required. I realize that commercial breweries use BBL not gal size batches, but I'm hashing theoreticals right now ha.

Smaller breweries (and probably the big ones too) tend to do one batch/recipe per day. They have enough fermenters so that by the time they need an empty one, a batch has already moved out of it.

Overhead costs will be a huge factor in the cost per glass/bottle. It's going to cost you the same for labor (you and your assistant), lights, heating, etc. You might save some on what's used to heat, and chill, the wort but that's about all.

I'm hoping to progress from batches that are 6 gallons into serving kegs (I use two 3 gallon kegs per batch, typically) to larger batch sizes. Right now, I'm limited by where I am and brewing alone. I have a big brew planned for the weekend of the 27th that will require some assistance. Mostly to get the mash tun off the burner (it's going to be full with almost 30# of grain), and probably lift the boil keggle to that burner. I plan on doing a caramelizing boil for the batch, in another pot, so I might draw some of the wort off before lifting it to the burner.

Next place I move to, I plan on getting/making a dedicated brewing structure/area where I'll be able to have a stand, or system, to make it easier on me.

BTW, I have a recipe (my MO SMaSH) that I want to keep a supply of at all times. So, I'm brewing it often. Probably 2-4 batches between times when I brew that recipe again. I brewed it on the 6th, so I should be ok for a bit. I also have three beer fermenters to use, so I'm setting my brewing schedule according to when those are available. I can normally stagger different batches so that I'll have one available, or becoming available, by the time I want to brew again. Right now two of them are empty, which is why I'm brewing this weekend (or around then) and then again the following weekend. By the time that third batch goes into fermenter, the batch from the 6th will either be in keg, or will be going into keg.

I think the biggest challenge would be selling 50 different beers. For a nano, bottling is a pretty innefficient means of distribution although the margin on bottles is a bit higher. Kegs are a ton easier.... either you would have to sell those beers... or else why bother?

So the question isn't entirely "can you make em?"... it's "can you sell em?" I think it is difficult enough to get one or two really good selling beers... or at least good enough to make your money back... you're talking about trying to hit the nail on the head 50 out of 50 times.

Then... what if you DO find a handul of beers that people like? You won't be able to remotely keep up that kind of production schedule and supply folks with the beer they like. Now you're stuck making a bunch of beers people don't want and no where near enough of the ones they do.

Wouldn't you just be able to stop making the ones that people didn't like though, and use the now available capacity towards making the ones that they do? Thank you also for everyone who has been giving input, I enjoy hearing all the opinions.

of course... but why go through the hassle in the first place and waste all of the time and resources?

First of all, brewing commercially on a 5 gallons system is insane... but you probably already know that..

Second, I would tend to say that although unconventional and challenging on the logistics side, it could be a great differentiator to brew many styles..

I think there is at least one brew pub that does it on the 1 bbl level IIRC..

Don't remember the name but they were interviewed on the brewing network a while ago..

Phunhog said:

It's not a bad idea. I would just make one batch, no matter the size, of different beers. That is the way a lot of brewpubs/small breweries run. I always think of "flagship" beers as something mid and large sized breweries have. As a brewer who wants to make the same beer over and over and over again?

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I saw a quote from a micro head brewer somewhere, talking about their "flagship" beer. Basically it was a blonde or something = easy drinking and not to aggresive that those out of the craft scene would not be able to handle it. He said that that beer was cheap to produce and he sold a lot of it. That beer was the reason he was still in business, without the high margin and high sales he got he would not be able to afford to run his brewery.
As a commercial brewer it is not what you want, it is what your customers want (that is if you want to run a profitable business). If you have a metric buttload of cash and you want to do something fun for a job and don't care if you get paid (or even end up spending your own money to keep the business running) then yes you can run a comercial brewery and only brew what you want to drink

mverkruyse said:

Also, I guess I'd mean rather than brewing one 5 gal batch at a time, brewing multiple 5 gal batches at once, to achieve volume required. I realize that commercial breweries use BBL not gal size batches, but I'm hashing theoreticals right now ha.

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Your minimum buy in to operate at a brewpub size nano or micro or whatever term you apply is most likely going to be in the 2bbl range and it willl keep you quite busy especially if you end up with a good response.

There is a place here that brews on a 2bbl system and he has an awesome product, but he is brewing just about every day of the week to keep up with demand. He runs it as a taphouse and just recently added food, he has expanded each year he has been open and is now upgrading to a larger system which will allow him a considerable amount of flexibility and time to himself. Test batches on the 2bbl, popular brews on the larger system etc.

I brew on a 3bbl system and have easily kept 7 beers on tap at the place I work. The thing people misss is that regardless of the bbl size of the equipment it all takes pretty much the same amount of time to brew as your little 5gal home setup, the only real difference is scale. Instead of using 2lbs of pale you use 165lbs, but the mash time is still 45 minutes, boil time is still 60/90/120 etc. recirc still runs 15 minutes or whatever you prefer, although your transfer times may vary depending on how you are doing the transfer (pump, gravity etc.).

Sure you "could" run a taphouse on a 5gallon setup, but why would you want the extra work, efficiency issues etc. when you can overall improve each of these by saving up and purchasing even a 1bbl system which in the end puts you money ahead.

mverkruyse said:

Wouldn't you just be able to stop making the ones that people didn't like though, and use the now available capacity towards making the ones that they do? Thank you also for everyone who has been giving input, I enjoy hearing all the opinions.

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Hopefully my point above was clear, but just in case it is not I will try and clarify it:
Yes you would be able to stop brewing the ones they don't like and only brew the ones they like. Most likely there will be "the ONE" that is more popular than the others so this will be getting brewed more and more until you have the moment when you realise "hey wait a minute... I have a flagship beer... how did that happen?"

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mverkruyse said:

Wouldn't you just be able to stop making the ones that people didn't like though, and use the now available capacity towards making the ones that they do? Thank you also for everyone who has been giving input, I enjoy hearing all the opinions.

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The logistics of brewing 50 beers to have on tap at all times is insane. A more reasonable endeavor would be to have 50 recipes that you brew, but only 12-13 are available quarterly. That is much more reasonable and can flesh out your seasonal offerings, your crazy beers, and your usuals.

From a business standpoint, stand alone nanos are very difficult. Every cent pretty much has to go into growing your business. You either increase capacity or you work yourself to death for peanuts. Beer is a pure volume business.

Brewpubs can get away with smaller systems because the beer is only a portion of the revenue. Food sales will be as important or more so.

Cheers!

mverkruyse said:

Wouldn't you just be able to stop making the ones that people didn't like though, and use the now available capacity towards making the ones that they do? Thank you also for everyone who has been giving input, I enjoy hearing all the opinions.

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You could easily do just that, but again why at such as small scale?

At 5 gallons if you get a good response to a single brew and someone heads off to grab a friend to bring back it could be gone just that fast. On the other hand if you were to do it say on a 1 or 2bbl system you would have a couple of days of beer so it gets good exposure and good consistency (a whole other argument) from a single batch. If it takes off then a double batch or even a triple if you have the fermenter space to handle it.

Our primary sales drivers get brewed in double batches (6bbl) which is 3 beers, we have a Hefe we brew on single batch about every other week and then a revolving lineup of both new and old recipes on a 3bbl batch.

What this does is kind of two birds with one stone method. make enough to allow full exposure for our volume of business, but also keep it in constant rotation with new recipes and old favorites. This gives customers a reason to stop in more regular to see or taste whats new on tap, it also gives us a chance to experiment with new recipes and styles with regularity and see what they respond to. we can always brew another batch at any point although I like to try and give a couple months before putting the same brew back on tap because it creates a slight "buzz".

So anyone had a read of this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/brewery-incubator-build-brew-pub-360930/
Also this one from NZ: http://garageproject.co.nz/ - but they specifically went into to build a brand and not make money/vloumes initially, they now have expanded to a full microbrewery size.

mverkruyse said:

So it's about time and space for that many fermenters that makes it implausible? I realize that there aren't any breweries that realistically make 50 different types, but I guess I was just wondering if it was possible. Also, does brewing in larger batches keep costs down on a per unit basis because of the distribution of overhead costs; because theoretically if you bought in bulk for ingredients, the supplies would cost the same on a per unit basis regardless of batch size, right?

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Two biggest expenses: labor and packaging. Believe it or not, as you scale up, material costs become rather, erm, immaterial. Read some Charlie Bamforth.

tektonjp said:

Two biggest expenses: labor and packaging. Believe it or not, as you scale up, material costs become rather, erm, immaterial. Read some Charlie Bamforth.

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Not at all surprised. Pretty common for per item costs to go down as you purchase more of them. Price a case of long neck bottles, then compare the per unit cost to a pallet load of them. Similar to how it is with group grain buys. Get one pallet load and compare the per sack price when you go to two or three pallets.

I don't know if you're going into business or just asking an interesting question. But reading the replies gave me an idea; why not brew a 20 gallon (or larger) batch and split it into many smaller batches (say, 5 gallons). Then make different beers through your fermentation process. Rack some onto interesting flavors like fruits or herbs. Dry/wet hop some. Use different yeasts, different temps. You could make MANY different types of beer from the same wort. Hell, as consumers get more savvy, this could even be a business model. You have to have a house beer though, for all the reasons stated above.

Aside from the efficiency and scale issues addressed above, I suspect the TTB and your state ABC would not be very willing to hand out licenses to a brewery that plans to use a bunch of buckets on the ground as fermentors.

As an alternative you could brew a handful of recipes but keg them with different keg additions and put them all on tap, like a blonde ale kegged straight, dry hopped with different hops/hop blends, oaked, with fruit, etc.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Aside from the efficiency and scale issues addressed above, I suspect the TTB and your state ABC would not be very willing to hand out licenses to a brewery that plans to use a bunch of buckets on the ground as fermentors.

As an alternative you could brew a handful of recipes but keg them with different keg additions and put them all on tap, like a blonde ale kegged straight, dry hopped with different hops/hop blends, oaked, with fruit, etc.

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I know a couple of licensed nano's in CA that at least started that way...buckets in a fermentation room. Most eventually upgraded to at least Blichmann conicals.